I'm Curious.

Lost User

Just thought you might like to know. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002

Roger Wright

Thanks for sharing with the group, Michael!:-D Is it just me, or is it politics that excites you so?;P Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Chris Losinger

(and a little drunk) just thought i'd play along

WWT2D?

Fractals

HENDRIK R

Roger Wright wrote: I can't recall these two countries ever agreeing on any point at any time in history. I think during the last 50 years the stituation has changed. France and Germany don't agree on every point, but they're converging. France - German-friendship is a word more often spoken then ever. But in my opinion that doesn't account for an equal opinion regarding the question of war. It's a lucky coincidence. Since our Bundeskanzler Schröder propagated 'no war' during his election campaign to gain votes, he'd no other opportunity any more. I don't really know France's reasons for voting against war, but I fear it'll cange anyway. Perhaps they really see the chance to show the measure of our friendship - but I don't think so. Or they want to show international strength. Perhaps it's inner politics - I think the France population is strictly against war and Chirac would do bad when handling pro-Iraqi. Roger Wright wrote: Do they have common economuc interests in Iraq? Are they trading partners with Saddam's regime? What could motivate them to such unity? Economic interests??? For sure both France and Germany traded with the Iraq. But don't forget that the highest amount of deals seem to have been done between Iraq and the US. And the US wants to attack the Iraq. So in fact that doesn't make sense.

HENDRIK R

Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations have sold materials to Iraq that are in violation of international agreements that: 1) were designed to stop the proliferation of nukes or chemical weapons and if anyone goes into Iraq evidence will come to light that shows exactly that, 2) were put in place at the end of the '91 Gulf War that were designed by the UN to contain Iraq. And so the US did - surely it's not the official point of view, but I think it's for sure. Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations have oil related agreements with Iraq and have been buying oil illegally. Beside the fact that I don't believe that (how could we buy Iraqi oil illegally??) just to inform you: most of the oil Germany imports comes from Russia - totally legal. Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations realize that they are no longer world players having faded into irrelavance, with the only option being to oppose the US and it's honest allies. I think both are neither more nor less important than 1 or 2 years ago. They're part of the strongest economies worldwide, they're members of the World Security Council - what more should we need? Mike Gaskey wrote: France has such a high percentage of Muslim population that it is political death for them to do otherwise. Possibly the same situation in Germany. I think it's not only France's Muslims not supporting a war - it's the whole population. And so is it in Germany, too, even if the the Muslim part isn't very high. Mike Gaskey wrote: If you believe their obstinence has any altrustic basis, I have a bridge to sell you. For sure not it's not altruistic, but not the way you think of. I think they want to keep their face in the population (that's really important) and show the world that not everyone has to follow the US without questioning.

Dr Herbie

It could be because when Saddam had chemical weapons in the past (which he used on his own people), he bought them from France and Germany. They might find this a little embarrassing if the same chemical weapons are used against USA and/or UN troops. :~ This is no-one's opinion but my own. Dr Herbie.

Lost User

Roger Wright wrote: Thanks for sharing with the group, Michael! :-D No problems, anytime Roger. Roger Wright wrote: Is it just me, or is it politics that excites you so? ;P You Roger, definitely you. I mean 48, unemployed, Arizona, NCPA (Non Certified Practicing Accountant). What more could a man ask for? ;) Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002

Maximilien

Schlaubi wrote: For sure not it's not altruistic, but not the way you think of. I think they want to keep their face in the population (that's really important) and show the world that not everyone has to follow the US without questioning. You just won a 5 point from me. This is the whole point of the Franco-Germany situation. To have allies, France and Germany are still allied with the USA and UK, that question and force the US/UK to think and question themselves. Max.

KaRl

Mike Gaskey wrote: Both nations have sold materials to Iraq that are in violation of international agreements that: 1) were designed to stop the proliferation of nukes or chemical weapons You mean, as the US did ? Mike Gaskey wrote: and it's honest allies :laugh::laugh: not honest, but carpet. You mix allies and vassals.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Roger Wright

Good points! Thanks for the info. I hadn't considered that angle - in both cases, the leaders would be pissing off the population if they backed the war, always very risky for a politician... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Roger Wright

Yup, that would be a tad unpleasant for them. On the other hand, I think we originally supplied Saddam with chemical weapons for use in the was against Iran, so that could become quite uncomfortable, too. Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

KaRl

Roger Wright wrote: Why? I can't recall these two countries ever agreeing on any point at any time in history That was true till the end of WWII, but nowadays and on the contrary, I can't remember a situation on which we strongly and openly disagreed. Few years after WWII were our leaders cleaver enough to understand that without a friendship between our two countries a war could start again. The first step was the creation of the European Community for Coal and Steel in 1951, where both countries agreed to share their natural resource (with also Belgium, Luxembourg, Holland and Italy). The same 6 countries created the European Economic Community in 1957, integrating them in a big set a little more . 40 years ago, our leaders Adenauer and De Gaulle signed in 1963 a cooperation treaty (we celebrated its anniversary few days ago), creating more and more closer links between us (for example, our governments meet each other twice a year). In these days there are even projects of creation of a federation between our two countries. Roger Wright wrote: What could motivate them to such unity? An explanation could be both countries tried to create a common European front, to bolster a weak political Europe. The common declaration of UK, Spain, Italy and so on has ruined this, and moreover destroyed Europe as a political power (Good luck to the leaders of these countries, they will have fun to convince their people. In a few days you will probably hear about some rumbles in Spain, because of Aznar's uunconditionnal support to GWB). Both our people also share the same view on "GW2, the return". So it's easier for the governments to follow the "no war" path.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Roger Wright

Quite right, Michael. I can see how that would be an irresistable combination! I just hadn't looked at it from an Aussie perspective.;) Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

KaRl

I don't remember having seen any info on France selling chemical weapons to SH. Could you please justify? (France sold a nuclear plant in 1975, and it wasn't a good idea either. Thanks God Israeli Air Force crushed the plant, and France, with a new government, refused to sell another one to SH)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Roger Wright

Interesting bit of history... We hear little of European affairs here, so we don't pay much attention. For the average American, the countries of Europe are not terribly significant; those involved in financial markets most likely are far better informed, but few of us read those publications. When we look at the products we buy, the things around the house or garage, none of them come from Europe except a few cars that only the rich can afford. A little unity over there is a good thing - much as our individual states have proved to be more effective working together, I expect that the nations of Europe will find similar benefits from their cooperation. It's interesting that you emphasize the opposition of the people to the their governments' positions. It may surprise you to know that here it is much the same. Despite what you may read in the paper, I know of not one American who favors a war with Iraq at this time. I spend a lot of time out with others - in bars, coffee shops, stores, and meetings - and I eavesdrop, quite shamelessly. The topic is on every tongue, and the tone is universal, "Why are we doing this? It's not our problem!" Most around here see Saddam as a definite threat, but not to us, and few found the limited disclosures in Powell's presentation convincing. Right or wrong, that's fairly typical of Americans. We didn't want to be involved with WWII either, and the government officials with longer sight had to lie to us in order to support the UK against Hitler. It took a direct attack from Japan to stir the people into action. I keep my mouth shut, though. I'm outnumbered. I see Iraq as a long term threat to the entire world, and knowing something of the intel we get and what we can safely divulge, I am convinced that we've been shown only the tip of the iceberg. Your countries are in immediate danger, however, and it surprises me that the people there don't realize it. I'm hopeful that this can be resolved diplomatically, but I don't see it as very likely. The next few weeks will tell... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Mike Gaskey

Maximilien wrote: France and Germany are still allied with the USA and UK I strongly disagree. France is not an ally, period. I don't mean to imply anything "evil" but factually they are not. Germany may be, but not with the current leadership. It wouldn't shock me to see the US pull out of NATO as it currently exists and reform the organization with both Germany and France not included. Maximilien wrote: that question and force the US/UK to think and question themselves. Neither have questioned. I happen to believe that healthy debate among friends is healthy and tends to make both look at their positions in another light. I have yet to see a question, only a refusal ( France's as member of Security Council ) to live up to agreements. Specifically refusing to hold Iraq to the terms of the Security Council resolution, the one France wanted. Germany used anti-Americanism to move votes in a recent election. France has simply obstructed, not questioned. And, they have obstructed since the days of DeGaulle who was miffed because of percieved snubs during and shortly after WWII - when we didn't know for certain who in France to trust because of allegiences to Nazi Germany. This isn't new. As a teenager, which would be 50 years ago, I remember a "nuts to DeGaulle" campaign here in the US. The idea was for everyone to send him a bag of nuts to show our opinion of him I honestly do not remember the issue of that time, just the story. Mike

KaRl

Roger Wright wrote: For the average American, the countries of Europe are not terribly significant Do he? We didn't notice :) Roger Wright wrote: I expect that the nations of Europe will find similar benefits from their cooperation. Europe died this thanks to GWB, and the group of the 8. European Union will stay a free market, but nothing more, the dream of a United Europe vanished. It doesn't matter, we, France and Germany, will create something else, and if others want to join they will be welcome, but would have to follow the rules, this time. Others think France and Germany try to rule the continent. I don't believe it, I think we want sincerely create something new. Roger Wright wrote: It's interesting that [...] We care about SH, and we care also about the iraquis. We are not isolationists, this desease of the US. 75% of the french are against a war. In those, you have several categories, with different motivations: some by anti-amricanism, some by pacifism, some (as I) think a war is something serious enough to think twice. In Europe, mostly in latin countries, we have an efficient way to force the government to hear us: the street protests. We don't write to our deputy, it would be void, we go on the streets. And if we are enough, loudly, they will listen, 'cause they know that revolutions start this way :-D Roger Wright wrote: I keep my mouth shut, though With all these guns, I understand you keep your mouth shut. I've have not this problem, so I open it as often as I can :) Roger Wright wrote: Your countries are in immediate danger, however, and it surprises me that the people there don't realize it France is a nuclear power, with currently 350 H-bombs, enough to erase Russia, China, India, or US. It has always been clear that France would retaliate nuclearly in case of attack with a WMD, whatever it's nuclear, chemical, bacteriological. If SH attacks us, France will become the second nation to launch nuclear bombs on a city.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop