Man arrested for t-shirt (cont.)

Jason Henderson

I'm not asking for comments on the lounge thread, this one is entirely different. Read my response to Paul.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

Paul Riley

Jason Henderson wrote: Lets leave these questions to the Lounge thread. Can't be bothered. Threads that big mean paging backwards and forward and I haven't got the energy (or a fast enough connection for 50-100 posts per page) :-D Jason Henderson wrote: I'm just trying to make a point that these protesters seem to be missing. We want civil rights for ourselves but not Iraqis. (Its not our business. ) Well, frankly, that isn't the point is it? We're not attacking Iraq to make the world a better place for Iraqis, we're attacking it to make it disarm. The fact that it should improve the standard of living for most Iraqis is a fortunate byproduct that the pro-war contingent seem to have picked up on heavily over the last few days. The problem is that it's not very convincing. We (the West) have replaced oppressive leaders in Iraq many times since we created it and the Iraqis have never been happy with them. Then we used this argument in Afghanistan and many historically independant reporters in Europe (or in Afghanistan, for Europe) are pointing out that we haven't really improved much and as soon as we pull out, it's all going to hell again. (I'm not arguing this is true or not, I'm explaining why this argument falls on deaf ears) I would suggest that we stick to the issue of disarmament, rather than trying to make claims about what might happen in the long-run. No? Paul We all will feed the worms and trees
So don't be shy - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song

Paul Riley

Shog9 wrote: pretty much every fast food and convenience store in La Crosse, as it turns out... This experience talking? ;P Paul We all will feed the worms and trees
So don't be shy - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song

Jason Henderson

Paul Riley wrote: The problem is that it's not very convincing. We (the West) have replaced oppressive leaders in Iraq many times since we created it and the Iraqis have never been happy with them. Replacing one despot with another is no improvement. From what I've heard, Iraq will be democratic after all this. In the long run it is about civil rights. Rights for them and for us. Without the rule of law and prudent security, our rights will leave us as well and that's exactly what the terrorists want (imo). As far as Afghanistan goes, I doubt that we will let it collapse into an Islamic state again. (At least not until President Hillary pulls us out of the Middle East in 2009.)

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Paul Riley

Jason Henderson wrote: Replacing one despot with another is no improvement. From what I've heard, Iraq will be democratic after all this. That's the long-term aim, but how do you ensure it? The obvious replacements are no better than Hussein. There's a very good chance that given an immediate election, the oppressed majority will elect someone likely to oppress those with control now. We've seen the results of that in Northern Ireland. Jason Henderson wrote: In the long run it is about civil rights. Rights for them and for us. Without the rule of law and prudent security, our rights will leave us as well and that's exactly what the terrorists want (imo). I'd agree with the last bit, but I suspect this war is more about us than about them. Personally, I'm not particularly bothered by that because I suspect in the long-term everyone will be better off. But I think that kidding ourselves that we're doing it for someone else's benefit only makes the security issue look weaker... not to mention that it's illegal under international law. Jason Henderson wrote: As far as Afghanistan goes, I doubt that we will let it collapse into an Islamic state again. (At least not until President Hillary pulls us out of the Middle East in 2009.) I wish I could be so confident. But we'll see... The point is that there's no indication yet that we've done them a big favour, so the argument seems less strong when we repeat it for Iraq. Paul We all will feed the worms and trees
So don't be shy - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song

Jason Henderson

Paul Riley wrote: The point is that there's no indication yet that we've done them a big favour, so the argument seems less strong when we repeat it for Iraq. I disagree, I think things have improved dramatically as far as civil rights go. Women are able to go to school, men can shave their beards, people aren't being killed for religious reasons, etc. Once the rule of law is established and an army is trained, it should improve even more.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Anna Jayne Metcalfe

I'm with you on that one Jason. It's going to be a long haul to make it all stick though - I just hope we have the commitment to support the country while it heals itself thoroughly. Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Paul Riley

Jason Henderson wrote: I disagree, I think things have improved dramatically as far as civil rights go. Women are able to go to school, men can shave their beards, people aren't being killed for religious reasons, etc. Once the rule of law is established and an army is trained, it should improve even more. I hope and assume that this is true, until I see evidence to the contrary. But it's not people like me that need convincing with talk about how many favours we'll be doing the Iraqi people. Some need evidence that what the US has done is right before it is allowed to do anthing else and I do think the US would be doing itself a big favour by producing that evidence. Paul We all will feed the worms and trees
So don't be shy - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song

peterchen

Oh... so you've lived in Iraq if you're so sure about it? He didn't protest Bush, so the comparison is slightly off.

If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
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Jason Henderson

Are you really that naive? :confused:

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Mike Gaskey

Jason Henderson wrote: At least not until President Hillary pulls us Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Mike

Shog9 0

:-O ---

My whole life I've practiced the art of self-sabotage -- fearing success perhaps even more than fearing failure. I think I have got this flareup resolved, but I'm constantly waiting to see what new and exciting ways I can spoil my chances for a better life. - koreykruse, Compulsive Skin Picking

Daniel Ferguson

Just to keep this in perspective, this man would have been shot in Iraq if he were protesting Saddam. It didn't happen in Iraq, and your imagining that it might have does not change the outcome of the situation that actually did happen here.

"Pretending to guide me, you led me astray, And I don't want to fall into your kind of ways." "Melt", Front 242

Daniel Ferguson

I disagree, I think things have improved dramatically as far as civil rights go. Women are able to go to school ... .. and people are being arrested for wearing t-shirts that someone else doesn't agree with....

"Pretending to guide me, you led me astray, And I don't want to fall into your kind of ways." "Melt", Front 242

Daniel Ferguson

Oh, so we're skipping rational discussion based on facts and moving directly on to cheap insults now? [edit]And now we're skipping the cheap insults and just voting posts down? Obviously you're not very confident in your point of view. :|[/edit]

"Pretending to guide me, you led me astray, And I don't want to fall into your kind of ways." "Melt", Front 242

Daniel Ferguson

I'm just trying to make a point that these protesters seem to be missing. We want civil rights for ourselves but not Iraqis. Being arrested for wearing a t-shirt is a loss of civil rights. Besides, where did you get this 'information' that the war has anything to do with civil rights?

"Pretending to guide me, you led me astray, And I don't want to fall into your kind of ways." "Melt", Front 242

peterchen

I don't know if it's naiviety or simple doubt: let me tell you where it comes from. East & West germany have been living side to side for 40 years, sharing the same history, and and, basically, we started with the same people. Yet after the fall of the wall, it was frightening how uninformed one was about the other. For the east, it was hard to separate what was propaganda and what was the truth. For the west, most simply didn't care. More startling than the uninformedness was the misinformation. Did we have hot running water? Did we have refrigerators*? Didn't everybody who critizised "the system" vanish immediately? Yes, Yes, No. It was amazing how far you could go if you knew your way. A Dictatorship doesn't work by banning white T-Shirts. It works by making people afraid of wearing them. And you want to tell me you know what happens to someone who wears a GPAC T' in Iraq? You can smoke your certainty in a pipe, sir.

If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen

Jason Henderson

peterchen wrote: A Dictatorship doesn't work by banning white T-Shirts. It works by making people afraid of wearing them. So are you now calling the U.S. or the Bush administration a dictatorship? The administration had nothing to do with this incident. peterchen wrote: And you want to tell me you know what happens to someone who wears a GPAC T' in Iraq? I did not mention a GPAC t-shirt in my original post, I said "opposes Saddam" or something like that. Of course Saddam will love anyone wearing that shirt now, but it is a fact that Iraqis disappear when they openly oppose Mr. Hussein.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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peterchen

Jason Henderson wrote: So are you now calling the U.S. or the Bush administration a dictatorship? No, I intentionally didn't. You jumped to this conclusion. I merely stated my experience how these things work. As said, I doubt that everybody disappears immediately - this is to simplistic. If you consider this naivety of me, fine with me. (If you knew me better, you would know that naivety is rarely found with me. Positive assumption in the absence of knowledge, maybe.)

If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen