Death penalty speech

Shog9 0

Before i go any further, i want to make it clear that i'm not commenting on the situation in Illinois, which is most certainly fucked. I rather think George Ryan should have commuted the sentences earlier in his term, rather than appearing to run out on the problem, but that is beside the point. KaЯl wrote: The consequences are not the same. No. They are not. In fact, i'm having a bit of difficulty thinking of many similarities between imprisonment and execution at all. One takes part of a life, the other takes all of it, once it's gone, it's gone, and there is no way to give it back. But execution cannot be stopped half-way, whereas a life sentence can. Execution has at least the appeal of relevance to the crime of murder - "eye for an eye" and all that. Given it's severity and finality, it should *not* be taken lightly - but i firmly believe in some cases it is appropriate, and in the end we must trust the justice system to use it wisely. Imprisonment, however, is the Wonder Drug of punishments - everything from forgetting to pay a speeding ticket to mass murder can get you imprisoned. We've built prisons of every shape and size: women's prisons, juvy prisons, SuperMax prisons, low risk prisons, high risk prisons... I just drove back from Cañon City, CO, a place surrounded by prisons containing everyone from Charles Manson to a local pastor convicted of writing bad checks. Does it help? Does it hurt? Is it cost-effective, or are we bleeding like a stuck pig from all these prisoners? Who cares? Lock 'em up, and ignore them - justice is served... right? A friend of mine was imprisoned for three years on drug charges - by her own account, it saved her life, as it removed her from destructive influences and provided her with counseling to help her deal with the problems causing her addictions. Certainly, this is an admirable result! Is this our goal also with murderers? Rapists? Thieves? Are these crimes even necessarily related to one another? Is there any good reason why we should pretend they should be punished in the same way? As a programmer, this system has a strange appeal to me - a uniform method of punishment, with classifications based on the type and severity of the crime. Why, how easy is that to codify! And if someone complains about the State being "soft on crime", just revise the codes to up sentences by a few years! But then, if people were simple machines we wouldn't be having all these problems in th

Shog9 0

Chris Losinger wrote: in any case - since Illinois system seems to be pretty messed up, having a temporary ban seems like a pretty smart thing to do. and once they get things back in order, they can surely reinstate it, if they choose. Trust you to cut through the crap & get back to the point :)

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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under

Taka Muraoka

Chris Losinger wrote: if only every politician could do one good thing while they're in office... Yes, but you also have to examine why he did this. I don't know anything about the guy but apparently he's been mired in scandal throughout his time on office and some have suggested that this is a ploy to make his name in history and improve his chances in court. That's not really as important as this: there's been a lot of talk on other discussion boards about what a brave and courageous move this was. Bollocks. Let a politician do this kind of thing at the *start* of their term and then you can talk about bravery and courage. Whether or not you agree with having a death penalty, granting a blanket reprieve and totally bypassing the judicial process is pretty appalling. You may think that the judicial process is flawed, and well it might be, but the solution is to try fix it, not this.

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KaRl

About jails, we are following the same way, building 23(:~ ) new prisons. I always thought that anytime a school is built a prison closes. I'm stunt to see how it's easy to go to jail in some US states. Since from here they are totally crazy, quiet fascists. Jails are useful of course, but are just the proof the society/system has failed somewhere. They are only expedient, not the solution to the problem. But I'm sure anybody agrees on this :-D Shog9 wrote: care must be taken also to avoid using the hammer when the axe is what is needed. IMO, evolving is not replacing axe by lethal injections. Cleary the second one. it's an opinion, not an analysis, and I [edit]can[/edit] respect the one of a honorable man. And no, I'm not a dick-sucker (don't one what this one will give translated like this in english)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Shog9 0

KaЯl wrote: IMO, evolving is not replacing axe by lethal injections. I rather hope punishment will evolve, though suspect the reverse is as likely. But i'd rather see the need for it removed.

KaЯl wrote: Cleary the second one. Good pick. :)

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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under

David Wulff

Jeremy Falcon wrote: What if one of the guys on death row raped and killed your wife or daughter? Then what? Then you should not under ANY circumstances be able to have ANY say in their punishment.

David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk

Chris Losinger

Taka Muraoka wrote: but the solution is to try fix it, not this. and until it's fixed, maybe they should stop killing people who might not actually be guilty. -c

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Christian Graus

Jeremy Falcon wrote: Are you even man enough to get really pissed off about it to the point of wanting to kill him? Perhaps he is man enough to understand that revenge only lowers you to the same level as the killer..... Jeremy Falcon wrote: Sure, not everyone who's killed is guilty, but there are a hell of a lot more that are. Nothing's perfect. If you're ever on death row and innocent I wonder if you'll be as cavalier about the death of innocent people. Jeremy Falcon wrote: We should abandon death row as it is now and let the families hurt by these people slowly torture them to death. I don't deny my rage and pain if someone were to, for example, rape and kill my daughter, but I *know* that I would recognise that there is no healing and no personal benefit in vengeance. A person who did such a thing should lose the right to be part of society, but I would not desire their death, because if I did, I would be the same as them. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002

Lost User

Jeremy Falcon wrote: Sure, not everyone who's killed is guilty, but there are a hell of a lot more that are. Nothing's perfect. Absolutely unbelievable. If I didn't know any better I'd assume this was meant to be taken with a large pinch of salt. Unfortunately, you mean it. If a single person is wrongly executed, then the system has failed and the death penalty should be scrapped. Period. This is why we stopped hanging people in the UK. Jeremy Falcon wrote: We should abandon death row as it is now and let the families hurt by these people slowly torture them to death. That would make them as bad as the perps. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Throw these people in prison FOR LIFE, perhaps even make the conditions very harsh, but don't lower yourself to their level by killing them. It isn't going to deter most murders anyway - your typical "crime of passion" isn't premeditated, and is spur of the moment rage. This is why the French differentiate between the two (though someone may need to confirm this..!). I would be more than happy to see people incarcerated for life (which rarely happens in the UK, but don't get me started), instead of them being murdered by the state. At least if people in this situation are found to be innocent, they can be freed and recompensed.

When I am king, you will be first against the wall.

Shog9 0

Why? (btw: is there some issue with your sig these days? i can't seem to load it anymore :( [edit: 'k, it's started working again, nevermind :-O])

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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under

Nick Seng

Shog9 wrote: KaЯl wrote: Cleary the second one. Good pick. My eyes hurt!!;P Notorious SMC

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ColinDavies

If we are going to execute people, why don't we also still have amputations as a punishment ? If a person steals something from a store is it barbaric to amputate the offending appendage ? If it is barbaric then isn't executing people for offenses like murder also barbaric ? Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

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Paul Watson

Jeremy Falcon wrote: Are you even man enough to get really pissed off about it to the point of wanting to kill him? Or would you just let it be. I would be monumentally angry. They would erect statues in my name showing what true anger is to the future generations. You would hear about it from under the north pole! Even if the guy was a 7 foot hulk of a beast I would want to be left with him in his cell so that I could tear his arms off and beat him with the bloody end. If he tore me limb from limb it would not be easy and I would be mildly content. But I would not want him to be put on death row for what he did. Killing him solves nothing. Killing him would mean I would never find out why he did it nor find out what tactic can get through to these maladjusted people and set them straight. Death row solves nothing except saving a few decades worth of prison meals.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

My humble photographic tribute to our world[^]

Rutger Ellen

Shog9 wrote: Well, that depends - what is the purpose of the death penalty? If it is revenge, then there are (IMHO) deeper issues with it than a few innocents getting killed. But i think there are (or could be) better uses for it, as a deterrent or to demonstrate the effectiveness of the judicial system. In these situations, it is perhaps not a failure so much as a regrettable side effect that some executions are carried out on people for the wrong reasons. Similar to a surgeon mistakenly amputating the wrong leg, such occurrences are the inevitable outcome of human fallibility - but not in itself a reason to ban either executions or surgery! You are comparing trying to save a life with taking one. That's INSANE. Trying to save a life or undergoing surgery is done at full awareness of the patient of his next of kin. Now you're the one at the wrong place at the wrong time and before you know it, it's darkness forever. No choice made, no the one making the choice that your life should be sacificed is taken by someone else IMHO death penalty is a mideval way of punishment.. it's not a punishment at all, a punishment is intendid to learn from (ok so you won't do it again but that is more a side effect :( Next thing you know we're taking away hands to prevent robbers from stealing again. Hey you should not hate the Afgans or Irakis they are just a step ahead of you Shog9 wrote: some executions are carried out on people for the wrong reasons. so you think that they deserved to die anyway ???? My opinion you cannot undo evil by doing evil to the one who did it. And killing someone is evil no matter who does it, Uncle Sam or a madcake on the streets. I am pro locking them away forever if needed that's no problem but taking a life nope. (you're right I am from Europe :) ) Rutger

KaRl

Justice has to be impartial, you can't be jury and prosecutor

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Christian Graus

Paul Watson wrote: Death row solves nothing except saving a few decades worth of prison meals. And don't they get that back in numberplates in the USA ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002

Paul Watson

Christian Graus wrote: And don't they get that back in numberplates in the USA ? Sometimes I am not too sharp... you lost me here CG, what numberplates? What do they have to do with death row?

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

My humble photographic tribute to our world[^]

Christian Graus

I thought it was generally accepted that if you went to prison and DIDN'T get killed in the name of 'justice', that you spent your time making numberplates. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002

Paul Watson

Christian Graus wrote: I thought it was generally accepted that if you went to prison and DIDN'T get killed in the name of 'justice', that you spent your time making numberplates. Ahhh, ok I did not know that. In SA prisoners are taught more feminine skills. Like making doileys and plastic chickens. Anything really to get them to make things tourists would want... which is a bit odd considering you would think we would want ex-cons as far away from tourists as possible.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

My humble photographic tribute to our world[^]

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Definitely. State sponsored murder is still murder. :mad: Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

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