It's amazing...

Jamie Hale

... how war brings out the worst in us, huh? I have never been witness to so much hatred and truly disgusting behaviour. I expected more from you folks. J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."
la ilah ila Allah

Lost User

It is a question of core values, isn't it? You never know someone unless bad times hit. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

Stan Shannon

Really? Maybe I've missed something, but I've been sort of interested in how civil the discourse seems to have become. For my part, I've decided that my opinions seem somewhat trivial when compared to people actually sacrificing their lives for principles which for me are merely academic. "My job is to protect America" George W. Bush.

Jamie Hale

Granted, I haven't seem you embedded in many (if any) heated debates recently. Have you been ill? :) You make a valid point, though, that our opinions are trivial considering we're not truly involved. I wish others would notice it. It applies neatly to people on both sides of this so-called "war". J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."

Jon Sagara

Jamie Hale wrote: "You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant." "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy photographs..." Great song. :) http://www.arlo.net/lyrics/alices.shtml[^]

Jon Sagara

You know the world is off tilt, when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest basketball player is Chinese, and Germany doesn't want to go to war. -- Charles Barkley

Jamie Hale

... with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back one explainin' what each one was to be used as evidence against us... J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."

Chris Losinger

Jamie Hale wrote: how war brings out the worst in us, huh? yeah. some people even go so far as to shoot, bomb and gas each other when war breaks out. i think our little skirmishes here are pretty controlled, in comparison. :) -c

Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler

Jon Sagara

I first heard that song in a Music of the 60's class that I took at the university. And they say that general education is worthless. :laugh:

Jon Sagara

You know the world is off tilt, when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest basketball player is Chinese, and Germany doesn't want to go to war. -- Charles Barkley

Jamie Hale

I first heard it when I was about 8. My parents still have it on vinyl. J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."

Jeremy Falcon

Just because I have no control over the course of events in the war does not make me uninvolved. Many people are/will be affected one way or another - that in itself is involvement. Some of us were thrown into the mix simply because we care about one or more aspects of the war. If you have no ties to it, ok, but to assume everyone is like that is absurd. Jeremy Falcon "so be it, threaten no more, to secure peace is to prepare for war" - Metallica

Shog9 0

Jon Sagara wrote: You know the world is off tilt, when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest basketball player is Chinese, and Germany doesn't want to go to war. -- Charles Barkley :-D ---

But, oh god / Under the weight of life / Things seem / Brighter on the other side - David Matthews, Big Eyed Fish

Jamie Hale

I understand your brother is involved. I truly hope he comes home safe. But your house isn't being bombed. Your country is not being invaded. The point is not that we have no control. The point is that we're so far removed from the conflict that we have no way of arguing except based on our interpretation of someone else's stories. We're arguing based on theory and opinion not knowing what's really going on. I most definitely have ties to this. First and foremost, I'm human. And my fellow humans are killing each other and no one knows the exact reason why. Secondly, I decided a while ago that were it necessary, I would step up and defend my country. But holy shit will I ever be pissed off if I have to go to war because GW has a vendetta against Hussein. Third and most importantly, some day I will have to explain to my child why all these people died - and I won't be able to. That being said, I still say it's next to pointless to argue based on which source of news you watch. And it's utterly disgusting that the majority of these arguments seem to arise because a Muslim posts something that a westerner doesn't like. J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."
la ilah ila Allah

Doug Goulden

Jamie Hale wrote: Secondly, I decided a while ago that were it necessary, I would step up and defend my country How kind of you, I guess we should all wait until you feel threatened enough to be concerned. Jamie Hale wrote: But holy sh*t will I ever be pissed off if I have to go to war because GW has a vendetta against Hussein I must have missed the reinstatement of the draft..... Jamie Hale wrote: And my fellow humans are killing each other and no one knows the exact reason why. Thats easy , people kill each other because they can't get each other to agree any other way. Once they are dead they can't argue any more. Simple. Arguement started in '91, Saddam Hussein entered another country and took over. UN with the US leading the charge, convinced him to leave. Saddam stayed out of other countries, but over the next 12 years failed to abide by the previous solution to the disagreement. Due to change in the US's world outlook in 2001, the US decided proactively remove sources of instability. GW requested that Taliban hand over perpetrator of 9/11 attacks they refused. During the resultant disagreement over terms the Taliban was removed. GW and many Americans feel that Saddam Hussein represents a similar threat. Therefore he was offered the oppurtunity to leave. Unfortunately he didn't see fit to agree so again we are in a strong disagreement. So when you have to explain to your child why the US had to remove Saddam Hussein and why the people died, tell him that Saddam didn't understand he shouldn't hurt fellow human beings so we protected them from him. Simple. We asked him to leave, he didn't, he will die. Probably by his own people bfore this is done. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Marc Clifton

Jamie Hale wrote: I expected more from you folks. It's a reflection of the diversity of the human population. You can either rejoice in that diversity or condemn it. Everyone is at a different place, spiritually, emotionally and intellectually, and for the most part, it seems that we're all (myself definitely included) struggling to figure out where that place is, and where it is we really want to be. I've seen war bring out the best in people too. "The Occult Significance Of Forgiveness by Sergei O. Prokofieff[^] has a very powerful story of one man's ability to forgive the Nazi's that killed his family. Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files"

Jamie Hale

Remember that democracy and freedom your country preaches? We have that too up here in Canada. And as such, I have right to make my own decisions. My decision is to fight for my country should the need ever arise. At present I don't believe that need is present. All I see is a large country bullying smaller ones - including Canada. I believe - as is my democratic right - that the US got impatient without fully exploring the diplomatic solutions. My comment about being pissed off stems from this possible situation: the US annoys enough of the Arab states to escalate this simple invasion into a full-blown racial war. The UN gets enough balls to start defending the countries that pay their bills and that don't try to evade their decisions. That would drag Canada into a situation that might necissitate a draft. If that were the case, I would not (as my childhood convictions dictated) attempt to avoid it. I would enlist because I believe in the Canadian version of freedom and democracy. And that, sir, would mean I was being forced to put my life on the line - along with the chance to ever see my daughter again - because Mr. Bush has a vendetta. Is that a little more explicit for you? As to the regurgitated justification you give, I again say that the US failed to exhaust the diplomatic solutions. I don't pretend to understand world politics fully, but I do have faith in the UN. I know you don't, and that's where we disagree. I do, however, agree to your first statement - that the US kills people because they can't get the others to agree with them. J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."
la ilah ila Allah

Jamie Hale

It's nice to find an optimist in the crowd. :) Thanks for the link. I was, however, simply referring to the rude behaviour that some of the regulars have exhibited when a Muslim posts something contrary to the US way. J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."

Lost User

Jamie Hale wrote: the US failed to exhaust the diplomatic solutions. #1 - After 12 years, what more would you have liked to see done? #2 - What about Canada and the rest of the world? What did they do during the last 12 years? Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

Doug Goulden

Jamie Hale wrote: Remember that democracy and freedom your country preaches Sure do, I have defended it Jamie Hale wrote: We have that too up here in Canada. And as such, I have right to make my own decisions Thank God for that Jamie Hale wrote: At present I don't believe that need is present. All I see is a large country bullying smaller ones - including Canada I don't see Canada making any kind of stand, how has Canada suffered in any of this? Jamie Hale wrote: My comment about being pissed off stems from this possible situation: the US annoys enough of the Arab states to escalate this simple invasion into a full-blown racial war Since when did Al Quada need an excuse to start their "holy war"? Or how about Ansar al-Islam(those would be the people they think brought ricin to London)? Did the Taliban need a reason to support Al Quada? Maybe you mean Hamas or the Islamic Jihad? In case you haven't heard some of these people don't really follow the same logical thought process you and I might. They hae people for whatever reasons they feel are appropriate. Jamie Hale wrote: As to the regurgitated justification you give, I again say that the US failed to exhaust the diplomatic solutions. I don't pretend to understand world politics fully, but I do have faith in the UN. I know you don't, and that's where we disagree Obviously, I think that it doesn't have to take more than 12 years to determine if a course of action is going to be effective. Jamie Hale wrote: The UN gets enough balls to start defending the countries that pay their bills and that don't try to evade their decisions That seems to be the source of the whole problem now doesn't it. The UN didn't have the balls to enforce the terms of the cease fire for 12 years, nor the balls to protect Kosovo. Maybe the reality is that the UN is ineffective at protecting anyone. I don't know about you but I haven't heard of the UN protecting anyone's liberty. If memory serves as a matter of fact, Libya is in charge of their human rights council and Iraq was due to take charge of their weapons non-proliferation program until they declined. Don't even try to convice me that they are an effective source of world stability. Jamie Hale wrote: I do, however, agree to your first statement - that the US kills people because they can't get the

Jamie Hale

Here's a potentially interesting idea: The US is willing to spend 75 billion dollars blowing shit up over there, right? Why not take a tenth of that cash, and air-drop food and supplies. That much money would buy enough food to completely saturate the country-side. There would be too much for Hussein's people to hoard. The people would get enough. And if the people of Iraq are willing to fight for their country with what little the regime provides them, can you image how quickly a well fed populace would oust Hussein? I won't say it's the perfect solution, because hey, what the hell do I know? And as for Canada, they have supported the UN because that's what the UN is all about. We didn't sell arms to Iraq. We didn't support Hussein in the past. We lost troops in the first Gulf War - more than the US I seem to recall. We supported the invasion of Afghanistan, and we still have peace-keepers there. Hell we even lost troops in Afghanistan to US mistakes. We happily took in hundreds of Americans when their flights were put down in remote communities all over our country. We sent our own emergency workers to assist with the WTC clean-up. And now, because our leader has chosen not to go against the decision of the UN, we get flack from the US? Fickle. What more would you have us do? Other than ignore the better part of the rest of the planet and go shoot some people for you? I'm afraid this is getting way off topic. My original post was simply to bring to people's attention that perhaps it's not necessary (or polite) to be as beligerant as possible to your fellow CPians because they happen to be Muslim and happen to not support the US. J

"You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant."

Jeremy Falcon

On an earlier post Jamie Hale wrote: The point is that we're so far removed from the conflict that we have no way of arguing except based on our interpretation of someone else's stories. We're arguing based on theory and opinion not knowing what's really going on. On an earlier post Jamie Hale wrote: That being said, I still say it's next to pointless to argue based on which source of news you watch. ================================================== Jamie Hale wrote: All I see is a large country bullying smaller ones - including Canada. Jamie Hale wrote: As to the regurgitated justification you give, I again say that the US failed to exhaust the diplomatic solutions. Jamie Hale wrote: I do, however, agree to your first statement - that the US kills people because they can't get the others to agree with them. ================================================== I appreciate your concern for my brother. As far as my thoughts go, you're contradicting yourself. Here are a few points that I'd like to make with my limited political knowledge. One: the US doesn't kill people that don't agree with them. If so, we'd be bombing France, Canada, etc. Two: You do not know for certain that we failed to exhaust every possible solution, just as I do not know for certain that we tried everything. Everything we get from the media is regurgitated anyway, and as has been stated before; we are nowhere near as informed as our leaders are. Three: Remember, the US was founded by people of all sorts that didn't take "no" for an answer, and they migrated to America. We still carry that same mentality. It's up to you to decide for yourself whether or not that's a good thing. As far me, I say it is. Jeremy Falcon "so be it, threaten no more, to secure peace is to prepare for war" - Metallica