What if ...

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

I agree with Paul. I don't see any way of sorting out the mess by "diplomatic" means unless Iraq fully co-operates (do you seriously believe that will happen?), and certainly nothing from any of the nations opposing military action that would be effective. At best, all I can see happening if they get their way is a delay before the whole thing blows up again. The Iraqi government as been given free reign to stick two fingers up at the UN for far too long. One thing I would say though is that the US & UK governments have handled this abysmally from a PR perspective, and their obvious willingness to bypass the UN at the outset probably hasn't helped. I can quite understand France and Germany being shitty as a result! Of course, if world governments hadn't got cold feet in 1991 it may all have been resolved now. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Maximilien

The peacefull alternative to war is putting more and more pressure on Irak, make the country a pressure cooker! Paul Riley wrote: So what should we do instead? Let the weapons inspectors do their work? Nobody's stopping them... except Iraq. They say that with a major expansion of the inspection program, by doubling, trippling, or more, the number of inspectors, and having low altitude plane recon. to help the inspections. I was surprised that there were so few inspectors, I would have brought in at least a couple hundred people, with helicopters, recon. planes, drones and other gizmos. Since I wasn't completly impressed by Powell's presentation, I have to wait until the 14th for, I think, the most interresting report by Blix and ElBaradei. Max.

Maximilien

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: Of course, if world governments hadn't got cold feet in 1991 it may all have been resolved now. As much as I hate to admit, you are right, they should have finished the job back then. Max.

Felix Gartsman

Maximilien wrote: The peacefull alternative to war is putting more and more pressure on Irak, make the country a pressure cooker! How you pressure a mad blood thirsty dictator? Only force ticks him. You think of Saddam in terms of reason, that's wrong.

Paul Riley

Maximilien wrote: The peacefull alternative to war is putting more and more pressure on Irak, make the country a pressure cooker! I didn't express that very well... what I mean is how do you apply more pressure by continually avoiding war at all costs? Nobody (well, very few people) wants a war, but how many options are left? Maximilien wrote: They say that with a major expansion of the inspection program, by doubling, trippling, or more, the number of inspectors, and having low altitude plane recon. to help the inspections. I was surprised that there were so few inspectors, I would have brought in at least a couple hundred people, with helicopters, recon. planes, drones and other gizmos. I was surprised at first, but then I realised that with Iraqi cooperation, this was easily enough. Without it, 10,000 inspectors couldn't cover the whole country. There were plenty of inspectors there back in '98, including a special force for figuring out how Iraq was hiding the weapons. As soon as they got close, Saddam accused them of being spies and kicked them out. Nobody wanted that to happen again. Maximilien wrote: Since I wasn't completly impressed by Powell's presentation, I have to wait until the 14th for, I think, the most interresting report by Blix and ElBaradei. I have been pro-war with reservations (not happy with the way things are being done but always more convinced that the US hold the moral high-ground when compared to Iraq) for a while now and Powell certainly failed to push me to completely pro-war. Pathetic anticlimax. I too am waiting for the 14th with interest but Blix has said today that Iraq needs to do a lot more to help; I doubt he's going to be convinced any time soon. But then as I said in the lounge, I do expect some fanatical Iraqi general (who was probably a citizen two days earlier) to be found hiding all the missing weapons that Saddam knows he can't get away with and said citizen-general will be quickly blamed and executed. Will that happen right before the 14th? We'll see. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Brad Jennings

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: their obvious willingness to bypass the UN at the outset probably hasn't helped. I think the US and UK are getting impatient with the UN because of the beaurocracy. The US and UK want action now and if they wait for the UN it could take years. I'm not saying it's right for the US and UK to bypass the UN, I'm just offering a viable explanation. I think we should take care of the problem as peacefully as possible but it looks like war is coming no matter what we decide is the best plan of action. Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Paul Riley wrote: Will that happen right before the 14th? We'll see. I'm curious, why did they pick 14th of february? I don't see any connection between Valentines and war. -- "It is amazing how f-ing crazy I really am."

Paul Riley

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I don't see any connection between Valentines and war. We've already had one Valentine's Day massacre, why not another? Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Christian Graus

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: One thing I would say though is that the US & UK governments have handled this abysmally from a PR perspective, and their obvious willingness to bypass the UN at the outset probably hasn't helped. Yes, the PR angle has been an utter joke, and it's been obvious that the US government doesn't give a *damn* what the rest of the world thinks of it. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Sadly it does. I do think the US's obvious willingness to bypass the UN at the outset has probably alienated other nations though. From here, it was appalling. Had they tried harder at the outset rather than being so gung-ho, things might have been different. Too late now, though. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Ain't that the truth. :~ Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Brad Jennings

Anna-Jayne Metcalfe wrote: I do think the US's obvious willingness to bypass the UN at the outset has probably alienated other nations though. I totally agree, that's the main reason I think my country (US) should have been a little more patient. Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Paul Riley wrote: We've already had one Valentine's Day massacre, why not another? Forgive my ignorance, but I have no clue what you're referring to. :confused: -- "It is amazing how f-ing crazy I really am."

Paul Riley

Sorry. Start here: St. Valentine's Day Massacre[^] Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Jorgen Sigvardsson

If you're making an analogy, then Bush is a gangster dressing up like a cop. And Saddam will walk away unharmed. Was that analogy intended, or just the fact that it was a massacre just like a war against Iraq would be? -- "It is amazing how f-ing crazy I really am."

Paul Riley

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: or just the fact that it was a massacre just like a war against Iraq would be? Yep. No clever analogies today, I'm afraid. You asked the connection between war and St. Valentine's Day, my answer was "massacre". Wasn't that clever in the first place and then it lost it's impact because you had no idea what I was talking about :laugh:. Ho hum. Paul And you run and you run to catch up with the sun, but it's sinking
Racing around to come up behind you again
The sun is the same in a relative way, but you're older
Shorter of breath, one day closer to death - Pink Floyd, Time

Michael A Barnhart

Maximilien wrote: What if France and Germany decide to say to the US and British (cut sentence) From my perspective I find the fact the France and Germany having the greatest financial ties with Saddam makes there support for going slow as questionable as those who claim the US is only in this for the money. The same can be said for both. As for the comment on more aircraft surveillance on one of the threads that has not happened due to the statement the safety of the aircraft will not promised, does indicate the lack of cooperation. So I say let Blix do the report. Of all of the evidence that justifies action I have seen to date the interim report of his is #1. IMO "I will find a new sig someday."

Maximilien

Michael A. Barnhart wrote: As for the comment on more aircraft surveillance on one of the threads that has not happened due to the statement the safety of the aircraft will not promised, does indicate the lack of cooperation. And that could be the biggest gamble that France could take; make the recon. deal with Irak. Imagine, sending a couple of planes over Irak as recon. ( I can't even spell the whole word, some help me! ), and it doesn't get shot down and take pictures of stuff that is suppose to be there or not supposed to be there and help with the inspection. But on the other hand, if it get shot down, France wold be pissed off, and I wouldn't pay much for Irak!. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: So I say let Blix do the report. Of all of the evidence that justifies action I have seen to date the interim report of his is #1. IMO I agree! I await with great expectations his next report. Max.

Michael A Barnhart

Maximilien wrote: And that could be the biggest gamble that France could take; make the recon. deal with Irak. And also a very great show of support for the path they want to take. I imagine it would give a lot of credit to taking more time if done. "I will find a new sig someday."