I'm Curious.

KaRl

I don't remember having seen any info on France selling chemical weapons to SH. Could you please justify? (France sold a nuclear plant in 1975, and it wasn't a good idea either. Thanks God Israeli Air Force crushed the plant, and France, with a new government, refused to sell another one to SH)

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Roger Wright

Interesting bit of history... We hear little of European affairs here, so we don't pay much attention. For the average American, the countries of Europe are not terribly significant; those involved in financial markets most likely are far better informed, but few of us read those publications. When we look at the products we buy, the things around the house or garage, none of them come from Europe except a few cars that only the rich can afford. A little unity over there is a good thing - much as our individual states have proved to be more effective working together, I expect that the nations of Europe will find similar benefits from their cooperation. It's interesting that you emphasize the opposition of the people to the their governments' positions. It may surprise you to know that here it is much the same. Despite what you may read in the paper, I know of not one American who favors a war with Iraq at this time. I spend a lot of time out with others - in bars, coffee shops, stores, and meetings - and I eavesdrop, quite shamelessly. The topic is on every tongue, and the tone is universal, "Why are we doing this? It's not our problem!" Most around here see Saddam as a definite threat, but not to us, and few found the limited disclosures in Powell's presentation convincing. Right or wrong, that's fairly typical of Americans. We didn't want to be involved with WWII either, and the government officials with longer sight had to lie to us in order to support the UK against Hitler. It took a direct attack from Japan to stir the people into action. I keep my mouth shut, though. I'm outnumbered. I see Iraq as a long term threat to the entire world, and knowing something of the intel we get and what we can safely divulge, I am convinced that we've been shown only the tip of the iceberg. Your countries are in immediate danger, however, and it surprises me that the people there don't realize it. I'm hopeful that this can be resolved diplomatically, but I don't see it as very likely. The next few weeks will tell... Nobody wants to read a diary by someone who has not seen the shadow of Bubba on the prison shower wall in front of them!
Paul Watson, on BLOGS and privacy - 1/16/2003

Mike Gaskey

Maximilien wrote: France and Germany are still allied with the USA and UK I strongly disagree. France is not an ally, period. I don't mean to imply anything "evil" but factually they are not. Germany may be, but not with the current leadership. It wouldn't shock me to see the US pull out of NATO as it currently exists and reform the organization with both Germany and France not included. Maximilien wrote: that question and force the US/UK to think and question themselves. Neither have questioned. I happen to believe that healthy debate among friends is healthy and tends to make both look at their positions in another light. I have yet to see a question, only a refusal ( France's as member of Security Council ) to live up to agreements. Specifically refusing to hold Iraq to the terms of the Security Council resolution, the one France wanted. Germany used anti-Americanism to move votes in a recent election. France has simply obstructed, not questioned. And, they have obstructed since the days of DeGaulle who was miffed because of percieved snubs during and shortly after WWII - when we didn't know for certain who in France to trust because of allegiences to Nazi Germany. This isn't new. As a teenager, which would be 50 years ago, I remember a "nuts to DeGaulle" campaign here in the US. The idea was for everyone to send him a bag of nuts to show our opinion of him I honestly do not remember the issue of that time, just the story. Mike

KaRl

Roger Wright wrote: For the average American, the countries of Europe are not terribly significant Do he? We didn't notice :) Roger Wright wrote: I expect that the nations of Europe will find similar benefits from their cooperation. Europe died this thanks to GWB, and the group of the 8. European Union will stay a free market, but nothing more, the dream of a United Europe vanished. It doesn't matter, we, France and Germany, will create something else, and if others want to join they will be welcome, but would have to follow the rules, this time. Others think France and Germany try to rule the continent. I don't believe it, I think we want sincerely create something new. Roger Wright wrote: It's interesting that [...] We care about SH, and we care also about the iraquis. We are not isolationists, this desease of the US. 75% of the french are against a war. In those, you have several categories, with different motivations: some by anti-amricanism, some by pacifism, some (as I) think a war is something serious enough to think twice. In Europe, mostly in latin countries, we have an efficient way to force the government to hear us: the street protests. We don't write to our deputy, it would be void, we go on the streets. And if we are enough, loudly, they will listen, 'cause they know that revolutions start this way :-D Roger Wright wrote: I keep my mouth shut, though With all these guns, I understand you keep your mouth shut. I've have not this problem, so I open it as often as I can :) Roger Wright wrote: Your countries are in immediate danger, however, and it surprises me that the people there don't realize it France is a nuclear power, with currently 350 H-bombs, enough to erase Russia, China, India, or US. It has always been clear that France would retaliate nuclearly in case of attack with a WMD, whatever it's nuclear, chemical, bacteriological. If SH attacks us, France will become the second nation to launch nuclear bombs on a city.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop