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  4. Honesty doesn't pay

Honesty doesn't pay

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  • P Paul Riley

    Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
    Racing around to come up behind you again
    The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
    Shorter of breath, one day closer to death     - Pink Floyd, Time

    K Offline
    K Offline
    KaRl
    wrote on last edited by
    #23

    You could say the same thing about taxes. Would they be so high if some didn't try to cheat? I agree with you, honesty doesn't pay, on the contrary, it's might be the best way to get in troubles. However, I hope it doesn't pay only on this World As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid.

    Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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    • P Paul Riley

      Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
      Racing around to come up behind you again
      The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
      Shorter of breath, one day closer to death       - Pink Floyd, Time

      R Offline
      R Offline
      Roger Wright
      wrote on last edited by
      #24

      Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. You may from time to time act otherwise, but that nasty little conscience will pester you and keep you awake at night. Those who aren't bothered by wrongful acts have never grown up, or their values have congealed from some amorphous mass of conflicting standards they absorbed in childhood without conscious thought - pity them, but do not envy them. They're condemned to a wandering, unhappy existence... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
      Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

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      • J Jason Henderson

        Paul Riley wrote: I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. What good is morality if there is no God? On whose authority have these morals been established. If it is on the authority of man, then they are worthless. If you don't believe in God then you are just lying to yourself, therefore you may not be as honest as you think. Just my $.02.

        Jason Henderson
        "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

        articles profile

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        K Offline
        KaRl
        wrote on last edited by
        #25

        Are you honest only because you fear a divine punishment :omg: ? I think it's possible to have moral grounds even for non-believers, it just needs to have some respect for the other human beings. ---- Nice quote, I will try to remember it :)

        Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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        • R Roger Wright

          Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. You may from time to time act otherwise, but that nasty little conscience will pester you and keep you awake at night. Those who aren't bothered by wrongful acts have never grown up, or their values have congealed from some amorphous mass of conflicting standards they absorbed in childhood without conscious thought - pity them, but do not envy them. They're condemned to a wandering, unhappy existence... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
          Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

          K Offline
          K Offline
          KaRl
          wrote on last edited by
          #26

          It's very freudian, indeed. I wondered if I would see the word "Super-ego" somewhere :-D

          Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • P Paul Riley

            Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
            Racing around to come up behind you again
            The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
            Shorter of breath, one day closer to death             - Pink Floyd, Time

            C Offline
            C Offline
            Chris Losinger
            wrote on last edited by
            #27

            Paul Riley wrote: We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy or because of something equally as illegal: collusion and price fixing. http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm[^] but, yeah. it's a losing game, being the honest one. i highly recommend The Origins of Virtue, (Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation), by Matt Ridley. It's a nice introduction to game theory, which is exactly what you're describing: honesty often does not pay in the short run, because it's often so easy to cheat and get away with it. -c

            Get there first with something patented, proprietary, and broken, then send lawyers after anyone who points out problems. --- Peter Gutmann

            Fractals

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            • K KaRl

              You could say the same thing about taxes. Would they be so high if some didn't try to cheat? I agree with you, honesty doesn't pay, on the contrary, it's might be the best way to get in troubles. However, I hope it doesn't pay only on this World As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid.

              Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

              P Offline
              P Offline
              Paul Riley
              wrote on last edited by
              #28

              KaЯl wrote: As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid. See, I would say that I only give a fark (love that word) when I start actually feeling stupid, like when being the good guy (or at least trying)doesn't buy me one of those lovely new Land Rovers. :-D But I'm feeling a lot better about it now, thanks to everyone in this conversation [even Jason! :laugh:]. It's not often I look online for advise or reassurance from people that barely know me really but I did feel shitty this morning. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
              Racing around to come up behind you again
              The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
              Shorter of breath, one day closer to death               - Pink Floyd, Time

              K 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • R Roger Wright

                Paul Riley wrote: But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. You may from time to time act otherwise, but that nasty little conscience will pester you and keep you awake at night. Those who aren't bothered by wrongful acts have never grown up, or their values have congealed from some amorphous mass of conflicting standards they absorbed in childhood without conscious thought - pity them, but do not envy them. They're condemned to a wandering, unhappy existence... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
                Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

                P Offline
                P Offline
                Paul Riley
                wrote on last edited by
                #29

                Roger Wright wrote: I doubt that you can. Once you mature enough as an adult human being, you have adopted a set of personal ethics - an ingrained knowledge of right and wrong - that will dictate your actions until you consciously reevaluate them and deliberately change them. Bingo! Right on the mark, Roger. Nothing I can do will convince me that thinking only of myself is a good thing. Therefore I'd (a) not be able to live with myself and (b) probably get caught doing something wrong. Guess I'd better deal with that, huh? :-D Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                Racing around to come up behind you again
                The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                 - Pink Floyd, Time

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • P Paul Riley

                  KaЯl wrote: As you know, what really matters for me on this point is my own conscience. I don't give a fark when people call me stupid. See, I would say that I only give a fark (love that word) when I start actually feeling stupid, like when being the good guy (or at least trying)doesn't buy me one of those lovely new Land Rovers. :-D But I'm feeling a lot better about it now, thanks to everyone in this conversation [even Jason! :laugh:]. It's not often I look online for advise or reassurance from people that barely know me really but I did feel shitty this morning. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                  Racing around to come up behind you again
                  The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                  Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                   - Pink Floyd, Time

                  K Offline
                  K Offline
                  KaRl
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #30

                  Paul Riley wrote: I only give a fark (love that word) Me too :-D We should build a statue dedicated to his inventor ..[searching]...Euh...finally, no :) A variation: should we be honnest with dishonest people?

                  Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                  • C Chris Losinger

                    Paul Riley wrote: We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy or because of something equally as illegal: collusion and price fixing. http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm[^] but, yeah. it's a losing game, being the honest one. i highly recommend The Origins of Virtue, (Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation), by Matt Ridley. It's a nice introduction to game theory, which is exactly what you're describing: honesty often does not pay in the short run, because it's often so easy to cheat and get away with it. -c

                    Get there first with something patented, proprietary, and broken, then send lawyers after anyone who points out problems. --- Peter Gutmann

                    Fractals

                    P Offline
                    P Offline
                    Paul Riley
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #31

                    Chris Losinger wrote: i highly recommend The Origins of Virtue, Looks interesting. I'll add that to my next Amazon order. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                    Racing around to come up behind you again
                    The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                    Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                     - Pink Floyd, Time

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                    • K KaRl

                      Paul Riley wrote: I only give a fark (love that word) Me too :-D We should build a statue dedicated to his inventor ..[searching]...Euh...finally, no :) A variation: should we be honnest with dishonest people?

                      Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

                      P Offline
                      P Offline
                      Paul Riley
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #32

                      KaЯl wrote: A variation: should we be honnest with dishonest people? Ahh yes, a good question; being a heavy Diplomacy[^] player, this is a discussion I've had many times. In game, I tend to be completely dishonest with completely dishonest players, even when they're dishonest to my benefit. Why? Because they tend to assume you're lying anyway and only get farked off when you tell the truth. In real life, I tend to think yes, until their dishonesty affects me directly and personally. I can be a bitter bastard if you cross me, especially at work, but you have to cross me pretty badly. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                      Racing around to come up behind you again
                      The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                      Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                       - Pink Floyd, Time

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • P Paul Riley

                        Chris Losinger wrote: i highly recommend The Origins of Virtue, Looks interesting. I'll add that to my next Amazon order. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                        Racing around to come up behind you again
                        The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                        Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                         - Pink Floyd, Time

                        K Offline
                        K Offline
                        KaRl
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #33

                        Paul Riley wrote: I'll add that to my next Amazon order It must be cool to be rich :rolleyes::laugh:;)

                        Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                        • K KaRl

                          Paul Riley wrote: I'll add that to my next Amazon order It must be cool to be rich :rolleyes::laugh:;)

                          Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                          Paul Riley
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #34

                          KaЯl wrote: It must be cool to be rich Hahaaa! About £7 for the UK paperback edition. And I'll tell you now that the day I can't feed my book addiction is the day I turn to the dark-side. Books are essential to me like food is to any person. I could live without TV, I could manage without my PC if it didn't pay the bills, I'd struggle without music but I'd cope, books just aren't optional. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                          Racing around to come up behind you again
                          The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                          Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                           - Pink Floyd, Time

                          K 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • P Paul Riley

                            KaЯl wrote: It must be cool to be rich Hahaaa! About £7 for the UK paperback edition. And I'll tell you now that the day I can't feed my book addiction is the day I turn to the dark-side. Books are essential to me like food is to any person. I could live without TV, I could manage without my PC if it didn't pay the bills, I'd struggle without music but I'd cope, books just aren't optional. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                            Racing around to come up behind you again
                            The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                            Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                             - Pink Floyd, Time

                            K Offline
                            K Offline
                            KaRl
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #35

                            Paul Riley wrote: About £7 for the UK paperback edition. <cynical>:omg:, 10 days of salary for a worker in burkina-faso!</cynical> Paul Riley wrote: I could live without TV, I could manage without my PC if it didn't pay the bills, I'd struggle without music but I'd cope, books just aren't optional. Same here, I couldn't live without reading :)

                            Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                            • K KaRl

                              Paul Riley wrote: About £7 for the UK paperback edition. <cynical>:omg:, 10 days of salary for a worker in burkina-faso!</cynical> Paul Riley wrote: I could live without TV, I could manage without my PC if it didn't pay the bills, I'd struggle without music but I'd cope, books just aren't optional. Same here, I couldn't live without reading :)

                              Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                              P Offline
                              Paul Riley
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #36

                              KaЯl wrote: 10 days of salary for a worker in burkina-faso Heheh! Yeah, which is why I don't work in a burkina-faso. (Is that like Taco Bell? ;P) Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                              Racing around to come up behind you again
                              The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                              Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                               - Pink Floyd, Time

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • K KaRl

                                Are you honest only because you fear a divine punishment :omg: ? I think it's possible to have moral grounds even for non-believers, it just needs to have some respect for the other human beings. ---- Nice quote, I will try to remember it :)

                                Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

                                J Offline
                                J Offline
                                Jason Henderson
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #37

                                KaЯl wrote: Are you honest only because you fear a divine punishment ? No, I'm honest because its right to be so. But without the fear of God, there is no authority behind morality, IMO. KaЯl wrote: I think it's possible to have moral grounds even for non-believers, it just needs to have some respect for the other human beings. Yes it is, but where do those morals come from in the first place? I believe from God, but you may believe otherwise. KaЯl wrote: Nice quote, I will try to remember it Our greatest contribution to society, is the example we set for others.

                                Jason Henderson
                                "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                articles profile

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                                • P Paul Riley

                                  Jason Henderson wrote: Yes, I'm perfectly serious. You may not believe in God but I do. I understand that and respect your right to believe. However, what you seemed to be implying that every time you do something "right", you're doing it out of fear, rather than because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. That's a weird way of looking at it to me. In my thinking, I don't honestly care whether there is a god or not because I do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing. If it turns out I was wrong all along then I WILL laugh and apologise and hope that HE doesn't look too darkly on me for my lack of faith but rather look well on me for my humble good deeds, but that sure as hell isn't why I try to do the right thing. Jason Henderson wrote: Some churches are under the authority of man. But, according to Christian belief, the Bible is God's word (his authority) on which our morals are established. Yes, it was authored by men, but not by normal men. Men with the spirit of God dwelling within them. Assuming you believe that. Of course, with translations and interpretations, it becomes about what the church believes and not what the bible actually says. I have nothing against that particularly, just saying that the church is still about the morality of man, just a different group of men. Jason Henderson wrote: Let's assume there is a God for the moment and he is the embodiment of truth, and love. If you don't believe in that God of truth in whom all authority/morality is established, then you are lying to yourself. But if there isn't a god then you are lying to yourself. But I would never suggest that as I cannot prove or disprove the reality of god, nor can you. Faith is a personal thing, I will not dismiss your faith if you don't dismiss my lack of it. Jason Henderson wrote: If you don't want me to participate in the discussion then don't ask for my opinion. I didn't mean to give that impression, your comments are as welcome as anyone else's. But my lack of faith means that a lecture on doing the right thing just because God wants me to is useless to me. I was just expressing my discomfort with your announcing my immorality purely based on my lack of faith. Or... I find your feelings on my lack of faith disturbing :-D. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                  Racing around to come up behind you again

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                                  J Offline
                                  Jason Henderson
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #38

                                  Paul Riley wrote: what you seemed to be implying that every time you do something "right", you're doing it out of fear, rather than because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. The fear of God is the authority behind our morals, but I am honest because I want to do what's right before God. God loves me, and the best way for me to show my love for him is to obey his commands. Paul Riley wrote: If it turns out I was wrong all along then I WILL laugh and apologise and hope that HE doesn't look too darkly on me for my lack of faith but rather look well on me for my humble good deeds I don't want to get into a discussion on God, because I don't want to come across as judgemental. However, if you want to know more, knock and the door will open. Paul Riley wrote: Faith is a personal thing, I will not dismiss your faith if you don't dismiss my lack of it. Its your choice. Paul Riley wrote: was just expressing my discomfort with your announcing my immorality I wasn't trying to say you were immoral, just that your morality has no validity without God (except in your own heart).

                                  Jason Henderson
                                  "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                  articles profile

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                                  • J Jason Henderson

                                    Paul Riley wrote: what you seemed to be implying that every time you do something "right", you're doing it out of fear, rather than because it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling. The fear of God is the authority behind our morals, but I am honest because I want to do what's right before God. God loves me, and the best way for me to show my love for him is to obey his commands. Paul Riley wrote: If it turns out I was wrong all along then I WILL laugh and apologise and hope that HE doesn't look too darkly on me for my lack of faith but rather look well on me for my humble good deeds I don't want to get into a discussion on God, because I don't want to come across as judgemental. However, if you want to know more, knock and the door will open. Paul Riley wrote: Faith is a personal thing, I will not dismiss your faith if you don't dismiss my lack of it. Its your choice. Paul Riley wrote: was just expressing my discomfort with your announcing my immorality I wasn't trying to say you were immoral, just that your morality has no validity without God (except in your own heart).

                                    Jason Henderson
                                    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                    articles profile

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                                    Paul Riley
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #39

                                    Jason Henderson wrote: The fear of God is the authority behind our morals, but I am honest because I want to do what's right before God. I would argue that I am honest because I want to do what's right before me. The fear of God may be the authority behind your morals but not mine. There is nothing dishonest there. Jason Henderson wrote: I don't want to get into a discussion on God, because I don't want to come across as judgemental. I've had plenty of discussions about God with devoutly religious people who haven't come across as judgemental. Why would you? Jason Henderson wrote: However, if you want to know more, knock and the door will open. Ahh, sadly, I've knocked and that door before and nobody answered. I don't feel a need to go there again. Jason Henderson wrote: I wasn't trying to say you were immoral, just that your morality has no validity without God (except in your own heart). And that little clause was my point all along. My morality is all about the validity in my own heart. That's all I'm interested in. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                    Racing around to come up behind you again
                                    The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                                    Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                                     - Pink Floyd, Time

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                                    • P Paul Riley

                                      Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                      Racing around to come up behind you again
                                      The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                                      Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                                       - Pink Floyd, Time

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                                      Brad Jennings
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #40

                                      Yeah, I feel the same way, feels like we're getting screwed by dishonest people everyday. It makes me feel better to know that dishonest people see us doing honest things everyday and hopefully they will learn from our examples. Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies

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                                      • P Paul Riley

                                        Here I am, a generally honest person, I buy what music and software I want, I pay my bills (not always on time, but I pay them), I don't rip people off, I earn an honest (and considerably above average) wage and spend it as I please. And yet my car is falling apart and to get a new one I have to look at some serious refinancing. I'm not short of money, but I can't afford to just throw away an extra couple of hundred notes a month without giving something else up. And then I look around at people who are scrounging off the state and can afford to run two decent cars and a bigger house than I have, go out drinking 7 nights a week, etc, etc. And I have to figure that they're ripping someone off; I also have to figure that directly or indirectly that person is me. Most people nowadays seem to steal whatever is easy to steal (like music and software), I know of several people who just run up massive debts and declare bankrupcy every couple of years, others make a living out of insurance claims and yet more claim state benefits that they're not entitled to. And who pays for this? The companies they're ripping off? No. It's the honest consumer. We pay more for CDs and software because of piracy, we pay more for insurance to cover the payments, we certainly pay our taxes to cover benefit fraud, and we surely pay more charges at the bank to pay off other people's bad debts. :mad: So I can't help but wonder, why do I bother? I can't go to a car dealer and say "I have plenty of moral high ground, what kind of car can I have?". I sure don't sleep any better at night. I don't believe in God, so there's no big payoff coming in the afterlife. So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? Sure the world would be a better place if everyone led a moral life, but they don't and there's very little incentive for people to do so. I doubt I'm going to suddenly change, take copies of all my CDs and sell the originals, buy a scam satellite TV decoder card, start copying software, go looking around for ways to injure myself for money, claim the dole, etc. But I sure would appreciate it if someone would explain to me why I shouldn't? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
                                        Racing around to come up behind you again
                                        The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
                                        Shorter of breath, one day closer to death                                         - Pink Floyd, Time

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                                        brianwelsch
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #41

                                        Paul Riley wrote: So why don't I go around and "play the game" much like everyone else does? I've thought about it too. Theft, adultery, lying (beyond "yes, I like that dress." ;) ), etc... At the end of day the day, though, I can't do it. Well, at least not anymore :-O . It's a matter of making my life happier. I try to do unto others as I would have them do to me, not as they actually do to me. It helps me sleep at night knowing I'm trying my best to not add to the confusion and chaos in this world. It's frustrating though to see others cave to their desires so quickly, especially when they are in situations which allow them to easily do the "right thing". BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White

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