Middle East
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You keep linking to junk that christians have put on the internet. Just because someone puts something on the internet and calls it christian doesnt necessarily mean that all christians agree with it. The rapture warning thing that you linked to above and the left behind series are both garbage, and do not represent all christians. Also, the bible does not directly say there is going to be a rapture, but it does say there is going to be a tribulation and second comming, and nothing man can do will speed it up or slow it down. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Just because someone puts something on the internet and calls it christian doesnt necessarily mean that all christians agree with it.
That's the point I hope you will take to heart and apply the same principle to other groups. For example, just because a small fraction of muslims want to "kill all the jews and christians" doesn't necessarily mean that all muslims agree with it.
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
And, the Koran and Hadith both command you to kill nonbelievers, whereas the New Testament does not.
In this thread, some posts above, Russell Moris and the trol Stan Shanon argued that "People are the origin of all violence" and "if one makes a careful, unbiased study of history most human conflict was not caused by religious differences but by purely secular,economic,territorial,racial reasons". Do you agree with them? It seems to me that you're suggesting that Islam incitates violence and you seem to present evidences of it. I don't know if you ignore all the violence commited in the name of Chritianism (incas, mayas, quechuas, astecs, africans, jews, muslins and other aboriginal people of asia and australia). How do you explain it? Is Muslin violence religious and Christian violence not religious? Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
Diego Moita wrote:
"People are the origin of all violence" and "if one makes a careful, unbiased study of history most human conflict was not caused by religious differences but by purely secular,economic,territorial,racial reasons". Do you agree with them?
Yes and no, there have been wars fought over those things, and wars fought over religion.
Diego Moita wrote:
I don't know if you ignore all the violence commited in the name of Chritianism (incas, mayas, quechuas, astecs, africans, jews, muslins and other aboriginal people of asia and australia).
While it is true that all of these things were done by power hungry people claiming to be Christians, there will always be human nature, and just because there are bad people in a certain religion, that doesnt make the reigion bad.
Diego Moita wrote:
Is Muslin violence religious and Christian violence not religious?
The difference between Muslim and Christian violence is that the founder of the Islam religion was a war lord who wrote that anyone that would not convert to his religion should be killed. The founder of Christianity (Jesus) tried to help people, and did not command them to kill others over religion. Regardless of the religion, there will always be people that will try to use that as an excuse for violence, like the Catholic Church did with Christianity, but when a religion such as Islam condones violence in it's Holy Books and was founded on violence, in my opinion, that makes the religion bad. Oh, and BTW, it is Christianity and not Christianism. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Well there is resentment from Africa that the west either does not contribute enough money or when it does it comes with strings attached. That is not my view at all, it is the typical "we demand!" African bullshit and I detest it. But that is what is on the street. There is little "Thank you U.S.A and Europe for your help." from what I have seen. Often due to the money not reaching the people on the ground. Usual corrupt donation crap. People are dying, children are starving, they turn to anger. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Colib and ilikecameras. K(arl) wrote: oh, and BTW, CHRISTIAN ISN'T A PARADOX, HE IS A TASMANIAN!
Paul Watson wrote:
it is the typical "we demand!" African bull****
Considering how Africa was colonialized and exploited by Europe over the past few hundred years, it is not surprising to me that Africans have demands. Considering how the U.S.A. used African countries as proxies in their battle against the Soviet Union, it is not surprising to me that Africans don't offer thanks.
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Just because someone puts something on the internet and calls it christian doesnt necessarily mean that all christians agree with it.
That's the point I hope you will take to heart and apply the same principle to other groups. For example, just because a small fraction of muslims want to "kill all the jews and christians" doesn't necessarily mean that all muslims agree with it.
But, all Muslims claim to follow either the Koran or Hadith, and both of those condone violence in the name of Islam as assurance of Paradise. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Diego Moita wrote:
"People are the origin of all violence" and "if one makes a careful, unbiased study of history most human conflict was not caused by religious differences but by purely secular,economic,territorial,racial reasons". Do you agree with them?
Yes and no, there have been wars fought over those things, and wars fought over religion.
Diego Moita wrote:
I don't know if you ignore all the violence commited in the name of Chritianism (incas, mayas, quechuas, astecs, africans, jews, muslins and other aboriginal people of asia and australia).
While it is true that all of these things were done by power hungry people claiming to be Christians, there will always be human nature, and just because there are bad people in a certain religion, that doesnt make the reigion bad.
Diego Moita wrote:
Is Muslin violence religious and Christian violence not religious?
The difference between Muslim and Christian violence is that the founder of the Islam religion was a war lord who wrote that anyone that would not convert to his religion should be killed. The founder of Christianity (Jesus) tried to help people, and did not command them to kill others over religion. Regardless of the religion, there will always be people that will try to use that as an excuse for violence, like the Catholic Church did with Christianity, but when a religion such as Islam condones violence in it's Holy Books and was founded on violence, in my opinion, that makes the religion bad. Oh, and BTW, it is Christianity and not Christianism. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
wrote that anyone that would not convert to his religion should be killed.
Source? Well actually I don't expect you to produce any because it doesn't exist. If you want to try the translation of the meaning of the Quran is available several places on the net.
Quran Lectures (updated 1/3/06) "They are MUSLIM. It does not matter how you split it up: all msulims (so they say) see every other muslim as a brother, regardless of origin or nationality." -legalAlien. Alhamdullah for the blessing of Islam
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Diego Moita wrote:
"People are the origin of all violence" and "if one makes a careful, unbiased study of history most human conflict was not caused by religious differences but by purely secular,economic,territorial,racial reasons". Do you agree with them?
Yes and no, there have been wars fought over those things, and wars fought over religion.
Diego Moita wrote:
I don't know if you ignore all the violence commited in the name of Chritianism (incas, mayas, quechuas, astecs, africans, jews, muslins and other aboriginal people of asia and australia).
While it is true that all of these things were done by power hungry people claiming to be Christians, there will always be human nature, and just because there are bad people in a certain religion, that doesnt make the reigion bad.
Diego Moita wrote:
Is Muslin violence religious and Christian violence not religious?
The difference between Muslim and Christian violence is that the founder of the Islam religion was a war lord who wrote that anyone that would not convert to his religion should be killed. The founder of Christianity (Jesus) tried to help people, and did not command them to kill others over religion. Regardless of the religion, there will always be people that will try to use that as an excuse for violence, like the Catholic Church did with Christianity, but when a religion such as Islam condones violence in it's Holy Books and was founded on violence, in my opinion, that makes the religion bad. Oh, and BTW, it is Christianity and not Christianism. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
just because there are bad people in a certain religion, that doesnt make the reigion bad.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
Regardless of the religion, there will always be people that will try to use that as an excuse for violence
This is the only thing we seem to agree.
Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
The difference between Muslim and Christian violence is that the founder of the Islam religion was a war lord who wrote that anyone that would not convert to his religion should be killed. The founder of Christianity (Jesus) tried to help people, and did not command them to kill others over religion. Regardless of the religion, there will always be people that will try to use that as an excuse for violence, like the Catholic Church did with Christianity, but when a religion such as Islam condones violence in it's Holy Books and was founded on violence, in my opinion, that makes the religion bad.
It all depends on who is the real founder of Christianity. You say it was Jesus. In my opinion he was just the founder of a small sect of Judaism. He didn't left anything written and I don't remember any specific message from him being explicit about conversion of non jews. Paul, the apostle, was the one who extended this sect into non jews and changed the sect into a new and more inclusive religion (actually some Christian leaders were against him, by then). Then there was what I think is the most important moment in the history of Christianism: the conversion of the Roman emperor Constantine I ("the Great") which endorsed Christianism as the state religion. I see that as the founding of Christianity (between 313 and 325). That's when several different evangelical books where considered non-Christians and expurgated, some where selected to be what we call Bible today and several different christian sects were exterminated. This was a violent process. Do some googling on "Edict of Milan" and "Council of Nicaea". Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoun
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
this could so easly escalate and get totally out of control
That's what some Christian fundamentalists are praying for. They think a crisis in the M.E. will lead to the return of Jesus.
:~ You're joking right? BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
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But, all Muslims claim to follow either the Koran or Hadith, and both of those condone violence in the name of Islam as assurance of Paradise. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
Christians claim to follow Christ. Doesn't mean they do.:doh: BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wright -
But, all Muslims claim to follow either the Koran or Hadith, and both of those condone violence in the name of Islam as assurance of Paradise. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
You radiate such authority when it comes to the Quran, and Islam in general. :)
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Christians claim to follow Christ. Doesn't mean they do.:doh: BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven WrightSo the peaceful muslims are not really following what their religion says? That is the point i was making. Their religion condones violence. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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So the peaceful muslims are not really following what their religion says? That is the point i was making. Their religion condones violence. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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I don't get why people are so upset about Hamas winning the election. The only difference between them and that other bunch of dumb asses is that they don't make a secret about being a bunch of terrorists. They are not trying to hide what they are. What I find ironic is that the lefties all seem to think that the solution to the problem of Islamic extremism is to free the world of Jews and Christians! So, we cannot possible look in that direction for any sane, intellectual help on the issue. As a US citizen, I think it is time to force the issue once and for all. It has been allowed to fester for far too long. Oil will continue to be a huge enabling resource for all of this chaos for a long time to come. There is nothing Bush or anyone else can do about that in the forseeable future. So, I suggest that the powers of the world should simply come together and take the oil away from the Muslims. Re-colonize the region and set up international control of their governments. We have to choose between living in a stable, modern world, and pandering to the whims of a civilization which is increasingly unstable and dangerous. The sooner we put an end to it the better. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
lefties all seem to think that the solution to the problem of Islamic extremism is to free the world of Jews and Christians!
I have never heard this.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I think it is time to force the issue once and for all
What does that mean? Invade all muslim countries?
Stan Shannon wrote:
take the oil away from the Muslims
How are you going to do that? All muslims everywhere? What about the American muslims? Will they have to sware on the bible before then can fill up their car?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Re-colonize the region
What does that mean? Fill it with westeners? Who would want to live in that heat? I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
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That's all we need the bible thumpers to get involved... Religion is the origion of violance. Group A hates Group B because they believe Jeasus was a transexual. Group B blows up Group A etc. etc. etc. etc. It's all so stupid I can't believe people just don't realize this and stop. Just believe in yourself, If you can't do that then you have REAL issues and need to work them out. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often). -- modified at 0:44 Saturday 28th January, 2006
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
Religion is the origion of violance.
Did you mean religion is the origin of violence ? I doubt that, although it is the origin of education, and therefore good spelling :-) Seriously, you're wrong. Religion is used as an excuse for violence, but it's hardly the origin. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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Your right, its not entirely bad. In fact there are a lot of good things in Religion. However, one belief system is no more valid then another. And when that belief system is used as a club to harm others its time to "kick it to the curb". It is obvious we do not agree on this issue, and thats fine by me. Each person needs to formulate there own answer the question of religion. My view is: It was good in the past It has been used to justify wars / conflicts It's importance needs to be deminished, people need to decide what makes sense to them and what they believe. Not follow some text some guy wrote thousands of years ago. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
However, one belief system is no more valid then another.
In what sense ? Do you mean everyone has the right to believe what they want, or that all belief systems are equally true ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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We actually probably agree on far more than we disagree on. Its just that the entire attitude towards Chrisitanity that seems to have taken root among certain elements of our culture really gets under my skin. I have lived around Chrisitans my entire life and have found them almost universally to be among the kindest, most gentle and loving people one could wish to be around. I have met very few that expressed any political beliefs of any kind, and of those as many were left leaning as right leaning. Are many of them concerned about the direction our culture is taking? Yes. Do many of them vote according to those religious sentiments? Yes, they do. But the notion that they should not is so virulantly un-democratic and grossly anti-American, that I am just staggered by the implications of it. I absolutely believe that the left and the democratic party have become so thoroughly controlled by a coalition of extremists groups that they are trying to fabricate a fictious 'radical religious right' in order to be able to offset their own radicalism in the public mind. If they can keep the center's attention directed toward Christian Fundamentalism, their own extremism can be more easily camouflaged. And, again, it continues to just blow me away that we could be confronted with a very real and dangerous example of religious extremism coming from some other culture, yet we still continue to entertain this silly politcal charade. I just find the entire situation to be nearly beyond belief. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
I'm trying to work out why anyone would down vote this. It sure got my 5. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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kinda like an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth eh? I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
That was in the Old Testament, which is not applicable today. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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That was in the Old Testament, which is not applicable today. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
Religion is the origion of violance.
Did you mean religion is the origin of violence ? I doubt that, although it is the origin of education, and therefore good spelling :-) Seriously, you're wrong. Religion is used as an excuse for violence, but it's hardly the origin. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Did you mean religion is the origin of violence ? I doubt that, although it is the origin of education, and therefore good spelling Seriously, you're wrong. Religion is used as an excuse for violence, but it's hardly the origin.
Religion is the origion of violance, or I should say, A big origion of violance but not the only one. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Why not? Is is part of the bible or not? I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
Why not? Is is part of the bible or not?
You obviously don't know much about the Bible. The Old Testament law became no longer applicable when Jesus came. "When only the police have guns, it's called a Police State."
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Christian Graus wrote:
Did you mean religion is the origin of violence ? I doubt that, although it is the origin of education, and therefore good spelling Seriously, you're wrong. Religion is used as an excuse for violence, but it's hardly the origin.
Religion is the origion of violance, or I should say, A big origion of violance but not the only one. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Please - why would you insist on spelling it wrong after I pointed out the correct spelling ? No, religion is never the origin of violence. In fact, Jesus told us to love our enemies. Religion is used by the powers that be to control the masses into acts of violence, that's another matter. In any case, there can be no doubt that violence existed before religion, and exists apart from religion. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++