Heaven, Hell, and the multiverse

Konstantin Vasserman

Emcee Lam wrote: For all books of antiquity, religous or not, you get a feeling for authenticity by the age and number of copies. There is authenticity of bible as in "is it really a book written a long time ago?". Yes it is. There is authenticity of the message that bible communicates, for example "where there really miracles, God, Jesus Christ and so on?". I am sorry, but this is the first time I hear that the number of copies and age of a book is an evidence of anything other than popularity of the book. It says absolutely nothing about authenticity of the message of the book. Emcee Lam wrote: Caesar's Gallic Wars has 8 or 9 copies written 1000 years after Caesar's death. I don't hear many people complain about the authenticity of Gallic Wars. There are plenty of myth and stories that are describing events that happened way before alleged Christ existence. Do we consider them all to be true? No. We only consider the events that have substantial evidence to support them to be historically true: archeological findings, cross-reference with multiple independent sources and so on. My guess (I am not a historian) is that there are plenty of evidence supporting the story that Gallic Wars really happen. My understanding (again I am not a historian) is that this is no the case with the story that bible conveys.

Emcee Lam

I probably didn't do a good job of explaining this. Please, let me try again. I was describing the approach used to determine if a historical document of today is the same as the original document written by the author from antiquity. By the aforementioned measure, we believe that the history of Thucydides, history of Herodotus, and Aristotle's poetics are substantially the same document written by the original author. Since the New Testament has vastly greater copies and even better dating, it's probably safe to conclude the NT is also substantially unchanged. Now as for the message within the Bible. Can we count that as reliable? Did Jesus really perform these miracles? Was Jesus miraculously resurrected? Is Jesus really God? Treating all questions would take too much time. Let's just examine one of the questions, Jesus resurrection. Christianity is founded on Jesus resurrection. Resurrection establishes the Godhood of Jesus. It also establishes Christian salvation and thus Christian theology. Without resurrection, there would be no Christianity. If one wants to challenge Christianity, this would be the right place. So what happened through the ages? What has been the results of challenging the resurrection of Christ. Results have been underwhelming. From the 1st century Jewish pharisees to our current century scholars, the results of challenges have been underwhelming. I have yet to see anything shake the foundations of Christianity. There were plenty of opportunities in the 1st century, and nothing happened. There are plenty of opportunities in our current century, and not even a stir. This is such a non issue, that I have yet to hear of a Christian who has lost sleep over this question. The lack of a proper counter to claims of Jesus resurrection is not really proof. I was attempting an abbreviated explanation as time does not permit me to write much. Also published books do a much more comprehensive analysis. I would recommend books by Josh McDowell, an anti-Christian turned Christian.

Konstantin Vasserman

Emcee, I was not trying to start a debate on validity of Christian believes. I don't think that either one of us can present any substantial (at least in the eyes of the other) evidence for validity or not validity of any of the key events described in the bible. Thank you for book recommendation. Peace. Kostya.

brianwelsch

Emcee Lam wrote: I would recommend books by Josh McDowell I read More Than a Carpenter. Very interesting. The question of Lord, Liar, or Lunatic, seems to cover it. He has some compelling ideas, which apparently worked to convert himself. I believe his initial intent (on different book i believe) was to actually disprove Christian beliefs, right? Not very successful at that, though. :-D Are into apologetics at all, Emcee? BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White

Emcee Lam

Neither was it my intent to start on a debate. You ask questions. That is good. Only by asking good questions, can one bring confidence to the beliefs that he holds. I only wish that Christians would ask questions of the degree that you have demonstrated.

Emcee Lam

brianwelsch wrote: Are into apologetics at all, Emcee? Yes, to some extent I am interested in apologetics. I like dealing with a lot of hard questions that the average man deals with, yet has trouble answering.

brianwelsch

I've been reading Bulfinch's Mythology a little today and found this reference to Tartarus. thought is was interesting the name was the same. "Jupiter, with his brothers and sisters, now rebelled against their father Saturn and his brothers the Titans; vanquished them, and imprisoned some of them in Tartarus, inflicting other penalties on others" BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White

Jason Gerard

Yes, the concept of Sheol is similar to Hades in Greek Mythology. Tartarus being the place of Torment in Hades in Greek Mythology, the word is used in Scripture to refer to Torment in Sheol since the concept is similar and the New Testament was written in Greek. Jason Gerard qeou kai kurios Iasou Cristou doulos