I am very proud of the UC Berkley protesters
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Majerus wrote:
Using your definition of peaceable explain to me how Westboro Baptist protests are peaceable? What about all those abortion clinic protesters?
Just because some protests do not end with pepper spray does not make them legal, or in the right. Fact is there is biasm in what is allowed. Maybe that is not fair, but if you do break the law you can't gripe. If you are speeding down the highway behind some other speeder and get pulled over, it is not a valid argument to say "But the guy in front of me was going just as fast if not faster"
Majerus wrote:
That's your unsupported opinion. I've provided plenty of court decisions to back up my opinion. You've got nothing more than a cherry picked definition of a single word.
Actually it is not my opinion. The reason the police were called was because of disorder.
Majerus wrote:
It's rock solid. Your definition for "peaceable" is a big fail.
You should really look closely at federal rulings. As they are the ones that determine what the ammendments and constition means. There have been numerous cases where speech was supressed due to protection of the state. Granted, I think many of them were incorrect rulings. But with them over time the courts began to determine more what it means to be peacable. And in todays world it is quite clear. Don't EF with societal flow and you can say what ever and do what ever the heck you want. You start rocking the boat too much and pissing people off you are breaking the law. You can say you think it is wrong and the first ammendment protects you. You are wrong. Take a look around. We do not live in the 16th century. Certain things can not be said in certain contexts. And certain actions can not be done in certain places. If you do not like it, go start your own hippie commune live naked and smoke what you want. Because the ammendments do allow you to do that. Just stay the f*ck out of the rest of societies way. Because if you come out of your little commune trying to push your hippie beliefs on the rest of us, we will lock you up and forget about you. Nuf' said.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Just because some protests do not end with pepper spray does not make them legal, or in the right.
That may be true, but the protests that I asked you about are legal. So have you dropped your peaceable argument? If not answer the question.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
The reason the police were called was because of disorder.
I don't think that is correct. I think that this is soley you opionion. I'd like to see you source on that. I'm aware of one excuse that brought the police to the quad and it wasn't disorder.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You should really look closely at federal rulings.
I have looked at plenty. But I see no reason to make your arguments for you. On the rest, I will agree that the 1st amendment is slowly being eroded and constitutional rights are being trampled on. But that hasn't been what this discussion has been about. All along you have claimed that the amendment itself and the word 'peaceably' made it toothless. I'm glad to see you've decided to drop that.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Just because some protests do not end with pepper spray does not make them legal, or in the right.
That may be true, but the protests that I asked you about are legal. So have you dropped your peaceable argument? If not answer the question.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
The reason the police were called was because of disorder.
I don't think that is correct. I think that this is soley you opionion. I'd like to see you source on that. I'm aware of one excuse that brought the police to the quad and it wasn't disorder.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You should really look closely at federal rulings.
I have looked at plenty. But I see no reason to make your arguments for you. On the rest, I will agree that the 1st amendment is slowly being eroded and constitutional rights are being trampled on. But that hasn't been what this discussion has been about. All along you have claimed that the amendment itself and the word 'peaceably' made it toothless. I'm glad to see you've decided to drop that.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
You have misread entirely what I said. In summary, the constition is not to be interpreted and followed out by you. It is interpreted by Judges elected by society. It is then carried out by police forces who are run by elected officials, elected by scoiety. And it is to then be questioned by again more officials elected by society (DA etc.) Not you. Society over the years has clearly shown what they think peacable means. Don't f*ck with its normal activity. You can say what you want when you want and how you want. So long as it (society) does not have to listen if it does not want to. And so long as it can continue to function as it sees fit.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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You have misread entirely what I said. In summary, the constition is not to be interpreted and followed out by you. It is interpreted by Judges elected by society. It is then carried out by police forces who are run by elected officials, elected by scoiety. And it is to then be questioned by again more officials elected by society (DA etc.) Not you. Society over the years has clearly shown what they think peacable means. Don't f*ck with its normal activity. You can say what you want when you want and how you want. So long as it (society) does not have to listen if it does not want to. And so long as it can continue to function as it sees fit.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You have misread entirely what I said.
No, not at all.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
In summary, the constition is not to be interpreted and followed out by you. It is interpreted by Judges elected by society. It is then carried out by police forces who are run by elected officials, elected by scoiety. And it is to then be questioned by again more officials elected by society (DA etc.)
I have never disputed that.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Don't f*ck with its normal activity. You can say what you want when you want and how you want. So long as it (society) does not have to listen if it does not want to. And so long as it can continue to function as it sees fit.
that's simply untrue. Case in point - Westboro Baptist. At another level you are also wrong. There is some truth that the rich and powerful will sic the police against groups they do not like. They often get away with it, but it is still neither constitutional nor legal. And that small group of powerful people are not society. Quit with the 'peaceable' argument. Explain Westboro.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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jschell wrote:
So you are claiming that tens of thousands of protesters have not been arrested over the last 200 years for breaking laws?
Of course not. Arrests are not proof of anything other a policeman chose to arrest someone.
jschell wrote:
Spin it anyway you want. It didn't make pepper spray illegal.
For the 2nd time - I haven't argued that pepper spray is illegal.
jschell wrote:
You however have no understanding of limited use restrictions.
Of course I understand. I also understand that the 1st amendment is supreme. There are some exceptions carved out by the courts.
jschell wrote:
Sigh...you don't appear to know what you are arguing.
Don't expect me to be impressed. I provided a court case that is very much on point with what happened at UC-Davis. This court found the use of pepper spray unreasonable.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
Majerus wrote:
Of course I understand. I also understand that the 1st amendment is supreme.
You are wrong. But to be fair I think that most active protesters have the same belief. I am however certain that at least some actually understand what impact limited use restrictions have. That is why they can actively plan activities which are intentionally supposed to lead to arrests.
Majerus wrote:
Don't expect me to be impressed. I provided a court case that is very much on point with what happened at UC-Davis. This court found the use of pepper spray unreasonable.
You said "it was determined that any use was unreasonable." That pretty much sums up your argument. That statement is wrong. And you are misreading the case you cited completely.
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Your willful ignorance cannot be disputed.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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jschell wrote:
What exactly do you not understand in the following statement?
The protesters broke a law. They were arrested for breaking that law. They were not arrested for what they were saying. Free speech does not preempt other laws.jschell wrote:
Which would be valid if it had anything to do with what I said.
It's quite straight forward. You've have repeatedly claimed that "restriced use" always trumps the 1st amemdment. I'm not sure why you bring this up now. It's not what I was responding to. I understand your statement, it just doesn't mean anything.
jschell wrote:
The protesters broke a law.
Prove it. Were they all convicted of something? Were any?
jschell wrote:
They were not arrested for what they were saying.
What makes you so sure? They were exercising their 1st amendment rights and they were arrested. There you have a prima facie case for being arrest for their speech.
jschell wrote:
Free speech does not preempt other laws.
Of course it does. The language of the 1st amendment is quite clear on this point.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
Majerus wrote:
It's quite straight forward. You've have repeatedly claimed that "restriced use" always trumps the 1st amemdment.
Since I don't make absolute statements, that of course is not what I said. There are numerous cases where legal government bodies in the US have decided to ignore use restrictions to allow events which are often related to protests. The fact that the chose to do so however doesn't make it legal, it just makes it unenforced.
Majerus wrote:
Prove it. Were they all convicted of something? Were any?
Law breakers are often released at the discretion of prosecutors. And I already pointed out a significant reason for doing that for protesters - because of the cost of jury trials for large numbers of them. Doesn't mean a law wasn't broken.
Majerus wrote:
What makes you so sure? They were exercising their 1st amendment rights and they were arrested. There you have a prima facie case for being arrest for their speech.
This is where your ignorance is showing - your inability to distinguish that the first amendment is and what it isn't. It isn't a free pass. The Animal Liberation Front takes actions specifically intended to protest the way animals are treated. Their very actions are the protest. Yet when they are caught they are sent to jail. The following specifically shows that this was a protest, a political statement. http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Actions-USA/DenverSheepskinFire.htm[^] Following shows that expression is not protected. http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17364102[^] Contrast this with the following. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/22/go-topless-day-protest-at_n_932657.html#s334869&title=Nadine_Gary[
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You have quoted the first ammendment correctly but what you bolded you should re-read. Specicially "The Right of the people peacably to assemble" This point is very clear, but somehow missed by most. The first ammendment does not grant you the right to plant your ass where ever you want, public property or not. If you are causing a disturbance, it is not peacably. If you allow people to assemble where ever they want people could protest on Interstates during rush hours, subway tracks, Libraries, Yell Fire in crowded areas, and yes have hate speach in intentionally conflicting areas. All which I have listed would NOT be peacably assembling. If a protest occurred as such it would be for the intention of causing disorder, which by definition is not peacably. Most of the "Occupy" demonstrations are for that purpose, to cause chaos and disorder. And they are not protected by the first ammendment for that reason.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You have quoted the first ammendment correctly but what you bolded you should re-read....
Either you phrased your post very badly or you have no understanding about what you are talking about. Your post seems to suggest that either protesters were arrested for what they were saying and/or that they lost the right because of their actions. And both of those are utter nonsense.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You have quoted the first ammendment correctly but what you bolded you should re-read....
Either you phrased your post very badly or you have no understanding about what you are talking about. Your post seems to suggest that either protesters were arrested for what they were saying and/or that they lost the right because of their actions. And both of those are utter nonsense.
They did not loose their rights to be camping where they were.... They never had them. Occupy the 'public' park across the street from my house and I will attempt to remove you if the police do not. Free speech does not give the right to be where ever you want.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Majerus wrote:
It's quite straight forward. You've have repeatedly claimed that "restriced use" always trumps the 1st amemdment.
Since I don't make absolute statements, that of course is not what I said. There are numerous cases where legal government bodies in the US have decided to ignore use restrictions to allow events which are often related to protests. The fact that the chose to do so however doesn't make it legal, it just makes it unenforced.
Majerus wrote:
Prove it. Were they all convicted of something? Were any?
Law breakers are often released at the discretion of prosecutors. And I already pointed out a significant reason for doing that for protesters - because of the cost of jury trials for large numbers of them. Doesn't mean a law wasn't broken.
Majerus wrote:
What makes you so sure? They were exercising their 1st amendment rights and they were arrested. There you have a prima facie case for being arrest for their speech.
This is where your ignorance is showing - your inability to distinguish that the first amendment is and what it isn't. It isn't a free pass. The Animal Liberation Front takes actions specifically intended to protest the way animals are treated. Their very actions are the protest. Yet when they are caught they are sent to jail. The following specifically shows that this was a protest, a political statement. http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/Actions-USA/DenverSheepskinFire.htm[^] Following shows that expression is not protected. http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_17364102[^] Contrast this with the following. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/22/go-topless-day-protest-at_n_932657.html#s334869&title=Nadine_Gary[
jschell wrote:
Since I don't make absolute statements, that of course is not what I said.
Still sounds like that is exactly what you are saying. In the next statement you won't concede any more than that the authorities ignore lawbreaking.
jschell wrote:
There are numerous cases where legal government bodies in the US have decided to ignore use restrictions to allow events which are often related to protests.
Well, you've still got it wrong. The 1st amendment is clear "Congress shall make no law". The court has carved out some exceptions, but one is not simply allowed to protest, one has the constitutional right to do so.
jschell wrote:
And I already pointed out a significant reason for doing that for protesters - because of the cost of jury trials for large numbers of them.
Doesn't mean a law wasn't broken.And you haven't shown that any law was broken.
jschell wrote:
It isn't a free pass.
Never said it was. Arson? Really? You're comparing people gathering on the quad to arson?
jschell wrote:
Doesn't alter the fact that a law was specifically being broken by some of the participants.
You keep saying it's a fact, but you have yet to support that claim and I've given ample opportunity for you to do so.
jschell wrote:
If, by way of your claim, free expression was absolute
I have never claimed that it is absolute. Numerous times during our conversation I have stated that there are exceptions.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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Majerus wrote:
Of course I understand. I also understand that the 1st amendment is supreme.
You are wrong. But to be fair I think that most active protesters have the same belief. I am however certain that at least some actually understand what impact limited use restrictions have. That is why they can actively plan activities which are intentionally supposed to lead to arrests.
Majerus wrote:
Don't expect me to be impressed. I provided a court case that is very much on point with what happened at UC-Davis. This court found the use of pepper spray unreasonable.
You said "it was determined that any use was unreasonable." That pretty much sums up your argument. That statement is wrong. And you are misreading the case you cited completely.
jschell wrote:
You are wrong.
No, I'm not. Just look at the protests at abortion clinics or Westboro Baptist.
jschell wrote:
impact limited use restrictions have.
I'm sure they do, and so do I. But I'm afraid your incorrect in your belief that limited use trumps the first amendment, except in very limited areas.
jschell wrote:
"it was determined that any use was unreasonable."
It was, in this case. I was not making a blanket statement, I was referring to that particular case and how it supported my statements about the pepper spraying at the quad. It would appear that you are under the mistaken belief that I have been arguing that pepper spray is never justifiable. I have always been talking about UC-Davis and brought the Humbolt case into the discussion in support of that.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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jschell wrote:
You are wrong.
No, I'm not. Just look at the protests at abortion clinics or Westboro Baptist.
jschell wrote:
impact limited use restrictions have.
I'm sure they do, and so do I. But I'm afraid your incorrect in your belief that limited use trumps the first amendment, except in very limited areas.
jschell wrote:
"it was determined that any use was unreasonable."
It was, in this case. I was not making a blanket statement, I was referring to that particular case and how it supported my statements about the pepper spraying at the quad. It would appear that you are under the mistaken belief that I have been arguing that pepper spray is never justifiable. I have always been talking about UC-Davis and brought the Humbolt case into the discussion in support of that.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
Majerus wrote:
No, I'm not. Just look at the protests at abortion clinics or Westboro Baptist.
I suggest you look into the use restrictions of the locations of those protests.
Majerus wrote:
But I'm afraid your incorrect in your belief that limited use trumps the first amendment, except in very limited areas.
Again...tens of thousands of arrests over the years demonstrates you are wrong.
Majerus wrote:
I was not making a blanket statement,
Then your statements as a group was confusing. As an example see the statement that you made below. That would suggest to me that you do not approve of it for any reason.. "If you want to argue that pepper-spraying does not rise to the legal definition of torture - that's fine, I won't disagree. Doesn't change that what they did was unjustified and police brutality. And I'll still call it torture."
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jschell wrote:
Since I don't make absolute statements, that of course is not what I said.
Still sounds like that is exactly what you are saying. In the next statement you won't concede any more than that the authorities ignore lawbreaking.
jschell wrote:
There are numerous cases where legal government bodies in the US have decided to ignore use restrictions to allow events which are often related to protests.
Well, you've still got it wrong. The 1st amendment is clear "Congress shall make no law". The court has carved out some exceptions, but one is not simply allowed to protest, one has the constitutional right to do so.
jschell wrote:
And I already pointed out a significant reason for doing that for protesters - because of the cost of jury trials for large numbers of them.
Doesn't mean a law wasn't broken.And you haven't shown that any law was broken.
jschell wrote:
It isn't a free pass.
Never said it was. Arson? Really? You're comparing people gathering on the quad to arson?
jschell wrote:
Doesn't alter the fact that a law was specifically being broken by some of the participants.
You keep saying it's a fact, but you have yet to support that claim and I've given ample opportunity for you to do so.
jschell wrote:
If, by way of your claim, free expression was absolute
I have never claimed that it is absolute. Numerous times during our conversation I have stated that there are exceptions.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
Majerus wrote:
In the next statement you won't concede any more than that the authorities ignore lawbreaking.
Because they do. And they say exactly that as well.
Majerus wrote:
but one is not simply allowed to protest, one has the constitutional right to do so
Repeating it over and over again isn't going to prove your point.
Majerus wrote:
And you haven't shown that any law was broken.
So you think that tens of thousands of protesters have been arrested solely to curtail their free speech rights? Such a sad view.
Majerus wrote:
Arson? Really? You're comparing people gathering on the quad to arson?
You are the one that is claiming that free speech both is an unlimited free pass and yet isn't at the same time. I am pointing out to you that no one gets arrested for "free speech". They get arrested for other completely valid laws. And free speech doesn't trump the domain of those other laws.
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They did not loose their rights to be camping where they were.... They never had them. Occupy the 'public' park across the street from my house and I will attempt to remove you if the police do not. Free speech does not give the right to be where ever you want.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
They did not loose their rights to be camping where they were.... They never had them.
Occupy the 'public' park across the street from my house and I will attempt to remove you if the police do not.
Free speech does not give the right to be where ever you want.Then your previous post was phrased badly.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
They did not loose their rights to be camping where they were.... They never had them.
Occupy the 'public' park across the street from my house and I will attempt to remove you if the police do not.
Free speech does not give the right to be where ever you want.Then your previous post was phrased badly.
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Majerus wrote:
No, I'm not. Just look at the protests at abortion clinics or Westboro Baptist.
I suggest you look into the use restrictions of the locations of those protests.
Majerus wrote:
But I'm afraid your incorrect in your belief that limited use trumps the first amendment, except in very limited areas.
Again...tens of thousands of arrests over the years demonstrates you are wrong.
Majerus wrote:
I was not making a blanket statement,
Then your statements as a group was confusing. As an example see the statement that you made below. That would suggest to me that you do not approve of it for any reason.. "If you want to argue that pepper-spraying does not rise to the legal definition of torture - that's fine, I won't disagree. Doesn't change that what they did was unjustified and police brutality. And I'll still call it torture."
jschell wrote:
I suggest you look into the use restrictions of the locations of those protests.
Why? If you think that is the key ingredient, prove it. I really would like to understand why you think that Westboro is so difficult to silence, if you really believe that the first amendment is so toothless that any jurisdicition can silence it with a simple zoning change.
jschell wrote:
Again...tens of thousands of arrests over the years demonstrates you are wrong.
That's patently absurd. Arrests prove nothing. Case in point, UC-Davis. Who was charged? What were they charged with? No trials, no convictions. You seem to have forgotten that an arrest is not the same as a conviction, nor is it proof that a law was broken.
jschell wrote:
you do not approve of it for any reason..
Oh, it has it's purpose. As a substitute for deadly force.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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Majerus wrote:
In the next statement you won't concede any more than that the authorities ignore lawbreaking.
Because they do. And they say exactly that as well.
Majerus wrote:
but one is not simply allowed to protest, one has the constitutional right to do so
Repeating it over and over again isn't going to prove your point.
Majerus wrote:
And you haven't shown that any law was broken.
So you think that tens of thousands of protesters have been arrested solely to curtail their free speech rights? Such a sad view.
Majerus wrote:
Arson? Really? You're comparing people gathering on the quad to arson?
You are the one that is claiming that free speech both is an unlimited free pass and yet isn't at the same time. I am pointing out to you that no one gets arrested for "free speech". They get arrested for other completely valid laws. And free speech doesn't trump the domain of those other laws.
jschell wrote:
Because they do. And they say exactly that as well.
Really? Everywhere, all the time? Even if that were true, An arrest is not proof that a law was broken. That's what trials are for.
jschell wrote:
but one is not simply allowed to protest, one has the constitutional right to do
soRepeating it over and over again isn't going to prove your point.
That's just plain bizarre. We have the first amendment. That is not up for debate.
jschell wrote:
So you think that tens of thousands of protesters have been arrested solely to curtail their free speech rights?
Quite often. You actually believe it doesn't happen?
jschell wrote:
You are the one that is claiming that free speech both is an unlimited free pass and yet isn't at the same time.
I do not. I've been very clear. Over and over again I have acknowledged that the courts have set some narrow limits.
jschell wrote:
And free speech doesn't trump the domain of those other laws.
Yeah, mostly it does.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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jschell wrote:
I suggest you look into the use restrictions of the locations of those protests.
Why? If you think that is the key ingredient, prove it. I really would like to understand why you think that Westboro is so difficult to silence, if you really believe that the first amendment is so toothless that any jurisdicition can silence it with a simple zoning change.
jschell wrote:
Again...tens of thousands of arrests over the years demonstrates you are wrong.
That's patently absurd. Arrests prove nothing. Case in point, UC-Davis. Who was charged? What were they charged with? No trials, no convictions. You seem to have forgotten that an arrest is not the same as a conviction, nor is it proof that a law was broken.
jschell wrote:
you do not approve of it for any reason..
Oh, it has it's purpose. As a substitute for deadly force.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
Majerus wrote:
Why? If you think that is the key ingredient, prove it.
As I stated numerous times the protesters knew they were going to be arrested. That there seems completely sufficient to "prove it".
Majerus wrote:
I really would like to understand why you think that Westboro is so difficult to silence, if you really believe that the first amendment is so toothless that any jurisdicition can silence it with a simple zoning change.
Utter nonsense since I said nothing like that.
Majerus wrote:
That's patently absurd. Arrests prove nothing. Case in point, UC-Davis. Who was charged? What were they charged with? No trials, no convictions. You seem to have forgotten that an arrest is not the same as a conviction, nor is it proof that a law was broken.
Your statement would only be meaningful if I had not addressed is specifically previously. First you seem to be claiming that tens of thousands of arrests in the last 30 years were specifically intended to restrict the protesters right of free speech. And further that this has been allowed to go on all this time without reprecussions. At the same time completely ignoring numerous (many) cases of free speech infringement which were in fact dealt with in the courts. Second, as I have said repeatedly, the fact that someone is not charged nor convicted is NOT the sole factor in whether a law was broken. Even straight up criminal cases are dismissed for various reasons. But protesters often SPECIFICALLY create a sitation where it is unreasonable to proceed not because a law wasn't broken BUT because the load on the court system and cost is not WORTH it. Do you not know that that is a specific tactic in protesters? Or do you just not understand how this tactic works? Or perhaps you think the court systems are not overloaded and/or do not cost anything?
Majerus wrote:
As a substitute for deadly force.
I can only suppose you have no idea how crowd control works nor what the consequences are when crowd control fails. Or perhaps you are just suggesting that it would be better to wait for the rioting to start and then start shooting people.
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jschell wrote:
Because they do. And they say exactly that as well.
Really? Everywhere, all the time? Even if that were true, An arrest is not proof that a law was broken. That's what trials are for.
jschell wrote:
but one is not simply allowed to protest, one has the constitutional right to do
soRepeating it over and over again isn't going to prove your point.
That's just plain bizarre. We have the first amendment. That is not up for debate.
jschell wrote:
So you think that tens of thousands of protesters have been arrested solely to curtail their free speech rights?
Quite often. You actually believe it doesn't happen?
jschell wrote:
You are the one that is claiming that free speech both is an unlimited free pass and yet isn't at the same time.
I do not. I've been very clear. Over and over again I have acknowledged that the courts have set some narrow limits.
jschell wrote:
And free speech doesn't trump the domain of those other laws.
Yeah, mostly it does.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
Majerus wrote:
Really? Everywhere, all the time?
You are kidding right? What exactly do you think the point of a "plea bargain" is? Or do you think it is very rare?
Majerus wrote:
An arrest is not proof that a law was broken. That's what trials are for.
Utter nonsense which completely ignores the reality of the modern US court system.
Majerus wrote:
We have the first amendment. That is not up for debate.
I agree. But no one was arrested for what they were saying. You seem incapable of grasping that.
Majerus wrote:
Quite often. You actually believe it doesn't happen?
Ahh...that explains much... So you really believe that some really trivial free speech cases go to court and some even go to trial and appeal and yet blatant and vast abuse is allowed to proceeed without pause. I suppose you also have the idea that the court systems are involved in this vast conspiracy as well since these days any arrest of a protester is almost immediately followed by a request for hearing on exactly what you are claiming, that they were arrested to curtail their free speech, and the courts almost always disagree. But given that you think this vast and odd conspiracy exists then of course it is obvious why you have the view that you do.
Majerus wrote:
Yeah, mostly it does.
Nope. Oh wait a minute...with the vast conspiracy it does. But in the real world, most protesters are given reasonable latitude even when they completely ignore rules that would get the normal citizen (the ones not claiming that they were protesting) a date with a court. And absolutely no problems when protesters actually follow the rules that the rest of civilized society must. But when the stop following the rules they get arrested. For breaking the rules. Not for what they are saying.
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Majerus wrote:
Why? If you think that is the key ingredient, prove it.
As I stated numerous times the protesters knew they were going to be arrested. That there seems completely sufficient to "prove it".
Majerus wrote:
I really would like to understand why you think that Westboro is so difficult to silence, if you really believe that the first amendment is so toothless that any jurisdicition can silence it with a simple zoning change.
Utter nonsense since I said nothing like that.
Majerus wrote:
That's patently absurd. Arrests prove nothing. Case in point, UC-Davis. Who was charged? What were they charged with? No trials, no convictions. You seem to have forgotten that an arrest is not the same as a conviction, nor is it proof that a law was broken.
Your statement would only be meaningful if I had not addressed is specifically previously. First you seem to be claiming that tens of thousands of arrests in the last 30 years were specifically intended to restrict the protesters right of free speech. And further that this has been allowed to go on all this time without reprecussions. At the same time completely ignoring numerous (many) cases of free speech infringement which were in fact dealt with in the courts. Second, as I have said repeatedly, the fact that someone is not charged nor convicted is NOT the sole factor in whether a law was broken. Even straight up criminal cases are dismissed for various reasons. But protesters often SPECIFICALLY create a sitation where it is unreasonable to proceed not because a law wasn't broken BUT because the load on the court system and cost is not WORTH it. Do you not know that that is a specific tactic in protesters? Or do you just not understand how this tactic works? Or perhaps you think the court systems are not overloaded and/or do not cost anything?
Majerus wrote:
As a substitute for deadly force.
I can only suppose you have no idea how crowd control works nor what the consequences are when crowd control fails. Or perhaps you are just suggesting that it would be better to wait for the rioting to start and then start shooting people.
jschell wrote:
the protesters knew they were going to be arrested. That there seems completely sufficient to "prove it".
Actually, no it isn't. They knew they were going to be arrested because the police said they would be arrested.
jschell wrote:
Utter nonsense since I said nothing like that.
You have repeatedly said that "restricted use" trumps the 1st amendment. So why can't Westboro be silenced?
jschell wrote:
First you seem to be claiming that tens of thousands of arrests in the last 30 years were specifically intended to restrict the protesters right of free speech.
No, I did not. I said it happened 'Quite often'.
jschell wrote:
And further that this has been allowed to go on all this time without reprecussions
I said nothing at all about repercussions.
jschell wrote:
At the same time completely ignoring numerous (many) cases of free speech infringement which were in fact dealt with in the courts.
No, I haven't ignored it. I have aknowledged that the courts have put some restrictions on speech.
jschell wrote:
Second, as I have said repeatedly, the fact that someone is not charged nor convicted is NOT the sole factor in whether a law was broken.
Maybe, but it has been your sole 'proof' that any law was broken.
jschell wrote:
But protesters often SPECIFICALLY create a sitation where it is unreasonable to proceed not because a law wasn't broken BUT because the load on the court system and cost is not WORTH it.
And many times the prosecutors do not proceed because they know they don't have a case.
jschell wrote:
I can only suppose you have no idea how crowd control works nor what the consequences are when crowd control fails. Or perhaps you are just suggesting that it would be better to wait for the rioting to start and then start shooting people.
LOL. Right. Before pepper spray the cops were utterly helpless. Their one and only recourse was to kill people.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass
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Majerus wrote:
Really? Everywhere, all the time?
You are kidding right? What exactly do you think the point of a "plea bargain" is? Or do you think it is very rare?
Majerus wrote:
An arrest is not proof that a law was broken. That's what trials are for.
Utter nonsense which completely ignores the reality of the modern US court system.
Majerus wrote:
We have the first amendment. That is not up for debate.
I agree. But no one was arrested for what they were saying. You seem incapable of grasping that.
Majerus wrote:
Quite often. You actually believe it doesn't happen?
Ahh...that explains much... So you really believe that some really trivial free speech cases go to court and some even go to trial and appeal and yet blatant and vast abuse is allowed to proceeed without pause. I suppose you also have the idea that the court systems are involved in this vast conspiracy as well since these days any arrest of a protester is almost immediately followed by a request for hearing on exactly what you are claiming, that they were arrested to curtail their free speech, and the courts almost always disagree. But given that you think this vast and odd conspiracy exists then of course it is obvious why you have the view that you do.
Majerus wrote:
Yeah, mostly it does.
Nope. Oh wait a minute...with the vast conspiracy it does. But in the real world, most protesters are given reasonable latitude even when they completely ignore rules that would get the normal citizen (the ones not claiming that they were protesting) a date with a court. And absolutely no problems when protesters actually follow the rules that the rest of civilized society must. But when the stop following the rules they get arrested. For breaking the rules. Not for what they are saying.
jschell wrote:
What exactly do you think the point of a "plea bargain" is?
Or do you think it is very rare?You seem to have forgotten what we have been talking about.
jschell wrote:
Utter nonsense which completely ignores the reality of the modern US court system.
And you seem to have forgotten that there were no plea bargains at UC-Davis. You can't even tell me what "charge" they were arrested for.
jschell wrote:
But no one was arrested for what they were saying.
Prove it. You haven't been able to cite any charges.
jschell wrote:
So you really believe...
I have no idea what you are talking about.
jschell wrote:
vast and odd conspiracy exists
What are you talking about?
jschell wrote:
But when the stop following the rules they get arrested. For breaking the rules. Not for what they are saying
What rules? The only evidence you cite that any rules were broken is the fact they got arrested.
The Left - Taking shit for being right since before you were born. - driftglass