Americas place in the world
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: I think we should stop providing aid to countries that don't appear to appreciate our efforts or that can't maintain some form of stable governing body that establishes an acceptable poilicy towards equality and general human rights LOL, that cuts out, well, pretty much everyone. Stable government, there goes Africa. Equality and human rights, there goes South America, China and Eastern Europe. But I agree. You shouldn't give aid money to a bunch of tin pot dictators, war mongers and ingrateful human rights abusers. Yet, the instant America does that just watch the uproar. Every aid reciever will carry on grovelling while showing America the finger. It is such a paradoxical state of position towards America that us needy buggers have. Maybe America needs to do it though. Maybe it needs to just stop and teach us all a very tough and very painful lesson. No offence to all us optimists but giving aid has done what? Argentina is just flushing itself further down the toilet and Africa just buys more weapons with it. China buys some pretty nuclear tipped rockets with its aid money. I mean, how is this aid actually turning countries around, helping the poor and down trodden? It doesn't, it isn't helping. I saw our president and his fifty advisors driving past me the other day in a 60 Mercedes cavalcade. They drove straight past the squatter camps on the way to the airport, to his new jet. So, purple headed warrior, how do you get your America to dish out some tough love? regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
I personally don't have a say in foriegn policy, so I don't know. So many hands are in so many pockets, I don't think anything can be done short of civil war. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Roger Wright wrote: and most aid recipients seem to have very short memories. And it absolutely infuriates me no end when my representatives, my government, throws it back in Americas face. I want to throttle our president when he does daft stuff like that. I want to seperate myself and other willing South Africans from those South Africans and Africans who have no respect, no understanding of their place in the world and just who is helping who. Roger Wright wrote: read by Richard Harris What a coincidence. I went and watched Enigma last night at the cinema which is based on Richard Harris's book by the same name. Bloody good film and I want to get hold of the original book (I normally do things the other way around, reading the book first and then going to the film and weeping as it trashes the book.) Roger Wright wrote: (that's right, the 10" PVC disk thingy with little grooves on it) We call those "frisbies" here... ;P Actually, my dad had a big collection of "records" so I still know what they are, even have a record player lying around here somewhere. Roger Wright wrote: I have the book - a second or third edition Odd but most retail book stores here do not stock it. I will have to do some digging to get it. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
Paul Watson wrote: What a coincidence. I went and watched Enigma last night at the cinema which is based on Richard Harris's book by the same name. Bloody good film and I want to get hold of the original book (I normally do things the other way around, reading the book first and then going to the film and weeping as it trashes the book.) I haven't seen the film but I have read the book. Is the film any better than the book ? ;P Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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I think we should stop providing aid to countries that don't appear to appreciate our efforts or that can't maintain some form of stable governing body that establishes an acceptable poilicy towards equality and general human rights. No single country in the world has the philanthropic attitude towards others like the American people. More money leaves this country through charities than anywhere else on earth, yet we do NOT ask for aid ourselves from beyond our own borders. Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. May I quote Roddy Doyle when I say, 'you couldn't wipe your arse' with the humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. I love americans and their dillusion that there are giving away their riches to undeserving and ungrateful world. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Most of us feel rather pissed at the world. We dump an awful lot of aid here and there, and for the most part, it buys us little. International friendship is a tenuous thing, and most aid recipients seem to have very short memories. Yet most Americans are generous, and gladly share our cash, goods, services, and technology with the rest of the world in the genuine hope that we can make life better for those less fortunate. It makes us feel somewhat bitter when those who have benefitted from our generosity turn on us whenever it's politically expedient, and that could one day lead to a return of isolationism. A time could come when we decide 'to hell with the rest of you!' - we'll keep our goodies to ourselves. That does not give us any right to interfere militarily in the affairs of others, except when their behavior puts us at risk. Yet governments will meddle - it's in their nature, and one of the best arguments for our form of government is that we, the citizens, have the ability to keep ours on a short leash. If we choose to exercise that authority... Sadly, we don't often enough, mostly because we are not informed of much of what our country is doing. Thanks for the link, by the way. I have the book - a second or third edition, I believe; my mom has the whole set. And I have a recording of 'The Prophet' on LP (that's right, the 10" PVC disk thingy with little grooves on it) read by Richard Harris. Quite a good listen....
Roger Wright wrote: We dump an awful lot of aid here and there, and for the most part, it buys us little. Perhaps, next time you'll think twice before dumping "lot of aid" to Bin Laden, as US did in 80's? IMHO the sad thing about other people's attitude towards US is not that they don't appreciate American aids (I don't believe in free lunch either), but that they ignore amount of industrial and techological achievements America gave to the World. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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Paul Watson wrote: What a coincidence. I went and watched Enigma last night at the cinema which is based on Richard Harris's book by the same name. Bloody good film and I want to get hold of the original book (I normally do things the other way around, reading the book first and then going to the film and weeping as it trashes the book.) I haven't seen the film but I have read the book. Is the film any better than the book ? ;P Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray Kinsella wrote: haven't seen the film but I have read the book. Is the film any better than the book ? Doh! So the book sucks? What a pity. I thought the book would be great as the film sometimes felt a bit like it was screaming for a way to convey everything the book conveyed. Well anyway, the film I really enjoyed. Good British, solid, well done film. Nothing stellar, but well worth watching. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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America is "damned if we do and damned if we don't". When we send troops into a country its either because our own national interests are being threatened or because the situation in the country has degenerated to the point where outside intervention is the only way to stop genocide. On one hand we have been critisized for interfering with other nations internal problems, while on the other hand we are accused of allowing genocide to happen in places like Bosina and Iraq. No matter what we do, someone isn't happy. Americans have become pretty pissed off. We have dumped billions and billions of dollars of aid money into the third world, and what do we have to show for it? Most of the food and drugs we send oversees don't even get to the needy. Instead they are stolen by the goverment, who then complains about US inaction. We send in troops to clean up the mess, and now we are accused of being a bully. There is a growing feeling that we should stay out of hopeless third world struggles unless national security is at stake. There are plenty of people here who would be happy if America closed its borders, pulled out of the UN, and let the rest of the world rot. Don't even get me started on the French and other european whiners...
Stuart van Weele wrote: There is a growing feeling that we should stay out of hopeless third world struggles unless national security is at stake. There are plenty of people here who would be happy if America closed its borders, pulled out of the UN, and let the rest of the world rot. But I tend to think that our national security is at stake. Just look at Sept. 11. If we let the rest of the third world rot, then that will foment anger and resentment even more, and the other governments will collectively come after us with their new nuclear rockets and other weapons that they bought with our former aid money. It's all a massive circle-jerk. Sincerely Yours, Brian Hart
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. May I quote Roddy Doyle when I say, 'you couldn't wipe your arse' with the humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. I love americans and their dillusion that there are giving away their riches to undeserving and ungrateful world. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
that must be some big ass, if it you can't wipe it with 9.5 billion dollars. the only country that gives more, in dollars, is Japan. and, admit it, even if we gave at the same percentage level as Japan, you wouldn't give a shit anyway. you'd just find some other reason to bitch about the US. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. May I quote Roddy Doyle when I say, 'you couldn't wipe your arse' with the humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. I love americans and their dillusion that there are giving away their riches to undeserving and ungrateful world. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray Kinsella wrote: humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. Hog wash!! Percentages mean absolutely nothing!! If I give you 7% of my net worth, you'd get about $30,000. If Bill Gates gives you 3% of his net worth it would be a cool $1,560,000,000. Which would you prefer? I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined.
Mike Mullikin "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. May I quote Roddy Doyle when I say, 'you couldn't wipe your arse' with the humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. I love americans and their dillusion that there are giving away their riches to undeserving and ungrateful world. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Ray Kinsella wrote: I love americans and their dillusion that there are giving away their riches to undeserving and ungrateful world. I understand the meaning of "A poor man who gives $10 is far better than a rich man who gives a $100" but in all fairness money is money and the US Dollar is a nice type of money indeed. Whether America gives 1% or 50% of their GDP away they are still giving vast sums of money out to people who are being very ungrateful and disrespectful. Are you saying that us ingrates are ungrateful of Americas aid because they could give so much more? God, I am glad they give us anything at all! They do not have to give us a penny, yet they gives us a good few billion pennies. Anyway, as I said somewhere else we don't need more aid, we need the aid to be directed to those who actually need it. And I wonder why we, Africa, are more respectful to the Europeans for their aid than the Americans for their aid? That is an interesting insight into the whole thing I think. p.s. Mr purple headed warrior is probably right now locking and loading and waiting for you to stick your head out again... :-D regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
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Roger Wright wrote: We dump an awful lot of aid here and there, and for the most part, it buys us little. Perhaps, next time you'll think twice before dumping "lot of aid" to Bin Laden, as US did in 80's? IMHO the sad thing about other people's attitude towards US is not that they don't appreciate American aids (I don't believe in free lunch either), but that they ignore amount of industrial and techological achievements America gave to the World. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
Vagif Abilov wrote: Perhaps, next time you'll think twice before dumping "lot of aid" to Bin Laden, as US did in 80's? wait, it's our fault that the ungrateful bastard turned on his benefactors? -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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First, here is The PROPHET, by Kahlil Gibran online. However fear not copyrighters and naysayers, I will buy the book as well. On to the topic then. With the steel war debate raging on below I began to think of the position America is in and the responsibilities of that position. Firstly, America is a success and I respect it for achieving what it has achieved. Culturally I do not credit America with much, but economically and structurally they are too be respected. America has helped my country a lot, and without having to ever send troops over even once. I also believe that is has helped a lot other countries in many ways. However none of us have much respect for what America has done and in fact we can be pretty pathetic in our attitude towards America. A case in point is the many African countries groveling and beging for money from America on one side while moaning and calling America names for interfering on the other side. That is a really sad state of affairs and all us developing nations need to shut up and give America what it is due. However, all that been said and done just how do Americans feel about their involvement with other countries? Do they through sending aid feel they have a right to step in with troops later on when/if things go bad? Do they feel that giving aid is all they should do and they should stop interfering/helping out other countries? Do Americans feel that if they stopped giving aid, stopped helping other countries that they should still retain some form of right to "interfere" in those other countries? I guess my real question is this: How do actual Americans feel about what they do for the rest of the world, and how do actual Americans feel about how the rest of the world treats them back? If I was an American, I think I would be pretty damned pissed off with virtually every other country. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
There was talk after Sep 11 about Americans re-evaluating their way of aiding nations, and in fact, the way they provide aid in general. America is hugely generous but I was reading about many organisations and individuals going through a period of introspection where they were realising that giving cash doesn't necessarily mean giving aid. From an organisations point of view handing over large amounts of cash or food to another country may not actually be what they need - instead they may just need help getting people educated, or engineers to help drill wells etc. From an individuals point of view donating cash to charity in order to make your society a better place isn't the same as volunteering, or simply making the effort to help out a random stranger, or taking the time to meet and understand your neighbours. A lot of this was prompted by the US starting to question the effects of it's involvment in the Middle East, which seemed a great step forward. I've not heard anything more about this so it would definitely be interesting to see the question from both sides: How does America feel about the rest of the world and how are America's understanding about the rest of the world changing? cheers, Chris Maunder
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Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Foriegners feed off of our generally good and trusting nature, and then kick sand in our faces when it's convenient. I say screw 'em. May I quote Roddy Doyle when I say, 'you couldn't wipe your arse' with the humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. I love americans and their dillusion that there are giving away their riches to undeserving and ungrateful world. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. Okay, so we've saved the world a couple of times, liberated Afghanistan (twice), out-lasted the communist threat in Europe, provided BILLIONS in un-repaid aid, and we're the fuckin bad guys? I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Ray Kinsella wrote: humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. Hog wash!! Percentages mean absolutely nothing!! If I give you 7% of my net worth, you'd get about $30,000. If Bill Gates gives you 3% of his net worth it would be a cool $1,560,000,000. Which would you prefer? I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined.
Mike Mullikin "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined. A ficitous report perhaps, now the following statistics come from 'Source: Adapted from Jeff Madrick, "Economic Scene," The New York Times, November 1, 2001, p. C2. Table based on World Bank data. I am sure will respect the source as an American newspaper.
TABLE A GDP Devoted to Development Aid, 1999 Country / Aid in Billions of Dollars / Aid as Proportion of GDP Netherlands / 3.1/ 0.0079 France / 5.6/ 0.0039 Japan / 15.3/ 0.0035 Germany / 5.5/ 0.0026 Great Britain / 3.4 / 0.0023 United States/ 9.1 /0.0010
As you can see, percentages or no percentages the four EU member states France, Germany, Britain and Netherlans, with a combined population of about 200 million (160 million less than the US) give 17.7 billion dollars as against the US's 9.1 billion . Add the rest of the EU member states ... how much aid do you end up with. You also have to remember that over 50% of US aid in military aid (to keep their own Arms industry ticking over) how much aid do you end up with ??????? http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23\_13\_097.html Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Ray Kinsella wrote: humanitarian aid donated by the U.S. to the world in general, it is usually about 3% of GDP in the US, in the EU it is just under 7%. Hog wash!! Percentages mean absolutely nothing!! If I give you 7% of my net worth, you'd get about $30,000. If Bill Gates gives you 3% of his net worth it would be a cool $1,560,000,000. Which would you prefer? I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined.
Mike Mullikin "Programming is like sex. One mistake and you have to support it for the rest of your life." - Michael Sinz
Mike Mullikin wrote: I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined. A ficitous report perhaps, now the following statistics come from 'Source: Adapted from Jeff Madrick, "Economic Scene," The New York Times, November 1, 2001, p. C2. Table based on World Bank data. I am sure will respect the source as an American newspaper.
TABLE A GDP Devoted to Development Aid, 1999 Country / Aid in Billions of Dollars / Aid as Proportion of GDP Netherlands / 3.1/ 0.0079 France / 5.6/ 0.0039 Japan / 15.3/ 0.0035 Germany / 5.5/ 0.0026 Great Britain / 3.4 / 0.0023 United States/ 9.1 /0.0010
As you can see, percentages or no percentages the four EU member states France, Germany, Britain and Netherlans, with a combined population of about 200 million (160 million less than the US) give 17.7 billion dollars as against the US's 9.1 billion . Add the rest of the EU member states ... how much aid do you end up with. You also have to remember that over 50% of US aid in military aid (to keep their own Arms industry ticking over) how much aid do you end up with ??????? http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23\_13\_097.html Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Vagif Abilov wrote: Perhaps, next time you'll think twice before dumping "lot of aid" to Bin Laden, as US did in 80's? wait, it's our fault that the ungrateful bastard turned on his benefactors? -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
It's certainly fault to support ungrateful bastards. Vagif Abilov COM+/ATL/MFC Developer Oslo, Norway
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I wish I could find the link (I'll keep looking) but I saw recently a report that stated that the US gave more (money, food, goods & services) away per year than the rest of the world combined. A ficitous report perhaps, now the following statistics come from 'Source: Adapted from Jeff Madrick, "Economic Scene," The New York Times, November 1, 2001, p. C2. Table based on World Bank data. I am sure will respect the source as an American newspaper.
TABLE A GDP Devoted to Development Aid, 1999 Country / Aid in Billions of Dollars / Aid as Proportion of GDP Netherlands / 3.1/ 0.0079 France / 5.6/ 0.0039 Japan / 15.3/ 0.0035 Germany / 5.5/ 0.0026 Great Britain / 3.4 / 0.0023 United States/ 9.1 /0.0010
As you can see, percentages or no percentages the four EU member states France, Germany, Britain and Netherlans, with a combined population of about 200 million (160 million less than the US) give 17.7 billion dollars as against the US's 9.1 billion . Add the rest of the EU member states ... how much aid do you end up with. You also have to remember that over 50% of US aid in military aid (to keep their own Arms industry ticking over) how much aid do you end up with ??????? http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/jul98/23\_13\_097.html Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
the US, and Japan combined gave almost twice as much as GB, Germany France and the Netherlands, combined. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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There was talk after Sep 11 about Americans re-evaluating their way of aiding nations, and in fact, the way they provide aid in general. America is hugely generous but I was reading about many organisations and individuals going through a period of introspection where they were realising that giving cash doesn't necessarily mean giving aid. From an organisations point of view handing over large amounts of cash or food to another country may not actually be what they need - instead they may just need help getting people educated, or engineers to help drill wells etc. From an individuals point of view donating cash to charity in order to make your society a better place isn't the same as volunteering, or simply making the effort to help out a random stranger, or taking the time to meet and understand your neighbours. A lot of this was prompted by the US starting to question the effects of it's involvment in the Middle East, which seemed a great step forward. I've not heard anything more about this so it would definitely be interesting to see the question from both sides: How does America feel about the rest of the world and how are America's understanding about the rest of the world changing? cheers, Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote: How does America feel about the rest of the world and how are America's understanding about the rest of the world changing? America wishes the rest of the world would go away and leave us alone. :) Maybe the average citizen would like a change in US policy, but the govt ain't gonna do it. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
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the US, and Japan combined gave almost twice as much as GB, Germany France and the Netherlands, combined. -c
Smaller Animals Software, Inc. You're the icing - on the cake - on the table - at my wake. Modest Mouse
Yes, Japan gave 15 billion we should aspire to be that generous, amost twice as much as the us but still less than the European contribution. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. Okay, so we've saved the world a couple of times, liberated Afghanistan (twice), out-lasted the communist threat in Europe, provided BILLIONS in un-repaid aid, and we're the fuckin bad guys? I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: Three percent of our GDP is much higher (in terms of dollar amount) than any other country's. And your precious EU is not a single country, but is rather a group of countries, so how is THAT an equal comparison? Can I dispel you illusions with statistics to be found at the following URL http://www.hbcollege.com/business\_stats/kohler/resources/stats/ch07\_1.html . Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: And what part of europe suddenly doesn't think we should have pulled their collective asses out from under Hitler's boot? If it wasn't for the U.S., the world would be eating sourkraut for dinner every night, and washing it down with a healthy helping of sake. It always comes back to the fucking second world war with you? It was lonnngggg time ago, get over it, the rest the bloody world has, its past tense, even Russia who is the final anaylsis probabily won the damn things all by herself, and suffered 30 million casualties got over it. So you want a cookie for winning the war, well at this stage you have had the whole box. Purple Warhead / outlaw programmer wrote: I don't know where you're from Ray, but I think you need to re-evaluate just how indebted the world is (as a whole) to the industrial, military, and philathropic strength. The world I deal in is more simple, you think the world is indepted to you, the world owes you something, well it doesn't, other nations have been doing far more, for far longer to fill empty bellies and never complained. Regards Ray "Je Suis Mort De Rire"
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First, here is The PROPHET, by Kahlil Gibran online. However fear not copyrighters and naysayers, I will buy the book as well. On to the topic then. With the steel war debate raging on below I began to think of the position America is in and the responsibilities of that position. Firstly, America is a success and I respect it for achieving what it has achieved. Culturally I do not credit America with much, but economically and structurally they are too be respected. America has helped my country a lot, and without having to ever send troops over even once. I also believe that is has helped a lot other countries in many ways. However none of us have much respect for what America has done and in fact we can be pretty pathetic in our attitude towards America. A case in point is the many African countries groveling and beging for money from America on one side while moaning and calling America names for interfering on the other side. That is a really sad state of affairs and all us developing nations need to shut up and give America what it is due. However, all that been said and done just how do Americans feel about their involvement with other countries? Do they through sending aid feel they have a right to step in with troops later on when/if things go bad? Do they feel that giving aid is all they should do and they should stop interfering/helping out other countries? Do Americans feel that if they stopped giving aid, stopped helping other countries that they should still retain some form of right to "interfere" in those other countries? I guess my real question is this: How do actual Americans feel about what they do for the rest of the world, and how do actual Americans feel about how the rest of the world treats them back? If I was an American, I think I would be pretty damned pissed off with virtually every other country. regards, Paul Watson Bluegrass Cape Town, South Africa "The greatest thing you will ever learn is to love, and be loved in return" - Moulin Rouge Sonork ID: 100.9903 Stormfront
If only such things could be easily evaluated as a boolean statement: this is good, this is bad. Unfortunately, the actions of any nation (including my own country, America) are based first on survival, and secondly on morality and culture. These actions and decisions are difficult and based on the horrendously complex and ever changing scenarios of world politics and interaction. The only reason that any country, mine or yours, is not overrun and conquered by aggressors is due to its inherent ability to defend itself through a combination of strength at arms, alliances and positioning. The latter two are complicated considerations indeed. Simply put, if the cost of conquest exceeds the potential benefits, predatory nations look elsewhere. That's how any nation maintains its freedom. Allies and world opinion are critical aspects of this deterence. The only reason that we were attacked September 11th by crashing passenger planes into buildings is because our attackers lacked the military strength to land on our shores, fight us (and our allies) and conquer our country, to then run as they think it should be run. If they had that power, America would no longer exist other than in memory. This is simply the nature of humanity, and it hasn't changed throughout all of human history. What does this have to do with America's policy of aid (and interference)? Everything, almost exclusively. America tries to be a good and honorable nation. But then, so does every other country, each within its own cultural context. However, morality does not act as the primary impulse for the actions of nations. Survival does. Aid brings allies. Meddling and positioning (for good or ill) is a preemptive aspect of self defense. It is no more possible to say that America is a good or bad country than it is to broadly characterize any group of people. People are individuals. Some will embrace noble ideas, and live by them. Others will talk the talk, but live only for their own selfish interests. We have both in America, just as there are both in every square mile of the world. Emotionally, I have little patience for those who take our help with one hand and flip us the finger with the other. Practically, however, I understand that life, and world politics, just ain't that simple. I take no joy in my government meddling in the affairs of others, but I prefer that to fighing someone else's tanks in rush hour traffic. Sound extreme? There are those who live in countries where that is a reality. I can assure you, if I looked out the wind
