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  3. Preventing Piracy

Preventing Piracy

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  • D Offline
    D Offline
    David Wulff
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

    L J B C 7 Replies Last reply
    0
    • D David Wulff

      Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

      L Offline
      L Offline
      Lost User
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      I just would like to mention that I use ZoneAlarm from ZoneLabs to prevent software from 'leaking' back to the 'manufacturer'. ;-P I am not really a paranoid person ( and neither a pirate ) , but ( - I can't help it - ) I do find some of your suggestions creepy... It has been suggested - more than once - that the real way to beat piracy is to sell services rather than to sell products. As to the rest of your prose, I find it well written, beautifully organized and to the point. ;-) I am curious as to what a law expert will say...

      L 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • D David Wulff

        Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

        J Offline
        J Offline
        John Fisher
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        From news articles I've noticed in the last couple of months, it looks as though Microsoft has found what it believes to be the answer to this question. If I remember correctly, their new software will run a number of times (20?) before online registration is required before operating again. (A hacker might be able to fake a count like that, so maybe you'd rather drop that portion.) In my limited knowledge of the privacy laws, it would appear that a forced online registration is just fine. But! Users might not buy your software... Anyway, marketing and user purchasing issues aside, this looks like a probable solution. Of course you would need to decide on the correct information to collect and appropriately tie the user to his software while still allowing him to give or sell it to someone else and avoid nasty messages from you. (Just my 2 cents. :)) John

        D 1 Reply Last reply
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        • D David Wulff

          Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

          B Offline
          B Offline
          Berkut
          wrote on last edited by
          #4

          The only problem with getting people to click the OK button which says "Dear User, we have detected that you may be breaking the law. Please can you send the information required to prosecute you to us by choosing the ok button below.", is that they are incriminating themselves. As the relatively recents human rights court cases here in the UK regarding the letters people get sent after being caught by speed cameras asking them to state it was them driving - and thereby incriminating themselves - shows, it is against their human rights (for some strange reason.).

          D 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • D David Wulff

            Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

            L Offline
            L Offline
            Lost User
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            I believe that this was already beaten about last month or so on here; basically, you're screwed, period. Any method that you can come up with will be hacked very fast. The absolute best way to combat piracy is to sell a great product with great support at a great price, and simply realize that there are people who will not, for any reason, pay for software - even when they can afford it. I mean, why in the world would anyone keygen Winzip when there are free alternatives? Plus Winzip is cheap. If your program is a Internet related product, you can put in the license agreement that the program checks for updates and such on occasion (but this can be patched, of course). Or if your program is a web-based app, the point is moot: you're running online all the time. The real "worry" is that small businesses or high schools will buy one copy and put it on their server for everyone. Simply simply giving nice price breaks to bulk copies and/or schools can solve this. Anti-piracy "agencies" are worthless against single users; there are too many Joe User's out there, and it's much more effective (and lucrative) to go after Joe Business. There is also some issues with case law here that if the user GIVES the stupid thing away, it's ok, more or less (but if you've got a pile that you're giving copies away, then you're probably in trouble, since as what happened this year with Phrozen Crew I believe). Very gray area, and unless you can prove intent to distribute, and have logs and such (oh sure, they keep those right?), you’re probably wasting your time. Also, it's not the "pirates" that have more legal rights; it's the USERS, which includes all of us, even you, that have these rights. Otherwise, businesses can simply take your money, give you no service, and you would have no legal recourse. I'm QUITE sure you'd be pleased if Microsoft turned off your entire system (or had the coppers at your door) because someone grabbed your Win98 cd key and installed at your local school. There are already enough problems with privacy (or lack thereof) that is causing serious issues these days; we do not need any more.

            D 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • J John Fisher

              From news articles I've noticed in the last couple of months, it looks as though Microsoft has found what it believes to be the answer to this question. If I remember correctly, their new software will run a number of times (20?) before online registration is required before operating again. (A hacker might be able to fake a count like that, so maybe you'd rather drop that portion.) In my limited knowledge of the privacy laws, it would appear that a forced online registration is just fine. But! Users might not buy your software... Anyway, marketing and user purchasing issues aside, this looks like a probable solution. Of course you would need to decide on the correct information to collect and appropriately tie the user to his software while still allowing him to give or sell it to someone else and avoid nasty messages from you. (Just my 2 cents. :)) John

              D Offline
              D Offline
              David Wulff
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              >> while still allowing him to give or sell it to >> someone else and avoid nasty messages from you. Once the software has been licensed to a particular user or organisation, they would have to have the license trasffered when selling the software anyway, so this is not a major problem (although some would always slip theough). And anyway, i'm not talking about getting every single person who uses the software who 'might' not be a licensed user, but rather those who use software registered with a serial number that has already been used twenty or so times over the licensed quantity (so is unlikely to be a mistake). David Wulff

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • L Lost User

                I just would like to mention that I use ZoneAlarm from ZoneLabs to prevent software from 'leaking' back to the 'manufacturer'. ;-P I am not really a paranoid person ( and neither a pirate ) , but ( - I can't help it - ) I do find some of your suggestions creepy... It has been suggested - more than once - that the real way to beat piracy is to sell services rather than to sell products. As to the rest of your prose, I find it well written, beautifully organized and to the point. ;-) I am curious as to what a law expert will say...

                L Offline
                L Offline
                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                gbo is talking about two important facts. The first is that there are literally hundreds of utilities which effectively will prevent any of the suggested approaches from working, such as a firewall or some kind of a network logger, at least without it being detected. And as soon it is detected, one can be sure a 'cracker' will disable the unwanted feature and release a patch immediately. In fact, such a feature would probably not go undetected while the 'cracker' is working with the removal of any of the other types of copy protections the application are using, so when it is released to the pirate network it will never become activated. The other is the law, or more importantly, the many different law systems around the world. Most democratic countries considers the rights and protection of privacy to be among the most important parts of their constitution. There are many good reasons for this, but that is not something I'm going to talk about here, so I just look upon it as a hard fact. Sending information without a user's knowledge or permission would not be any different from placing hidden microphones in his or her apartment, bugging the phone, reading the mail and so forth. We just cannot accept that. Second, if you plan to target more than one nation's market, you would have to deal with just as many law systems. It will be difficult, expensive, and time consuming. I have another suggestion: Stop Using Copy Protections! Why? Well, think of it. Every single minute you and your company spend on creating, implementing and managing copy protections will have to be paid in one way or another, and it usually increases the application's price as well as the enduser's total cost of ownership. The only ones who will be affected by it are the honest, legitimate users. (Pirates will always be able to use the application, no matter how you try to protect it.) And chances are great that your copy protections are experienced as troublesome and awkward, which will influence how the users experience your application in a negative direction. Most companies of any importance will always pay for the tools they use, as long as the license agreement are easily understood and made clear to the management. So I think that if you focus on these honest customers and show them some confidence, your business will become (even) more successful.

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • L Lost User

                  I believe that this was already beaten about last month or so on here; basically, you're screwed, period. Any method that you can come up with will be hacked very fast. The absolute best way to combat piracy is to sell a great product with great support at a great price, and simply realize that there are people who will not, for any reason, pay for software - even when they can afford it. I mean, why in the world would anyone keygen Winzip when there are free alternatives? Plus Winzip is cheap. If your program is a Internet related product, you can put in the license agreement that the program checks for updates and such on occasion (but this can be patched, of course). Or if your program is a web-based app, the point is moot: you're running online all the time. The real "worry" is that small businesses or high schools will buy one copy and put it on their server for everyone. Simply simply giving nice price breaks to bulk copies and/or schools can solve this. Anti-piracy "agencies" are worthless against single users; there are too many Joe User's out there, and it's much more effective (and lucrative) to go after Joe Business. There is also some issues with case law here that if the user GIVES the stupid thing away, it's ok, more or less (but if you've got a pile that you're giving copies away, then you're probably in trouble, since as what happened this year with Phrozen Crew I believe). Very gray area, and unless you can prove intent to distribute, and have logs and such (oh sure, they keep those right?), you’re probably wasting your time. Also, it's not the "pirates" that have more legal rights; it's the USERS, which includes all of us, even you, that have these rights. Otherwise, businesses can simply take your money, give you no service, and you would have no legal recourse. I'm QUITE sure you'd be pleased if Microsoft turned off your entire system (or had the coppers at your door) because someone grabbed your Win98 cd key and installed at your local school. There are already enough problems with privacy (or lack thereof) that is causing serious issues these days; we do not need any more.

                  D Offline
                  D Offline
                  David Wulff
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #8

                  >> Any method that you can come up with will be hacked very fast. I know this, but it would still catch the pirates at your local market (who normally just burn another CD), and you could always make is more difficult to crack by using encryption/random compression/etc, and call the check with the server from random places within the code, so the hacker must remove twenty or more checks). Then by including file size checks, etc, you could make it into a week-long task for the hacker, so deter all but the very best. >> you can put in the license agreement that the program checks for updates and such on occasion I never thought of that. If there was a section in the agreement that read something like "If your unique serial number is suspected to have has been used to register pirate software, your registration may be sent to our servers to enable a new serial number to be assigned to you, and/or your license validated.", then if the user agrees to it, they couldn't say we were invading their privacy (as they gave permission). >> Microsoft turned off your entire system (or had the coppers at your door) because someone grabbed your Win98 cd key and installed at your local school But in this case YOU would be the registered license holder, you would be ignored. David Wulff

                  L 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • B Berkut

                    The only problem with getting people to click the OK button which says "Dear User, we have detected that you may be breaking the law. Please can you send the information required to prosecute you to us by choosing the ok button below.", is that they are incriminating themselves. As the relatively recents human rights court cases here in the UK regarding the letters people get sent after being caught by speed cameras asking them to state it was them driving - and thereby incriminating themselves - shows, it is against their human rights (for some strange reason.).

                    D Offline
                    D Offline
                    David Wulff
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    >> is that they are incriminating themselves. I never intended the 'message box' solution as a serious suggestion, just trying to highlight how stupid 'some*' of the privacy rules are. Don't you just love the British (and possibly elsewhere) legal system! David Wulff * Note, don't get me wrong here, I fully support and respect peoples privacy (and mine), as I mentioned, this 'suggestion' was to try to deter the large-scale pirates, not the odd person here and there who lends the software to his mate.

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • D David Wulff

                      >> Any method that you can come up with will be hacked very fast. I know this, but it would still catch the pirates at your local market (who normally just burn another CD), and you could always make is more difficult to crack by using encryption/random compression/etc, and call the check with the server from random places within the code, so the hacker must remove twenty or more checks). Then by including file size checks, etc, you could make it into a week-long task for the hacker, so deter all but the very best. >> you can put in the license agreement that the program checks for updates and such on occasion I never thought of that. If there was a section in the agreement that read something like "If your unique serial number is suspected to have has been used to register pirate software, your registration may be sent to our servers to enable a new serial number to be assigned to you, and/or your license validated.", then if the user agrees to it, they couldn't say we were invading their privacy (as they gave permission). >> Microsoft turned off your entire system (or had the coppers at your door) because someone grabbed your Win98 cd key and installed at your local school But in this case YOU would be the registered license holder, you would be ignored. David Wulff

                      L Offline
                      L Offline
                      Lost User
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      Using a program such as Shrinker, UPX, etall, will not slow the hacker down by much. Writing your own won't either - the usual issues with the code running on the local machine. And how would you check and prove that someone is the LEGIT license holder? Transfer of ownership is a real issue and happens often enough (sell the system with the bundled software for example). Then there is the problem with people passing around the username and license key problem. You're going to lock out all of Joe User's access because his son gave out his key?

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • D David Wulff

                        Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

                        L Offline
                        L Offline
                        Lost User
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        There's a number of ways you can reliably prevent piracy: 1) Write code, and then give it away for free. 2) Write code, but don't give it to anyone. Of course, this method is fraught with danger because someone could come in and steal your hard drive or something. 3) Stop writing code. There is no reliable (as well as practical) method for preventing piracy of software.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • D David Wulff

                          Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

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                          C Offline
                          Christian Graus
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          The only convincing protection I ever saw was Bleem!, the Playstation emulator. The CD actually had rings on it, obviously where areas had not been burnt, or something. I'm not entirely sure how it worked, but the CD was not burnable in the usual sense, and wouldn't run unless the original CD was inserted first. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.

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                          • C Christian Graus

                            The only convincing protection I ever saw was Bleem!, the Playstation emulator. The CD actually had rings on it, obviously where areas had not been burnt, or something. I'm not entirely sure how it worked, but the CD was not burnable in the usual sense, and wouldn't run unless the original CD was inserted first. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.

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                            L Offline
                            Lost User
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            "convincing protection?" Check the crack boards.

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                            • D David Wulff

                              Firstly, I apologise for the length of this post. I recommend that you print it out and read it offline. I was just having a conversation discussing ways to prevent software piracy. I'm not talking about a user who takes a piece of software home with them and installs it twice, but rather the groups of organized hackers/crackers out there, that are responsible for the vast majority of software distributed illegally via the internet, and/or mass ‘burnt’ onto CD. These people are more of a threat than the end users of the pirate software, as without them there would be no source. I mean ways of identifying them, and the downloaders/purchasers so they can be prosecuted. You will never be able to stop a hacker/cracker from removing encryption and/or validation methods used within your program if they are determined enough, but you can make it so it isn’t worth their time. For example, if a hacker/cracker knew that they faced a good possibility of being charged, they would leave your software well alone. But then comes the problem, how can you find out how, and by whom your software is being illegally used? Can you make it so it detects it is being hacked and sends a ‘Help me, I’m being hacked’ message. Well probably not, but there are a few methods that were suggested, ranging from a ‘security-guard-in-the-box’ to ‘online verification’. Obviously the first suggestion can never be implemented as it would cost too much and be impractical. The other suggestion would seem a logical and cost effective method, but how could it be pulled off successfully, and without being classed as ‘an invasion of privacy’? By making it so your software product checks the registration information (i.e. serial number/license key, organization, etc) online, you run into three problems. Firstly the hacker/cracker could just patch the function used so it returns true without actually checking, and secondly you don’t want to investigate a possibly genuine user who has miss-entered information after formatting their machine, and thirdly, people may consider it an invasion of privacy. So, we came up with the solution of anonymously logging the serial number the software was registered with online (the first time the software is run on a single machine connected to the Internet), and if the same serial number pops-up more than say twenty times over it’s license value, it is added to a black list. (I understand that Microsoft attempted a simi

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                              Lost User
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              Your reference to India shows India in Bad light. India has one of toughest Copyright infringement laws. Section 63 B of Indian Copyright Act stipulates a minimum jail term of 7 days. The jail term could be extended up to three years. The Act further provides for fine ranging from Rs. 50,000 to 2,00,000, and jail term up to three years for such an infringement.

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                              • L Lost User

                                Your reference to India shows India in Bad light. India has one of toughest Copyright infringement laws. Section 63 B of Indian Copyright Act stipulates a minimum jail term of 7 days. The jail term could be extended up to three years. The Act further provides for fine ranging from Rs. 50,000 to 2,00,000, and jail term up to three years for such an infringement.

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                                David Wulff
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #15

                                I have no knowledege of piracy law in India. The reason I added it was because it mentioned that India has the highest piracy rate in the world (or one of the highest), in Edge magazine. If anybody can got holds of a copy of Edge (issue 91) I recommend that you read the section of software piracy, as it covers quite a lot and goes into great depth as to the reasons, cures, etc) David Wulff

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