Why

Sebastian Benitez

Ok, you win :) I can see your faith is great, so I won't say you are wrong even if you are (which I don't know). "semper aliquid haeret", Bacon. -- Sebastián.

J Dunlap

Sebastián Benítez wrote: A: yes sure, you think is coherent that someone tells you that he will resurrect? So we can say that there are a lot of insane people that are sane because they say they can resurrect. A contradiction. But He did! See Joel's post. Sebastián Benítez wrote: B: How do you know he didn't cheat or hate? The Pharisees and other enemies were constantly trying to catch Him on anything that they could. If He had lied, cheated, or stolen, it would have been sure to have been publicized widely. But, to the contrary, no evidence or even writing of this has been found - either in the Bible, or in other writings. Sebastián Benítez wrote: C: well, it's all about faith, i guess. It's faith, but not just faith - it's facts too. See this post: http://www.codeproject.com/script/comments/forums.asp?msg=699179&forumid=2605#xx699179xx

**"The real and lasting victories are those of peace, and not of war." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Jon Newman

:cool:

Jonathan 'nonny' Newman blog.nonny.com [^]

Joe Woodbury

Joel Holdsworth wrote: How about Jesus then? He could be one of three things: Your three choices are fallacious. It presupposes that the scriptures are entirely accurate and all encompassing, which they clearly are not. There are, in fact, plenty of alternate explanations. For example, Jesus' claims of divinity could have easily been attributed to him by later writers. Perhaps they believed he was the son of God or perhaps they simply made it up. It's even possible they made up the entire story of Jesus. Even more problematic is that your argument could also apply to Buddha, Mohammad and many others, including some modern claimants. Finally, the forced binarial choice that Christianity, or any religion for that matter, is either true or false is absurd. Even if Jesus wasn't the son of God, or didn't exist at all, doesn't negate the basic Christian ethic. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

Joe Woodbury

Joel Holdsworth wrote: Yes, but from my interpretation of the evidence I see before me What evidence? There simply isn't any. There are only claims in writings made long after the fact by believers. Truly contemporary writings, which recorded the existance of many Messiahs, didn't record anything about Jesus or his resurrection. To assert that the existance of Christianity proves that Jesus rose from the dead is nonsensical. By this reasoning--the number, and sincerity, of followers proves the truthfullness of a religion--Islam and Buddhism must also be true. As must many, if not most, other religions. Religion is a matter of faith. And that's not just me talking; Paul said the same thing. Even Jesus told Peter that Peter's faith came from the spirit, not from anything he [Peter] saw. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

PJ Arends

Joe Woodbury wrote: What evidence? There simply isn't any. There are only claims in writings made long after the fact by believers. Truly contemporary writings, which recorded the existance of many Messiahs, didn't record anything about Jesus or his resurrection. Links to articles about roman and jewish historians that lived at or about the same time as Jesus, who mention him in their writings. http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TC.html[^] http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_JOS.html[^] http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_ST.html[^]

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](http://www.canucks.com)Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!

Joe Woodbury

Putting aside the question of authenticity (it is very likely not), Tacitus was writing in the second century and was talking about the persecution of Christians by Nero. In this context he explains whohe is talking about by repeating the claims of Christians themselves. Josephus makes two veiled references to Jesus. One of these is certainly fraudulant. The reference that is plausible is a passing mention in the context of James's trial. Most interesting is that Josephus not only describes other "messiahs", but John the Baptist, yet does not discuss Jesus. The Suetonius reference to "Chrestus" has nothing to do with Jesus or even Christians for that matter. (The passage, describing events of about 50 CE, reads "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of one Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.") Historical documents actually put the new Testament account in bad light. For example, Herod's slaughter of the Innocents is not mentioned by a single contemporary, especially his enemies, who spared almost no words in described just how bad Herod was! Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke

PJ Arends

All your points are refuted in the links I supplied, I will not repeat them here. Any one interested can read it for themselves.

[

](http://www.canucks.com)Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!

Roger Wright

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: If so many people, with different beliefs, believe they're right, mustn't they all be wrong? Very poor logic. A better question would be, if so many people have so many beliefs, and only one of them is correct, what are the odds that the correct one is yours? Why assume only one is correct when so many have large subsets of tenets in common? Isn't it more likely that the common core of beliefs shared by a majority comprise the whole of the known truth, and the differences are mere window dressing? "Another day done - All targets met; all systems fully operational; all customers satisfied; all staff keen and well motivated; all pigs fed and ready to fly" - Jennie A.

pankajdaga

A relevant quote from one of the most dynamic scholars of the 20th century: Holiness, purity, and charity are not the exclusive possessions of any church or temple in the world and every system has produced men and women of the most exalted character. In the face of this evidence, if anybody dreams of the exclusive survival of his own religion and the destruction of the others, I pity him from the bottom of my heart and point out to him that upon the banner of every religion will soon be written, in spite of resistance: "Help and not Fight, "Assimilation and not Destruction," "Harmony and Peace and not Dissension" -- Vivekananda Without struggle, there is no progress

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Roger Wright wrote: Very poor logic. That is sort of the point I was trying to hilight. Roger Wright wrote: A better question would be, if so many people have so many beliefs, and only one of them is correct, what are the odds that the correct one is yours? Roger Wright wrote: and the differences are mere window dressing? Yes, precisely! I think organized religions have more to gain by studying and understanding the "others" than constantly thumping their chests and proclaiming "We walk the righteous path!". There's nothing to lose! What if the "test" is on what's not in the book? :) -- You see me driving down the street I look so f-ing good, yeah! We're smokin' weed and doing dirt in my Tommy Hilfiger hoodie, ha yeah, ha yeah, uh! We're gonna keep talking bullshit about you Cuz nobody be frontin' me and my crew! Cuz I'm a hip hopper, yes I am! Sarcasm...

Joel Holdsworth

Hi there, this is a very post-modern viewpoint, but unfortunatly I as a christian believe it is quite simply wrong. I'm sorry if that sounds arrogant, or narrow minded of me. You see if you start believing that all religions are the way to God, or several religions are the way to God then things stop making sense. If you look at the text of one religion and compare it to another - you'll find amazingly large sections of each that simply do not agree - they can somtimes be in direct contradiction - if I take both the Bible and the Q'uran for example to be true! For example the muslims believe that Jesus was merly a prophet of allah - not the son of God. But, in John 14:6 in the Bible, Jesus says "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Big problem here! You can't believe what the chrisitans say about Jesus being the one and only route to God, and simultaneosly believe what the Muslims say about Jesus being a prophet only - these two viepoints together are fundamental to the structure of each religion; but they disagree; it doesn't make sense! and therefor nor does the polytheist viewpoint. And this disparity is certainly much more fundamental than "Window dressing". There are plenty more examples of this kind of stuff which add weight to this argument. However, although I don't believe that the Muslims, Hindus, Budists etc have got it right; as a christian I believe that God loves each and every single person in the world equaly, and Jesus set an example of loving and respecting everyone he came into contact with. So as a christian I have an overflowing love for all these people of different beliefs, but I also believe that I have some incredibly good news that they ought to hear about and consider - because it can change their lives! Joel Holdsworth

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Vivekananda is a clever man in some peoples eyes. A heretic in others. -- You see me driving down the street I look so f-ing good, yeah! We're smokin' weed and doing dirt in my Tommy Hilfiger hoodie, ha yeah, ha yeah, uh! We're gonna keep talking bullshit about you Cuz nobody be frontin' me and my crew! Cuz I'm a hip hopper, yes I am! Sarcasm...

QuiJohn

Joel, I believe you're letting the details trip you up. The IMPORTANT stuff about religion is nearly universal. Take, for example, The Golden Rule. Frankly, the reason 99.9% of people are the religion that they are is because that's what their parents were. They were born into it. Unfortunately, many religions actively discourage challenging ideas; you are made to feel guilty, unholy, and somehow not worthy if you dare question anything. I've even known members of the Baha'i faith, a religion that encourages questioning their beliefs in the writings, be afraid to question too deeply, or go too much against the grain. It all comes back to the Golden Rule for me: be nice to one another, and things will work out. The rest are just details that millions of people have killed and been killed over. Seems kinda silly to me.

brianwelsch

Interesting question, Jörgen. A bit more so since you asked it on Christmas. People are "led" to accept a certain religion as truth by their parents initially. Most people simply continue to follow that relgion throughout their lives, because those beliefs are part of their upbringing, and also the customs, celebrations, are part of their culture. It's very difficult to leave these things behind without feeling some type of guilt or even emptyness. Alot of people examine their religion as they get older and become more curious about the mystery of life. Having found comfort in whichever belief they subscribe in the past, they expect to continue finding answers within their religion. Not forgetting our capability to rationalize nearly anything we encounter, it is easy to see why the many different religions continue, and each is taken to be "the truth" in its worshippers eyes. If you look at the various religions and compare, you will find amazing similarities in them. I've started getting into Joseph Campbell's, a comparative mythologist, work. The Power of Myth and the Masks of God[^] series are probably his most well known. Personally, I've come to a decision (for now) that I do not have the ability or time to know the truth, so I have two directions I can travel. I can "research" a few religions and pick the one I believe most, or am most comfortable with. Also, I can admit ignorance and see where life's experience lead, remembering to keep an open mind to the truth. It can always be quetioned, and I believe it will make itself known. I opted for the second one. In the end, I believe my purpose (until further notice) is simply to find happiness, and help others find it whenever I can, too.

"Things are not what they seem. Nor are they any different."

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nssone

No, now go back to Bible Study class and find out why.

Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school with plan to go on to Univeristy of Advancing Technology to study game design. Main career interest include: Multimedia and game programming. Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Actually, I am going to see if I cannot find the answer in WTL. ;P -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?

nssone

All that WTL will end up doing is making you question your beliefs then sell your soul to Satan for the ability to monopolize the PC OS market. Or it'll just make you want to code some more.

Who am I? Currently: A Programming Student trying to survive school with plan to go on to Univeristy of Advancing Technology to study game design. Main career interest include: Multimedia and game programming. Working on an outside project: A game for the GamePark32 (GP32) portable gaming console. My website: www.GP32US.com

Jorgen Sigvardsson

What good is a soul if you're not gonna use it? :rolleyes: -- Watcha' gonna do, when Hulkamania runs wild on you!?

pankajdaga

Who are we to say that the heretics have not found one way to the truth. Branding people a heretic or an intellectual adds nothing to it. We should take relevant things regardless of where or who they come from. Anyways, another relevant one. Truth is a pathless land - Krishnamurthy This is a debate that can never be proved by logic and intellect. People, at some point, will need to stop seeing God as a "being" or an "energy source" or something... It probably is none of these and all of these. The infinite cannot be understood in the sphere of the finite. I think God can never be understood... It can only be realized and only when we realize it and "become" God we can claim to have found it. Else, we are all finding our ways and we have not reached it (All of us, without exception). We can only understand the teachings of Jesus, Buddha or whatever by really achieving that spiritual state. Otherwise, we are all just speculating and fumbling around. Taking a little piece of truth, interpreting it according to our capabilities and living with it. This is a continuous process. Well, people will probably bash me for saying that we must "become" God. But I think that is everyone's final destiny, bar no one. We will all come to it eventually. Some faster, some later. But ultimately this is who we are. We are all divine and into divinity we will go. But anyways, I do not think we will achieve anything through discussion. Our experiences will one day lead us to the source. Pankaj Without struggle, there is no progress