Corporate programming languages: the new lock-in
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We are planning to create our own lang.
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Meebo gloop malga onkunor feesillitude. Veeson glipta howfa tay? It's a very proprietary language. I made it up and I don't even know what it means.
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Meebo gloop malga onkunor feesillitude. Veeson glipta howfa tay? It's a very proprietary language. I made it up and I don't even know what it means.
Thought you were channeling Jar Jar Binks there for a while.
TTFN - Kent
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It's unfortunate, IMO -- programming languages, like programs themselves, were once carefully crafted and engineered things. Of course, that's just a delusion on my part. But it seems like nowadays, just about anybody can put some pile of syntax together and come out with some custom language. This cruft even affects C#, which I hold in high regard. The difference though is, years ago, the programming language was the thing. Nowadays, I think the language takes more of a back seat, or at least the passenger seat, to the supporting framework and community. But the problem, following Rosenberg, is that declaring allegiance to one language tends to block you from others. Developers simply don't have time to master a number of competing development platforms: And that is exactly where the author steps on his shoe laces and trips, by swapping "language" with "development platform." Certainly, a language like Java is not tied to Android, just as Ruby is not tied to Linux development. The two are very different. I find that I can pick up a language in a matter of hours or days, but it's the development platform and supporting framework that can take months, if not years to master. For developers, then, choosing a language is like choosing citizenship in a country. You’re not only buying into syntax and semantics. You’re buying into economics and culture, the rules that shape how you earn your livelihood and the forces that channel your hopes and dreams. The funny thing is, I don't look at the language first. If I'm going to develop for Android, I look for the best toolset and development platform, the language just comes along for the ride. But that's me. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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Thought you were channeling Jar Jar Binks there for a while.
TTFN - Kent
Kent Sharkey wrote:
Thought you were channeling Jar Jar Binks there for a while.
:laugh: That's what I thought too! Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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It's unfortunate, IMO -- programming languages, like programs themselves, were once carefully crafted and engineered things. Of course, that's just a delusion on my part. But it seems like nowadays, just about anybody can put some pile of syntax together and come out with some custom language. This cruft even affects C#, which I hold in high regard. The difference though is, years ago, the programming language was the thing. Nowadays, I think the language takes more of a back seat, or at least the passenger seat, to the supporting framework and community. But the problem, following Rosenberg, is that declaring allegiance to one language tends to block you from others. Developers simply don't have time to master a number of competing development platforms: And that is exactly where the author steps on his shoe laces and trips, by swapping "language" with "development platform." Certainly, a language like Java is not tied to Android, just as Ruby is not tied to Linux development. The two are very different. I find that I can pick up a language in a matter of hours or days, but it's the development platform and supporting framework that can take months, if not years to master. For developers, then, choosing a language is like choosing citizenship in a country. You’re not only buying into syntax and semantics. You’re buying into economics and culture, the rules that shape how you earn your livelihood and the forces that channel your hopes and dreams. The funny thing is, I don't look at the language first. If I'm going to develop for Android, I look for the best toolset and development platform, the language just comes along for the ride. But that's me. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
well said Marc
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It's unfortunate, IMO -- programming languages, like programs themselves, were once carefully crafted and engineered things. Of course, that's just a delusion on my part. But it seems like nowadays, just about anybody can put some pile of syntax together and come out with some custom language. This cruft even affects C#, which I hold in high regard. The difference though is, years ago, the programming language was the thing. Nowadays, I think the language takes more of a back seat, or at least the passenger seat, to the supporting framework and community. But the problem, following Rosenberg, is that declaring allegiance to one language tends to block you from others. Developers simply don't have time to master a number of competing development platforms: And that is exactly where the author steps on his shoe laces and trips, by swapping "language" with "development platform." Certainly, a language like Java is not tied to Android, just as Ruby is not tied to Linux development. The two are very different. I find that I can pick up a language in a matter of hours or days, but it's the development platform and supporting framework that can take months, if not years to master. For developers, then, choosing a language is like choosing citizenship in a country. You’re not only buying into syntax and semantics. You’re buying into economics and culture, the rules that shape how you earn your livelihood and the forces that channel your hopes and dreams. The funny thing is, I don't look at the language first. If I'm going to develop for Android, I look for the best toolset and development platform, the language just comes along for the ride. But that's me. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
I just had this discussion with the guy who is going to replace me at my current job. He said he refused to do database work because he was a C# developer. Personally I think that's pretty narrow minded (and even ridiculous). I can understand you leave the heavy database work to the experts, but refusing because you're a C# dev? I think every developer should have a basic SQL knowledge (and I know it's actually a problem that many haven't!). So he asked me if I wanted to be a good C# developer and if I did I couldn't also do SQL (I couldn't be good at both and I needed to make a choice). Well, there's the point. I think by knowing about other languages and paradigms you become a better programmer in all. You can learn the syntax of any language in a few weeks tops (especially once you've seen a few!). Knowing about memory management, type systems, patterns, data structures, etc. makes you ease into any language fairly easy. The hard part is getting to know the libraries and environment and we have tons of those and everyone uses different libraries anyway, even in C#. Well, his 'responsibility' for the software ended with the Entity Framework. And with his lack of SQL knowledge I bet he'll write some pretty horrible LINQ queries :)
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
} -
I just had this discussion with the guy who is going to replace me at my current job. He said he refused to do database work because he was a C# developer. Personally I think that's pretty narrow minded (and even ridiculous). I can understand you leave the heavy database work to the experts, but refusing because you're a C# dev? I think every developer should have a basic SQL knowledge (and I know it's actually a problem that many haven't!). So he asked me if I wanted to be a good C# developer and if I did I couldn't also do SQL (I couldn't be good at both and I needed to make a choice). Well, there's the point. I think by knowing about other languages and paradigms you become a better programmer in all. You can learn the syntax of any language in a few weeks tops (especially once you've seen a few!). Knowing about memory management, type systems, patterns, data structures, etc. makes you ease into any language fairly easy. The hard part is getting to know the libraries and environment and we have tons of those and everyone uses different libraries anyway, even in C#. Well, his 'responsibility' for the software ended with the Entity Framework. And with his lack of SQL knowledge I bet he'll write some pretty horrible LINQ queries :)
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
}Sander Rossel wrote:
He said he refused to do database work because he was a C# developer.
:omg:
Sander Rossel wrote:
if I wanted to be a good C# developer and if I did I couldn't also do SQL (I couldn't be good at both and I needed to make a choice).
:doh: Wow, I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, and all that stuff about diversity makes the world go around, but there are times when you just have call it for what it is-- BS! Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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Sander Rossel wrote:
He said he refused to do database work because he was a C# developer.
:omg:
Sander Rossel wrote:
if I wanted to be a good C# developer and if I did I couldn't also do SQL (I couldn't be good at both and I needed to make a choice).
:doh: Wow, I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, and all that stuff about diversity makes the world go around, but there are times when you just have call it for what it is-- BS! Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
And that's the reason that I'm leaving the company... Management probably agrees with this guy. They probably hate the fact that with one MS SQL certificate I'm more certified than their 'SQL experts' (actually I'm the most certified SQL guy in the company) and that I do my own SQL work as a developer. And what does it take to become a SQL expert? You only not need to know how to write applications. Seriously, if you're not a programmer you're a SQL specialist (that's why none of our specialists have certificates). I'll be damned that I walk over to a coworker, explain to him what I need, wait until he is finished, explain it to him again when he delivers something that's just not what I wanted, then wait again and some more because I'm not his top priority anyway and repeat that process every time I need a change if I can do it myself in 15 minutes. It's so bad that the company is paying for almost every course, study, certificate, training etc. we want (I'm the only one who wants it anyway), but they didn't pay for my SQL certificate (we're talking €90,- here, I did all the recommended training at home with my own resources) and they even tried to talk me out of it. Well, I wrote two prize-winning SQL articles, got that certificate, let our biggest customer know about my certificate and articles (someone called with a SQL problem, so I casually mentioned my articles :D) and now whenever they have a SQL problem it's me they come to and not my colleague 'SQL experts'. I think I handled that pretty well :cool: My new company (starting in two weeks!) only hires programmers (even the marketing and sales people have written code at some point in their life) and they already taught me something about SQL on my application interview :D As you can imagine I'm glad to leave the company I'm currently working for :~ Mind you that it wasn't always like this. When I started here four years ago everyone did everything and everyone was a (starting) developer. I'm not sure what went wrong...
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
} -
And that's the reason that I'm leaving the company... Management probably agrees with this guy. They probably hate the fact that with one MS SQL certificate I'm more certified than their 'SQL experts' (actually I'm the most certified SQL guy in the company) and that I do my own SQL work as a developer. And what does it take to become a SQL expert? You only not need to know how to write applications. Seriously, if you're not a programmer you're a SQL specialist (that's why none of our specialists have certificates). I'll be damned that I walk over to a coworker, explain to him what I need, wait until he is finished, explain it to him again when he delivers something that's just not what I wanted, then wait again and some more because I'm not his top priority anyway and repeat that process every time I need a change if I can do it myself in 15 minutes. It's so bad that the company is paying for almost every course, study, certificate, training etc. we want (I'm the only one who wants it anyway), but they didn't pay for my SQL certificate (we're talking €90,- here, I did all the recommended training at home with my own resources) and they even tried to talk me out of it. Well, I wrote two prize-winning SQL articles, got that certificate, let our biggest customer know about my certificate and articles (someone called with a SQL problem, so I casually mentioned my articles :D) and now whenever they have a SQL problem it's me they come to and not my colleague 'SQL experts'. I think I handled that pretty well :cool: My new company (starting in two weeks!) only hires programmers (even the marketing and sales people have written code at some point in their life) and they already taught me something about SQL on my application interview :D As you can imagine I'm glad to leave the company I'm currently working for :~ Mind you that it wasn't always like this. When I started here four years ago everyone did everything and everyone was a (starting) developer. I'm not sure what went wrong...
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
}Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm not sure what went wrong...
If you look, I bet you'll find a trail that leads back to management thinking that compartmentalizing work processes and knowledge in the name of "efficiency" (not realizing that the current process was the most efficient and resilient) was what initiated the isolationist thinking. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
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Sander Rossel wrote:
I'm not sure what went wrong...
If you look, I bet you'll find a trail that leads back to management thinking that compartmentalizing work processes and knowledge in the name of "efficiency" (not realizing that the current process was the most efficient and resilient) was what initiated the isolationist thinking. Marc
Imperative to Functional Programming Succinctly Contributors Wanted for Higher Order Programming Project!
