I'm Curious.

Roger Wright

Germany and France appear to be united in their opposition to an immediate resolution of the Iraq situation by forceful means. Why? I can't recall these two countries ever agreeing on any point at any time in history. Why now? Do they have common economuc interests in Iraq? Are they trading partners with Saddam's regime? What could motivate them to such unity? Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Jorgen Sigvardsson

It could be as simple as feeling that they are a part of a larger community now. This is the first(?) time France and Germany have ever been so tight together peacefully, much thanks to EU. Before EU both countries produced warmongers and conquerors who planned on taking over Europe and then the rest of the world. Maybe it's just a sign of them believing that they are part of the same community. *shrug* -- "It is amazing how f-ing crazy I really am."

Mike Gaskey

If you're interested in a set of opinions, here's mine: Both nations have sold materials to Iraq that are in violation of international agreements that: 1) were designed to stop the proliferation of nukes or chemical weapons and if anyone goes into Iraq evidence will come to light that shows exactly that, 2) were put in place at the end of the '91 Gulf War that were designed by the UN to contain Iraq. Both nations have oil related agreements with Iraq and have been buying oil illegally. Both nations realize that they are no longer world players having faded into irrelavance, with the only option being to oppose the US and it's honest allies. France has such a high percentage of Muslim population that it is political death for them to do otherwise. Possibly the same situation in Germany. If you believe their obstinence has any altrustic basis, I have a bridge to sell you. Mike

Christian Graus

I think they are smart. GWB has said he's going to do what he wants with or without the UN. If he crushes Saddam to powder, well, no-one will know if he was a threat, and the inevitable collateral damage will provide much fodder for those who opposed to claim it was not necessary. If the net result is great loss of life on both sides, they can say 'we were always against it'. :0) Personally, I think they are at least slightly motivated through the offense of being asked their opinion when they've already been told it will be ignored. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
It'd probably be fairly easy to make a bot that'd post random stupid VB questions, and nobody would probably ever notice - benjymous - 21-Jan-2003

Roger Wright

A possibility, I suppose, but wouldn't it be more reasonable to expect them to side with the rest of the EU? It's an interesting switch, whatever the cause. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Roger Wright

Mike Gaskey wrote: If you believe their obstinence has any altrustic basis, I have a bridge to sell you. That will be the day... France persists in acting like an enemy of the US, despite the incredible amount of assistance we've provided to them. I don't know why we bother, and altruism is not a trait I'd think to associate with either country. Pragmatism, perhaps, from their perspective, but not altruism. All of the items you mention I've heard, but haven't paid close attention to as neither country is significant on a day to day basis. Not that they're unimportant, just that they don't appear in headlines every day and so tend to fall below the radar, so to speak. Are these documented offenses? If so, why hasn't the EU taken steps to check their own? Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Roger Wright

Christian Graus wrote: GWB has said he's going to do what he wants with or without the UN. I'm not one of those who considers GWB to be stupid - in fact, I support him in most matters, and consider him to be orders of magnitude beter than either his predecessor or his opponent. But that was a singularly stupid thing for him to say. Whether it was said for effect, or a slip caused by his emotional involvement in the issue, it was an amazing diplomatic blunder. Dan Quayle couldn't have said it better. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Lost User

Just thought you might like to know. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002

Roger Wright

Thanks for sharing with the group, Michael!:-D Is it just me, or is it politics that excites you so?;P Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Chris Losinger

(and a little drunk) just thought i'd play along

WWT2D?

Fractals

HENDRIK R

Roger Wright wrote: I can't recall these two countries ever agreeing on any point at any time in history. I think during the last 50 years the stituation has changed. France and Germany don't agree on every point, but they're converging. France - German-friendship is a word more often spoken then ever. But in my opinion that doesn't account for an equal opinion regarding the question of war. It's a lucky coincidence. Since our Bundeskanzler Schröder propagated 'no war' during his election campaign to gain votes, he'd no other opportunity any more. I don't really know France's reasons for voting against war, but I fear it'll cange anyway. Perhaps they really see the chance to show the measure of our friendship - but I don't think so. Or they want to show international strength. Perhaps it's inner politics - I think the France population is strictly against war and Chirac would do bad when handling pro-Iraqi. Roger Wright wrote: Do they have common economuc interests in Iraq? Are they trading partners with Saddam's regime? What could motivate them to such unity? Economic interests??? For sure both France and Germany traded with the Iraq. But don't forget that the highest amount of deals seem to have been done between Iraq and the US. And the US wants to attack the Iraq. So in fact that doesn't make sense.

HENDRIK R

Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations have sold materials to Iraq that are in violation of international agreements that: 1) were designed to stop the proliferation of nukes or chemical weapons and if anyone goes into Iraq evidence will come to light that shows exactly that, 2) were put in place at the end of the '91 Gulf War that were designed by the UN to contain Iraq. And so the US did - surely it's not the official point of view, but I think it's for sure. Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations have oil related agreements with Iraq and have been buying oil illegally. Beside the fact that I don't believe that (how could we buy Iraqi oil illegally??) just to inform you: most of the oil Germany imports comes from Russia - totally legal. Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations realize that they are no longer world players having faded into irrelavance, with the only option being to oppose the US and it's honest allies. I think both are neither more nor less important than 1 or 2 years ago. They're part of the strongest economies worldwide, they're members of the World Security Council - what more should we need? Mike Gaskey wrote: France has such a high percentage of Muslim population that it is political death for them to do otherwise. Possibly the same situation in Germany. I think it's not only France's Muslims not supporting a war - it's the whole population. And so is it in Germany, too, even if the the Muslim part isn't very high. Mike Gaskey wrote: If you believe their obstinence has any altrustic basis, I have a bridge to sell you. For sure not it's not altruistic, but not the way you think of. I think they want to keep their face in the population (that's really important) and show the world that not everyone has to follow the US without questioning.

Dr Herbie

It could be because when Saddam had chemical weapons in the past (which he used on his own people), he bought them from France and Germany. They might find this a little embarrassing if the same chemical weapons are used against USA and/or UN troops. :~ This is no-one's opinion but my own. Dr Herbie.

Lost User

Roger Wright wrote: Thanks for sharing with the group, Michael! :-D No problems, anytime Roger. Roger Wright wrote: Is it just me, or is it politics that excites you so? ;P You Roger, definitely you. I mean 48, unemployed, Arizona, NCPA (Non Certified Practicing Accountant). What more could a man ask for? ;) Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002

Maximilien

Schlaubi wrote: For sure not it's not altruistic, but not the way you think of. I think they want to keep their face in the population (that's really important) and show the world that not everyone has to follow the US without questioning. You just won a 5 point from me. This is the whole point of the Franco-Germany situation. To have allies, France and Germany are still allied with the USA and UK, that question and force the US/UK to think and question themselves. Max.

KaRl

Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations have sold materials to Iraq that are in violation of international agreements that: 1) were designed to stop the proliferation of nukes or chemical weapons You mean, as the US did ? Mike Gaskey wrote: and it's honest allies :laugh::laugh: not honest, but carpet. You mix allies and vassals.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Roger Wright

Good points! Thanks for the info. I hadn't considered that angle - in both cases, the leaders would be pissing off the population if they backed the war, always very risky for a politician... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Roger Wright

Yup, that would be a tad unpleasant for them. On the other hand, I think we originally supplied Saddam with chemical weapons for use in the was against Iran, so that could become quite uncomfortable, too. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

KaRl

Roger Wright wrote: Why? I can't recall these two countries ever agreeing on any point at any time in history That was true till the end of WWII, but nowadays and on the contrary, I can't remember a situation on which we strongly and openly disagreed. Few years after WWII were our leaders cleaver enough to understand that without a friendship between our two countries a war could start again. The first step was the creation of the European Community for Coal and Steel in 1951, where both countries agreed to share their natural resource (with also Belgium, Luxembourg, Holland and Italy). The same 6 countries created the European Economic Community in 1957, integrating them in a big set a little more . 40 years ago, our leaders Adenauer and De Gaulle signed in 1963 a cooperation treaty (we celebrated its anniversary few days ago), creating more and more closer links between us (for example, our governments meet each other twice a year). In these days there are even projects of creation of a federation between our two countries. Roger Wright wrote: What could motivate them to such unity? An explanation could be both countries tried to create a common European front, to bolster a weak political Europe. The common declaration of UK, Spain, Italy and so on has ruined this, and moreover destroyed Europe as a political power (Good luck to the leaders of these countries, they will have fun to convince their people. In a few days you will probably hear about some rumbles in Spain, because of Aznar's uunconditionnal support to GWB). Both our people also share the same view on "GW2, the return". So it's easier for the governments to follow the "no war" path.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Roger Wright

Quite right, Michael. I can see how that would be an irresistable combination! I just hadn't looked at it from an Aussie perspective.;) Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003