Music business decline
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David Wulff wrote: I'd expect to pay thirty pounds for a game not a fourteen track CD. Exactly. And it's been that way for a long time. Tapes are now $10, CD's are still $30, sometimes more. So you can see why in this country there is already resentment of the music industry. David Wulff wrote: Online piracy is so easy to do and so anonymous that almost nobody seems to have *any* problem with it. There was no percieved problem in the 80's, everyone did it. In fact, it was less likely to meet someone who would argue the artists case. David Wulff wrote: It particularly disturbs me how so many software developers on this site openly pirate music yet they would not dream of being lenient on someone they caught pirating *their* software products. Wallet morals again. I don't think it's quite that, it's more empathy. I have mp3's of albums I no longer own, there is no way I would ever run pirated software on any machine in my control. David Wulff wrote: It was my rating form my sig, which I didn't have active when I wrote that message. Ah.. I saw your post about it being smaller, although I see it there now. David Wulff wrote: Treat the thieving bastards that are killing what I can choose to freely listen to with contempt, not myself and others like me. What about people like me, who largely download stuff long out of print ? Or people who genuinely buy stuff if they download it and like it ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: In fact, it was less likely to meet someone who would argue the artists case. I'm not arguing the artists case, I'm arguing the ethical case, where just because you want something but can't afford it that doesn't give you the right to take it. I think your country's prices suck big time, but I don't beleive that gives you any more right to take what you want than I have the right to demand I get a Jag XKR rather than a Rover Metro merely because I think the Jag is overpriced for it's market. No I'm not going to don my rightous cap and say I worked hard to get where I am today, because I didn't. As a (young) kid I used to shoplift all sorts of crap because I wanted to have it but couldn't afford to pay for it. I stopped doing that the day my, now ex, friend stole a model car from me because he couldn't afford to buy one himself. It hit me - crime does not pay, not because you might get caught, but because it is a slippery road to hell which will continually corode your most strongly held ethics until you would kill someone to get their clothes without blinking an eyelid. I won't pretend - I don't buy music to help anyone but myself. I just hate to see good people fall into that trap without realising. Christian Graus wrote: What about people like me, who largely download stuff long out of print ? If it is not available then you are not stealing it are you. Christian Graus wrote: Or people who genuinely buy stuff if they download it and like it ? For the costs (bear with me) it is not worth demoing music like you would software. If you were genuinely going to buy it then again it would not be stealing, and as no "rent an album" system is currently in place thanks to these bleeding pirates. If it was then it would be, just as it is stealing downloading the latest movies and then buying the DVD when it is released. As it is, I choose to buy 2/3/4 CD compilations every couple of months that bridge onto artists and/or genres I am unfamiliar with and then take it from there if I hear anything I like, but again with your prices that is unlikely to be a very viable option for you. :(( By far the vast majority of the music I enjoy on my playlists and what have you has come from this approach.
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David Wulff wrote: I could find all of them (in far greater quanties than I could on in-production CD's) within two minutes using Kazaa if I lowered myself to it So you won't even download music that you *can't* buy? What's the rational behind that? :confused:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Not at all. I can buy all of them, and if I can't find them online I can guarantee I can find them in my local family-run music store. I don't listen to any music so far that I cna't find, even if a little hard, but if I wanted to as I have said to Christian then no not at all. It is not stealing if it's genuinely not available.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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Christian Graus wrote: You're wrong. Not all pirates will stop, but some will. Even if it's just for the sake of having the booklet Just how large is that "some"? I have offered to buy - outright - CDs for my friends in the past and they still choose to steal. They don't place any value in the CD itself, they just want to burn tracks onto CDRs and sell them to their friends for £3 a pop. I saw it all the time when I was at school - and that was three years ago when the whole online music stealing system was in it's infancy as far as they were concerned. Music has no discernable monetary value to a vast amount of people in my generation, except for selling it on. "Some" is not enough. Your (Australian) prices sound above the norm by a long way - that is something you need to sort out regionally and not take out on the global industry. Josh has said that ten dollars is too much for a CD with only a small number of tracks on it he will repeat-listen to - ten dollars to me is the price of a two litre bottle of coke and a pizza. Which gives you more entertainment and value for money - I know what I'd answer. Christian Graus wrote: Perhaps what the movie industry has done with DivX - put money into it and seek for the platform to grow so it is the best option available, and they can use it to stream movies for payment. Getting involved to the point of understanding the problem and seeking an intelligent solution. Most of these people aren't interested in streaming media if it costs any money at all, no matter how little. For the minority who would (and I'd love to do so for convienience) then it would be great, but would it justify the costs involved in doing so? Probably not for music - movies are far more difficult to find in any quality without entering the realms of gigabytes, entire songs can be send via e-mail in a number of milliseconds. Christian Graus wrote: That's about as good as it gets, in terms of trying to get people to have a conscience about it. I suspect most groups sign up with labels to get exposure and the higher profits associated with that.
David Wulff
David Wulff wrote: Which gives you more entertainment and value for money Ok, let's break it down:
- 15-20min eating pizza, drinking coke, chatting with friends over a warm meal, + 4-6hrs of that warm, contented feeling only a stomach full of greasy food can provide: $10 (probably $16 here actually, but i'll be nice) ~$1.50-2.00/hr
- 34hrs listening to 10 good 4min songs once a week for a year (guess - lots at first, occasionally later): $10 (probably more, but i'll be nice) ~$0.29/hr
- 3.4hrs listening to 1 good 4min song once a week for a year (guess - lots at first, occasionally later): $10 (probably more, but i'll be nice) ~$2.90/hr
The difference, of course, is that i need to eat anyway - the pizza just adds a bit to the normal cost of living for that convenience of not cooking (and extra grease). The music is a luxury - and one which can vary wildly as to it's cost/benefit. David Wulff wrote: I know what I'd answer. I, obviously, don't.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Well surely it is high about time be made sure these dickheads realised that theft is theft, no matter how easy it may be or how many of your friends do it? The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights, as a legtimate licensed owner, to use their media by introducing new encryption and copy-crippling tecnologies that wont affect the pirates, only the legitimate owners. Things are fast headed the American way - kill of our liberties to create an illusion of safety and security. In Europe this is *big* - BMG a massive German label is already crippling *every* CD it releases. Does this hamper the pirates? Not at all. They just wait for the uncrippled version to be released in the States and then send it around the globe ninety million times within thirty seconds. We, the good guys, are getting royally fucked up the arse by these pirates, and they aint using lubricant. Rob them blind and send them to prison for all I care - they are the ones breaking the law and choosing to convieniently remould their own so called "highly held" morals around their wallets. Why should I give a damn what happens to them? They obviously don't give a damn what happens to me (and I'm not easily made to feel this way). :mad:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
David Wulff wrote: The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights, as a legtimate licensed owner, to use their media by introducing new encryption and copy-crippling tecnologies that wont affect the pirates, only the legitimate owners. That's exactly why I am saying today's CDs are too expensive, since that's not real CDs anymore. In fact, we customers are paying the protection system.
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Shog9 wrote: Yer gonna hate this idea, but how 'bout avoiding the media companies for a bit if they're screwing you like this? Buying from them is only gonna encourage them further... Because I can't find what I'm looking for elsewhere. I have yet to find groups on MP3.com or it's bretheren that can even lick the Clash's rectal sphincters, pass urine in the same building as Small Faces or Super Cat, or drink Rufus Thomas's excreted month-old sweat. I could find all of them (in far greater quanties than I could on in-production CD's) within two minutes using Kazaa if I lowered myself to it, or I could save up my pennies and buy a new one on CD each week instead of having extra macaroni on that pizza and two cans of coke instead of one, and not bitch because six of the fourteen tracks on the album don't appeal to my tastes. Shog9 wrote: Here's even something to get you started. May not be your thing quite, but give it a listen You're right, definately not my thing if the End Of The Beginning song is anything to go by. :-D
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: it's bretheren that can even lick the Clash's rectal sphincters, I've not understood a word, but beware with your statements about the Clash! :beer: to Joe Strummer[^]
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Well surely it is high about time be made sure these dickheads realised that theft is theft, no matter how easy it may be or how many of your friends do it? The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights, as a legtimate licensed owner, to use their media by introducing new encryption and copy-crippling tecnologies that wont affect the pirates, only the legitimate owners. Things are fast headed the American way - kill of our liberties to create an illusion of safety and security. In Europe this is *big* - BMG a massive German label is already crippling *every* CD it releases. Does this hamper the pirates? Not at all. They just wait for the uncrippled version to be released in the States and then send it around the globe ninety million times within thirty seconds. We, the good guys, are getting royally fucked up the arse by these pirates, and they aint using lubricant. Rob them blind and send them to prison for all I care - they are the ones breaking the law and choosing to convieniently remould their own so called "highly held" morals around their wallets. Why should I give a damn what happens to them? They obviously don't give a damn what happens to me (and I'm not easily made to feel this way). :mad:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
David Wulff wrote: theft is theft Not always. Sometimes it's 'individual recuperation'[^] :) And what about the Robin Hood spirit ? :-D When I was a kid, I recorded the songs from Radio on tapes. Now the technology has evolved, I can burn CDs, with the agreement of the computer industry, which sold me a burner and CD-R (on which I pay a tax which goes to the music industry, even if I use my CDs to store data :wtf:). I would never buy all the CD whose I have a title, I'm not Cresus. However when I begin to download several titles of the same artist, I generally buy one album ,or more (I finally received "KoЯn" from Amazon, now I've got their 5 albums :)) If the majors succeed to kill the file exchange on the Net (good luck), what else will we have to discover music? Radio and TVs, both media controled by the musical industry. How many $ do spend labels for commercials, promotions and marketing? Executives fear all their brainwashing strategies fall in pieces, that's just about it, control.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Christian Graus wrote: In fact, it was less likely to meet someone who would argue the artists case. I'm not arguing the artists case, I'm arguing the ethical case, where just because you want something but can't afford it that doesn't give you the right to take it. I think your country's prices suck big time, but I don't beleive that gives you any more right to take what you want than I have the right to demand I get a Jag XKR rather than a Rover Metro merely because I think the Jag is overpriced for it's market. No I'm not going to don my rightous cap and say I worked hard to get where I am today, because I didn't. As a (young) kid I used to shoplift all sorts of crap because I wanted to have it but couldn't afford to pay for it. I stopped doing that the day my, now ex, friend stole a model car from me because he couldn't afford to buy one himself. It hit me - crime does not pay, not because you might get caught, but because it is a slippery road to hell which will continually corode your most strongly held ethics until you would kill someone to get their clothes without blinking an eyelid. I won't pretend - I don't buy music to help anyone but myself. I just hate to see good people fall into that trap without realising. Christian Graus wrote: What about people like me, who largely download stuff long out of print ? If it is not available then you are not stealing it are you. Christian Graus wrote: Or people who genuinely buy stuff if they download it and like it ? For the costs (bear with me) it is not worth demoing music like you would software. If you were genuinely going to buy it then again it would not be stealing, and as no "rent an album" system is currently in place thanks to these bleeding pirates. If it was then it would be, just as it is stealing downloading the latest movies and then buying the DVD when it is released. As it is, I choose to buy 2/3/4 CD compilations every couple of months that bridge onto artists and/or genres I am unfamiliar with and then take it from there if I hear anything I like, but again with your prices that is unlikely to be a very viable option for you. :(( By far the vast majority of the music I enjoy on my playlists and what have you has come from this approach.
David Wulff wrote: but I don't beleive that gives you any more right I didn't say that, I was commenting on the state of the market, and the fact that the music industry is not helping itself. David Wulff wrote: If it is not available then you are not stealing it are you. Well, the point is that makes it hard to decide who gets punished and who does not. I've met people who claim copyright includes the right to withdraw something from publication, so I am just as bad as if I was downloading Britney Spears. It's all a question of POV. David Wulff wrote: For the costs (bear with me) it is not worth demoing music like you would software I read it all, I don't get what costs you mean ? Anyhow, people definately do it. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
David Wulff wrote: it's bretheren that can even lick the Clash's rectal sphincters, I've not understood a word, but beware with your statements about the Clash! :beer: to Joe Strummer[^]
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
Don't worry, I was saying those guys were all too good for the rest.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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Don't worry, I was saying those guys were all too good for the rest.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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David Wulff wrote: but I don't beleive that gives you any more right I didn't say that, I was commenting on the state of the market, and the fact that the music industry is not helping itself. David Wulff wrote: If it is not available then you are not stealing it are you. Well, the point is that makes it hard to decide who gets punished and who does not. I've met people who claim copyright includes the right to withdraw something from publication, so I am just as bad as if I was downloading Britney Spears. It's all a question of POV. David Wulff wrote: For the costs (bear with me) it is not worth demoing music like you would software I read it all, I don't get what costs you mean ? Anyhow, people definately do it. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: I didn't say that, I was commenting on the state of the market, and the fact that the music industry is not helping itself. Yeah yeah, neither did I. I was explaining what my comment neant. Christian Graus wrote: It's all a question of POV. Isn't everything? Everything somehwere has boils down to a POV... music, hitler... :~ Christian Graus wrote: I read it all, I don't get what costs you mean ? I was referring to the costs needed to demo the music like we do movies (i.e. being able to rent them out to preview them and see if we wanted to buy them) or software (i.e. "listen 30 times and then it expires"). There are some magazines out there that supply cover disks with a selection of music discussed in that issue, which I think is an excellent idea, but I seriously doubt 99.999% of the pirates out there give a damn about music enough to buy them. Afterall, remember music has no discernable value to them; not like it should do as a medium for entertainment anyway.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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The music industry, like the rest of the media is being smothered into mediocrity by the suits :mad: Elaine (non fluffy tigress emoticon) The tigress is here :-D
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Christian Graus wrote: I didn't say that, I was commenting on the state of the market, and the fact that the music industry is not helping itself. Yeah yeah, neither did I. I was explaining what my comment neant. Christian Graus wrote: It's all a question of POV. Isn't everything? Everything somehwere has boils down to a POV... music, hitler... :~ Christian Graus wrote: I read it all, I don't get what costs you mean ? I was referring to the costs needed to demo the music like we do movies (i.e. being able to rent them out to preview them and see if we wanted to buy them) or software (i.e. "listen 30 times and then it expires"). There are some magazines out there that supply cover disks with a selection of music discussed in that issue, which I think is an excellent idea, but I seriously doubt 99.999% of the pirates out there give a damn about music enough to buy them. Afterall, remember music has no discernable value to them; not like it should do as a medium for entertainment anyway.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: I was referring to the costs needed to demo the music You mean the costs needed to create a system where all you CAN do is demo it, as opposed to it being up to the consience of the person who downloaded it ? I think I get you now. My initial point was in response to your 'hang them all' comment, that some people really do download music, and go on to buy it. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002