On Rejecting Religious Morals (long post)

Paul Watson

Jason Henderson wrote: If there were no God, I understand your point. I no longer believe in God(s).

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Paul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...

Jason Henderson

Paul Watson wrote: I no longer believe in God(s). Just because Paul Watson doesn't believe, does that mean there isn't one? Remember that most religious people are probably just concerned about your wellbeing. They aren't trying to make you feel uncomfortable or shameful, they just want you to know what they think everyone should know.

Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *

Michael A Barnhart

Paul Watson wrote: sounds like you are saying that without Christianity or other religions we would not have anything to discern our morals from. I am saying that no one has shown me that with out religious principles involved, morals are not based on anything that is absolute. To me this implies that morals are then only what the current society feels are good. "I will find a new sig someday."

Chris Austin

Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Now how do others claim you are forcing Christianity down their throats from this? You are just asking to have moral values based on something other than relativist judgments. Being a Christian myself I'd like to play devil's advocate here. What many non-religious people may feel is that the line : "for the sake of humanity, retain the fundamental moral values of right and wrong that they teach" implies that only religious instructions have static morals values. Having many non-religious friends and family members I know this is not the case. Also, in their shoes I'd find this offending as well as condescending. Strong convictions are not the sole property of the religious. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.

Paul Watson

Michael A. Barnhart wrote: If this was at all easy to accomplish (or learn) we would not have "evil regime" after "evil regime" popping up. Just look at the 20th century alone Indeed I agree it is not easy and from the looks of things the 20th and present centuries are humans taking some terrible blind alleys in their exploration of for one thing morals. Because I do not believe in God(s) I do not have a heirarchacal view of humanity. I see it driving itself forward with a multitude of forks. The forks represent everything from the USA to North Korea to China to Europe to Africa. Each one is a subset of humanity exploring, probing and defining paths. Many of our current forks are quite scary and seemingly dead ends. Hopefully they will merge with the better forks or divert to an entirely new, and better, direction. To me, this is a more rewarding and ultimately better model than being led by a greater power. It is like the difference between being told the results of an expirement in school, or finding out yourself. The latter being more beneficial, instilling better things in oneself. Those experiments I did myself in school have stuck with me far longer than the ones only the teacher told us the results of. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: We are very unlikely to sway one another here but it is the basis for my disagreement with what I take to be "your view". On the whole religious theme I am very open as I often envy people with faith. So any logical, well thought out and provable (though I don't need physical evidence) part you can explain to me I will be more than happy to accept.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Paul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...

Paul Watson

Jason Henderson wrote: Just because Paul Watson doesn't believe, does that mean there isn't one? Indeed and I would be very disapointed in anyone who thought "Paul Watson does not think there is a God, so I don't either." I was just showing you were I am coming from with all of this. That my arguements are from someone who does not believe in God(s). Jason Henderson wrote: Remember that most religious people are probably just concerned about your wellbeing I should know, my sister is very concerned. I appreciate her, and others, concern. But oft times it becomes overbearing, almost to the point of saying that I am a lost soul who is damned forever. In my heart and mind I am quite content and so take mild offence when others put me in the Lost Soul bin. I do not need anybodies concerns on the matter and have made it clear to those who are. If they continue being concerned then I get a bit annoyed, perfectly normal. :)

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Paul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...

Paul Watson

Chris Austin wrote: Strong convictions are not the sole property of the religious. Amen! errr, I mean right on! :-D Well said.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Paul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...

Christian Graus

Kevnar wrote: If we Christians expect to have the freedom to practice our faith as we chose, we must also extend this freedom to others who don't follow our particular brand of faith. I agree. Other religions are wrong, but then so are most 'christians'. However, freedom to choose is obviously part of God's plan or we would not have so many alternatives. Kevnar wrote: Children are no longer being taught right and wrong in schools however, in fear that they be considered religious teachings. So where will they learn it? At home, of course !!! Anyone who trusted schools ever to teach their kids values is a moron. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002

Christian Graus

Paul Watson wrote: However one feeling I came away with was that you were just encouraging the concept that only religious people have morals to teach and live by. I agree, this is a dangerous mistake to make. There are plenty of moral athiests and plenty of amoral people who claim religion. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002

Jason Gerard

Mike Gaskey wrote: The 10 Commmandments, for example, could be viewed as a set of 10 rules necessary for peace within a society. Have you read the 10 Commandments? Exodus 20:1-17 1 And God spoke all these words, saying: 2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3"You shall have no other gods before Me. 4"You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. 7"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. 8"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. 12"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you. 13"You shall not murder. 14"You shall not commit adultery. 15"You shall not steal. 16"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's." If you are going to endorse them, endorse them all. "You shall have no other gods before Me." Mike Gaskey wrote: Go back to the 10 Commandments and you'll see that following these simple rules will keep you from harming others. Why should we go back to them? If they are from a god that doesn't exist, then they are really just the musings of some man. Hitler felt a successful, peaceful society requried the extermination of all those that are not of Aryan de

Jason Henderson

Paul Watson wrote: But oft times it becomes overbearing, almost to the point of saying that I am a lost soul who is damned forever. I can see how it can become this way. I can't say whether you will be lost forever or not because I don't have that authority and neither does anyone else on this planet.

Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *

Chris Richardson

Kevnar wrote: Special interest groups tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, however, in rejecting universal laws of goodness and morality just because they happen to be religiously based teachings. Pure love, giving, sharing, forgiveness, kindness, humility, self-control, honesty, and faithfulness How are these religion-based? If there were no religion, could there not still be all these things? I don't think that's the case at all. Kevnar wrote: These values, if adhered to, will lead one toward a more peaceful and happy life in the end I don't disagree that these things can contribute to happiness and peacefulness, but who are you to tell all of us what will make our lives happy and peaceful? Kevnar wrote: In the exaltation of freedom of choice, the tendency is to remove any kind of moral absolute. I think you need to separate morality from religious beliefs. Nobody says the teacher can't tell the children it's wrong to steal, or hurt other children, or to do "bad things". The separation here, is that the teacher isn't supposed to teach the children things to do with religion, because it's not their place. Kevnar wrote: Reject religion if you must for the sake of freedom, but please, for the sake of humanity, retain the fundamental moral values of right and wrong that they teach. Now, you say you don't want to shove anything down my throat, but that sentence sure seems to be doing just that. I think I can find my own reasons to teach goodness, without referring to religion. I think that saying the reason you have morals is because you are religious, is a little bit funny. Would it not be possible to be un-religious, and still have good morals, or still be a "good person"?? Or do I, being a mere person, not have enough intelligence to derive my own sense of good morals and apply that to my life? I also think you are assuming that people don't care about these good things anymore, and while it may be true for some, it's not true for all of us, so please let us all make our own decisions. Chris Richardson Programmers find all sorts of ingenious ways to screw ourselves over. - Tim Smith

Michael A Barnhart

Chris Austin wrote: implies that only religious instructions have static morals values. Having many non-religious friends and family members I know this is not the case. Then you can show me a static basis for morality that is not based on religious principles. As I said with Paul, we are likely to not come to an agreement here and I have no hard feelings with that. I just do not believe it is possible. Chris Austin wrote: Strong convictions are not the sole property of the religious. I do not believe I said that they were. Just not a static or absolute base. "I will find a new sig someday."

Mike Gaskey

Jason Gerard wrote: If you are going to endorse them, endorse them all. "You shall have no other gods before Me." Jason - I do but learned the Catholic version. See the 2nd set @ http://www.ainglkiss.com/10com/[^] Mike

Chris Losinger

Jason Henderson wrote: we will not make it to the final destination. nothing will stop me from reaching my hole in the ground. :) -c

Please stand by

ThumbNailer

Chris Richardson

Nor is there a static or absolute base of morals in religion as a whole. There are way too many variants, so [edit]greatest[/edit] common denominator of all of them is probably very close to zero. Chris Richardson Programmers find all sorts of ingenious ways to screw ourselves over. - Tim Smith

Michael A Barnhart

Paul Watson wrote: I see it driving itself forward with a multitude of forks. The forks represent everything from the USA to North Korea to China to Europe to Africa. Each one is a subset of humanity exploring, probing and defining paths. Many of our current forks are quite scary and seemingly dead ends. Hopefully they will merge with the better forks or divert to an entirely new, and better, direction. I believe this can be agreed upon independantly of any religious convictions. Paul Watson wrote: So any logical, well thought out and provable And back to our impass. What I call faith, what ever I consider logical and well thought out will at some point not meet your provable claus. "I will find a new sig someday."

Michael A Barnhart

Chris Richardson wrote: Nor is there a static or absolute base of morals in religion as a whole. It is pretty obvious that we disagree with that statement. "I will find a new sig someday."

Chris Richardson

I'm confused. Did you mean that you and I disagree on that point or somebody else does? Or did you mean that I was just stating the obvious? If the latter, then sorry. Chris Richardson Programmers find all sorts of ingenious ways to screw ourselves over. - Tim Smith

Michael A Barnhart

Sorry, The we is just you and me. I should have said I. "I will find a new sig someday."