Middle East
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Compared to what? And even if it is, how much of a threat does it really present, and how much is merely a figment of the left's own extermist imagination.
Compared to nothing. I think its a huge threat. Any type of fundamentalist has long ago given up on logic and reason and therefore is a threat. Faith and logic dont mix. Thats why I see people like Bush, Rice etc as a huge threat. They thing they are doing god's work and you cant reason with that kind of stupidity.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Or Asia a century before. You're correct that management would have to be done in a more enlightened way with the bulk of the oil profits being plowed back into the ecnomies of that region. Providing education, jobs, etc, to lure the population away from extremism and into an acceptance of a less violent alternative social order.
I think the best defence against fundamentalism is education. People with half a brain tend to questions things like blowing themselves up.
Stan Shannon wrote:
The idea would be to have areas governed by Muslims for Muslims desireing self rule without Islamic Fundamentalism. As these areas grew economically and socially, they could be combined into larger functional units until they could be trusted to return control of the entire region back over to leading to the ultimate termination of colonial rule.
Or they would attempt to rise up and take there country back like they are doing now in Iraq. You bunch them all together and your asking for trouble. I see a lot of people saying we have a problem and you are one of the few who are sugesting a solution but I think you are misguided. The Spanish seem to have solved there problems by getting the fuck out of Dodge. I am intersted to know what you think is the cause of the current terrorism issue? Why did 9/11 happen when it did and not 20 years ago? I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
Compared to nothing. I think its a huge threat. Any type of fundamentalist has long ago given up on logic and reason and therefore is a threat. Faith and logic dont mix. Thats why I see people like Bush, Rice etc as a huge threat. They thing they are doing god's work and you cant reason with that kind of stupidity.
For me, the irony is that I don't see them pushing their beliefs upon anyone. That seems to be coming entirely from your direction. What I hear you saying is that any set of philosophical principles that challange what you refer to as "logic and reason" (i.e. your agenda) is to be seen as a treat that needs to be dealt with. I think the view you express are those that a free society should be most concerned with.
Josh Gray wrote:
I think the best defence against fundamentalism is education.
And I agree. That is why education would be the first priority of the colonial government.
Josh Gray wrote:
You bunch them all together and your asking for trouble.
Which is my point. They would not be bunched together. The sanctuaries would start off small and separate with hand picked populations of individuals petitioning for admittance based on a stated desire to escape Islamic extremism. The very minute Islamic fundamentalism began reasserting itself, the sanctuary would be disbanded.
Josh Gray wrote:
The Spanish seem to have solved there problems by getting the f*** out of Dodge.
Good god thats a stupid statement.
Josh Gray wrote:
I am intersted to know what you think is the cause of the current terrorism issue? Why did 9/11 happen when it did and not 20 years ago?
The timeing of 9/11 is very interesting. Personally, I think the terrorists, in league with certain leftist elements in Europe, had the attack planned to coincide with the election of the first republican president to regain the presidency. The fact that Bush's 2000 election was marred by such a close vote was iceing on the cake. I also believe that the cause of the terrorism is complex and has many origens. Clearly the involvement of the US in that region during the Cold War, the establishment of Isreal, our support of various non-democratic governments etc have tended to anger the Muslim world, and r
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
how misguided are you anyway?
So lets hear your plan. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
I can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil. Geeshe.. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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I can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil. Geeshe.. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil.
But I'm not talking about stealing it. Merely controlling it in a way that would help to grow all the economies of that region. It would be imperative that the profits from the oil be used to build a functional economic order that would allow the Muslim world to be ultimately integrated into a modern human civilization. I'm not minimizing the difficulty in achieving that given the obvious graft and corruption that would inherently become associated with it. But I don't see why any of that would be necessarily worse than it is now. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Josh Gray wrote:
Compared to nothing. I think its a huge threat. Any type of fundamentalist has long ago given up on logic and reason and therefore is a threat. Faith and logic dont mix. Thats why I see people like Bush, Rice etc as a huge threat. They thing they are doing god's work and you cant reason with that kind of stupidity.
For me, the irony is that I don't see them pushing their beliefs upon anyone. That seems to be coming entirely from your direction. What I hear you saying is that any set of philosophical principles that challange what you refer to as "logic and reason" (i.e. your agenda) is to be seen as a treat that needs to be dealt with. I think the view you express are those that a free society should be most concerned with.
Josh Gray wrote:
I think the best defence against fundamentalism is education.
And I agree. That is why education would be the first priority of the colonial government.
Josh Gray wrote:
You bunch them all together and your asking for trouble.
Which is my point. They would not be bunched together. The sanctuaries would start off small and separate with hand picked populations of individuals petitioning for admittance based on a stated desire to escape Islamic extremism. The very minute Islamic fundamentalism began reasserting itself, the sanctuary would be disbanded.
Josh Gray wrote:
The Spanish seem to have solved there problems by getting the f*** out of Dodge.
Good god thats a stupid statement.
Josh Gray wrote:
I am intersted to know what you think is the cause of the current terrorism issue? Why did 9/11 happen when it did and not 20 years ago?
The timeing of 9/11 is very interesting. Personally, I think the terrorists, in league with certain leftist elements in Europe, had the attack planned to coincide with the election of the first republican president to regain the presidency. The fact that Bush's 2000 election was marred by such a close vote was iceing on the cake. I also believe that the cause of the terrorism is complex and has many origens. Clearly the involvement of the US in that region during the Cold War, the establishment of Isreal, our support of various non-democratic governments etc have tended to anger the Muslim world, and r
Stan Shannon wrote:
what you refer to as "logic and reason" (i.e. your agenda)
Yes logic and reason is my agenda. I would love to see it in foreign police either from your country ro mine. Its interesting that Blair is a raving born again lunatic as well. Doing anythihng in the name of god or the bible is void of logic and reason. Thats why its called faith. You just have to beleive.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good god thats a stupid statement.
Why? There have been no more bombs or threats. Sounds like a good situation to me. They get to drink sangria, have siesta's and get on with life.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I think the terrorists, in league with certain leftist elements in Europe
Good god you are a lunatic. Why do you hate the Euros so much?
Stan Shannon wrote:
I also believe that the cause of the terrorism is complex and has many origens. Clearly the involvement of the US in that region during the Cold War, the establishment of Isreal, our support of various non-democratic governments etc have tended to anger the Muslim world, and reasonably so (I'd be mad about it if I were them). In addition, I think the nature of Islam itself, as well as the history between the Christindom and Islam, tips the balance towards the use of violence and terrorism to achieve the goals of the various extremists groups. Lastly, the money flowing into that region ultimately fuels the entire mix. We are pouring billions of dollars into a civilizaton that never really escaped a pre-medieval, Iron age, tribalistic mindset, and we are seeing the results of doing so.
Yeah you fucked it up good. Couldnt agree more. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
can tell you, if I had a plan it wouldn't involve illegal and highly immoral activities like steeling all the oil.
But I'm not talking about stealing it. Merely controlling it in a way that would help to grow all the economies of that region. It would be imperative that the profits from the oil be used to build a functional economic order that would allow the Muslim world to be ultimately integrated into a modern human civilization. I'm not minimizing the difficulty in achieving that given the obvious graft and corruption that would inherently become associated with it. But I don't see why any of that would be necessarily worse than it is now. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
But I'm not talking about stealing it.
So I guess they will give it out for free?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Merely controlling it in a way that would help to grow all the economies of that region.
And whos in charge of that, you?
Stan Shannon wrote:
But I don't see why any of that would be necessarily worse than it is now.
Wow, No Comment... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
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Whatever you say. I can't change thousands of years of misguided teachings in 2 days. It boils down to this... No one group is better then any other because they believe the earth was flat. To go around trying to persuade people to your point of view is one thing, but if and when they don't follow your logic to excommunicate them, torture them or blow them up is ultimately self defeating and breeds ignorance, hatred and bigotry. All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance, and until they see this utterly obvious fact, we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes that brought us here in the first place. Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
excommunicate them, torture them or blow them up is ultimately self defeating and breeds ignorance, hatred and bigotry
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
All of these things any and every religion has done in extreme abundance
*Every* religion? :wtf: I'm agnostic, so let's put the background out of the picture. Can you back up your statement that *every* religion has tortured and murdered non-believers? Cheers, Vikram.
"When I read in books about a "base class", I figured this was the class that was at the bottom of the inheritence tree. It's the "base", right? Like the base of a pyramid." - Marc Clifton. i dont mind to be a stupid,better than being a moron - Adnan Siddiqi.
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Pumk1nh3ad wrote:
And, the Koran and Hadith both command you to kill nonbelievers, whereas the New Testament does not.
In this thread, some posts above, Russell Moris and the trol Stan Shanon argued that "People are the origin of all violence" and "if one makes a careful, unbiased study of history most human conflict was not caused by religious differences but by purely secular,economic,territorial,racial reasons". Do you agree with them? It seems to me that you're suggesting that Islam incitates violence and you seem to present evidences of it. I don't know if you ignore all the violence commited in the name of Chritianism (incas, mayas, quechuas, astecs, africans, jews, muslins and other aboriginal people of asia and australia). How do you explain it? Is Muslin violence religious and Christian violence not religious? Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
Diego Moita wrote:
I don't know if you ignore all the violence commited in the name of Chritianism [snip]
You left out India (to be pedantic, present-day India, Pakistan and Bangladesh) out of your excellent list. Or are we classified as the aborigines of Asia? :rolleyes: PS: I gave you a 5. Cheers, Vikram.
"When I read in books about a "base class", I figured this was the class that was at the bottom of the inheritence tree. It's the "base", right? Like the base of a pyramid." - Marc Clifton. i dont mind to be a stupid,better than being a moron - Adnan Siddiqi.
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Stan Shannon wrote:
But I'm not talking about stealing it.
So I guess they will give it out for free?
Stan Shannon wrote:
Merely controlling it in a way that would help to grow all the economies of that region.
And whos in charge of that, you?
Stan Shannon wrote:
But I don't see why any of that would be necessarily worse than it is now.
Wow, No Comment... Matthew Hazlett Sometimes I miss the simpler DOS days of Borland Turbo Pascal (but not very often).
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
So I guess they will give it out for free?
No. You'd have to conquer in some military way. But thats not stealing. If anything, we are stealing it now by merely paying small tribal factions who themselves are stealing it from their countrymen. By taking it out of the hands of those factions, you could ensure that the profits from its use would be used to build the local economies rather than the Swiss bank accounts of a few individuals.
Matthew Hazlett wrote:
And whos in charge of that, you?
Or someone egually trustworthy - George Bush perhaps. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Stan Shannon wrote:
what you refer to as "logic and reason" (i.e. your agenda)
Yes logic and reason is my agenda. I would love to see it in foreign police either from your country ro mine. Its interesting that Blair is a raving born again lunatic as well. Doing anythihng in the name of god or the bible is void of logic and reason. Thats why its called faith. You just have to beleive.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Good god thats a stupid statement.
Why? There have been no more bombs or threats. Sounds like a good situation to me. They get to drink sangria, have siesta's and get on with life.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I think the terrorists, in league with certain leftist elements in Europe
Good god you are a lunatic. Why do you hate the Euros so much?
Stan Shannon wrote:
I also believe that the cause of the terrorism is complex and has many origens. Clearly the involvement of the US in that region during the Cold War, the establishment of Isreal, our support of various non-democratic governments etc have tended to anger the Muslim world, and reasonably so (I'd be mad about it if I were them). In addition, I think the nature of Islam itself, as well as the history between the Christindom and Islam, tips the balance towards the use of violence and terrorism to achieve the goals of the various extremists groups. Lastly, the money flowing into that region ultimately fuels the entire mix. We are pouring billions of dollars into a civilizaton that never really escaped a pre-medieval, Iron age, tribalistic mindset, and we are seeing the results of doing so.
Yeah you fucked it up good. Couldnt agree more. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
Yes logic and reason is my agenda.
But everyone's agenda is logical and reasonable to them. Your asking us all to have faith in you.
Josh Gray wrote:
Why? There have been no more bombs or threats.
Because we could have all dealt with Adolph Hitler in precisely the same way. Evil will always allow to go peacefully about your life - as long as you are willing to do exactly as you are told.
Josh Gray wrote:
Why do you hate the Euros so much?
Because they are a collection of assholes like none the world has ever known before. How many people have died as a consequence of European secularism since the 18th century compared to the number that have died due to Christian Fundamentalism? They are dangerous morons who think they actually understand something about governing themselves and the world just because they have managed to go for a couple of generations without starting another world war. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Matthew Hazlett wrote:
I don't need to have personally expirenced or intensivly studied the last thousand years to realize the scope and influence religion has played in society
Precisely as I thought. Like most making those kinds of claims you have not the slightest clue of what you are talking about. Tell you what, what don't you go to google and find the last actual war that was fought for reasons directly related to religion? (Our current 'war on terror' excepted, of course). Has religion played an important role in human culture? Well, fuck yes it has. In fact, religion largly defines most of what human culture actually is. But, so what? Has that been entirely bad? Would we even be here if it had not been so? How do you eliminate such a pervasive and fundamental concept? ANd if so, what do you replace it with? What is the substitute? Government? Hollywood? Humanism? And if you do, how do you prevent those things from becoming religions in their own right. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself" -- modified at 19:18 Saturday 28th January, 2006
Stan Shannon wrote:
Hollywood?
I laugh and throw up at the same time over that comment.
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Ed Gadziemski wrote:
But there are more.
Than I would like to know where they are hiding. I have lived my entire life in the bible belt, travel widely through it today, go to church on a fairly regular basis, and I haven't seen the slightest hint of this looming spectre of hordes of Christian loonies destroying American civilzation. I think worrying about a few thousand Christian maniacs, at best, when the world is swarming with about a billion Muslim maniacs is simply silly. Christian fundamentalism is just about the most impotent, weak and well maintained threat of all those which currently face our civilization. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan, you don't remember the bombings at that Christian wedding that was carried out by loony Christians? Oh wait.... those were Muslims. What about the bombing in coffee shop on Thursday that those Cristians set up? Oh.... those were Muslims, too. Well, what about those Christians that abducted that American journalist? Oh... that's right. Muslims.
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Josh Gray wrote:
Yes logic and reason is my agenda.
But everyone's agenda is logical and reasonable to them. Your asking us all to have faith in you.
Josh Gray wrote:
Why? There have been no more bombs or threats.
Because we could have all dealt with Adolph Hitler in precisely the same way. Evil will always allow to go peacefully about your life - as long as you are willing to do exactly as you are told.
Josh Gray wrote:
Why do you hate the Euros so much?
Because they are a collection of assholes like none the world has ever known before. How many people have died as a consequence of European secularism since the 18th century compared to the number that have died due to Christian Fundamentalism? They are dangerous morons who think they actually understand something about governing themselves and the world just because they have managed to go for a couple of generations without starting another world war. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
Stan Shannon wrote:
Your asking us all to have faith in you.
No. I want to see logic not faith.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because we could have all dealt with Adolph Hitler in precisely the same way. Evil will always allow to go peacefully about your life - as long as you are willing to do exactly as you are told.
It is a very differnt situation. Your comparison shows your ignorance.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because they are a collection of assholes like none the world has ever known before. How many people have died as a consequence of European secularism since the 18th century compared to the number that have died due to Christian Fundamentalism? They are dangerous morons who think they actually understand something about governing themselves and the world just because they have managed to go for a couple of generations without starting another world war.
You think a death count will prove your point? How many have died through your medling in the world compaired to that of say the Swiss? You think everyone should just do what you guys say. You obviously know nothing about Europe or its people and culture. You have the typical pig ignorant american attitude of if you are not with us you are against us. Talk about a collection of moronic arse holes. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
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Diego Moita wrote:
I don't know if you ignore all the violence commited in the name of Chritianism [snip]
You left out India (to be pedantic, present-day India, Pakistan and Bangladesh) out of your excellent list. Or are we classified as the aborigines of Asia? :rolleyes: PS: I gave you a 5. Cheers, Vikram.
"When I read in books about a "base class", I figured this was the class that was at the bottom of the inheritence tree. It's the "base", right? Like the base of a pyramid." - Marc Clifton. i dont mind to be a stupid,better than being a moron - Adnan Siddiqi.
Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Or are we classified as the aborigines of Asia?
No, it was for stupid ignorance; I am sorry. I really need to read some history of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
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Stan Shannon wrote:
Your asking us all to have faith in you.
No. I want to see logic not faith.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because we could have all dealt with Adolph Hitler in precisely the same way. Evil will always allow to go peacefully about your life - as long as you are willing to do exactly as you are told.
It is a very differnt situation. Your comparison shows your ignorance.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Because they are a collection of assholes like none the world has ever known before. How many people have died as a consequence of European secularism since the 18th century compared to the number that have died due to Christian Fundamentalism? They are dangerous morons who think they actually understand something about governing themselves and the world just because they have managed to go for a couple of generations without starting another world war.
You think a death count will prove your point? How many have died through your medling in the world compaired to that of say the Swiss? You think everyone should just do what you guys say. You obviously know nothing about Europe or its people and culture. You have the typical pig ignorant american attitude of if you are not with us you are against us. Talk about a collection of moronic arse holes. I have taken a vow of poverty. If you want to really piss me off, send me money.
Josh Gray wrote:
No. I want to see logic not faith.
But only the logic which you are empowered to define and apply. God help those who might get in your way.
Josh Gray wrote:
It is a very differnt situation. Your comparison shows your ignorance.
I would be quite happy to compare my knowledge of history with yours. You don't strike me as someone who has bothered to actually study much. Keep appeaseing Islam, you'll find out soon enough how intellectually sound your arguments are.
Josh Gray wrote:
How many have died through your medling in the world compaired to that of say the Swiss?
A lot less than would have died had we not so brilliantly managed the Cold War - the most dangerous crisis in human history as we countered yet another European attempt to conquer the world.
Josh Gray wrote:
You obviously know nothing about Europe or its people and culture.
Whats to know? WWII, WWI, Hitler, Napoleon, Empires, conquest, subjegation or races, Royalty, Fascism, Communism, Secularism. Generally, a history of never being able to get it right. Fortunantly, the world won't have them around much longer to worry with as they seem determined to commit cultural/racial suicide. But, as Lee said as he watched Pickett's division melting away beneath the Union guns on cemetary ridge, "Oh, too bad. Too,too bad!" We can all only watch in horror as Europe charges forward towards its final, sad disaster. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Josh Gray wrote:
No. I want to see logic not faith.
But only the logic which you are empowered to define and apply. God help those who might get in your way.
Josh Gray wrote:
It is a very differnt situation. Your comparison shows your ignorance.
I would be quite happy to compare my knowledge of history with yours. You don't strike me as someone who has bothered to actually study much. Keep appeaseing Islam, you'll find out soon enough how intellectually sound your arguments are.
Josh Gray wrote:
How many have died through your medling in the world compaired to that of say the Swiss?
A lot less than would have died had we not so brilliantly managed the Cold War - the most dangerous crisis in human history as we countered yet another European attempt to conquer the world.
Josh Gray wrote:
You obviously know nothing about Europe or its people and culture.
Whats to know? WWII, WWI, Hitler, Napoleon, Empires, conquest, subjegation or races, Royalty, Fascism, Communism, Secularism. Generally, a history of never being able to get it right. Fortunantly, the world won't have them around much longer to worry with as they seem determined to commit cultural/racial suicide. But, as Lee said as he watched Pickett's division melting away beneath the Union guns on cemetary ridge, "Oh, too bad. Too,too bad!" We can all only watch in horror as Europe charges forward towards its final, sad disaster. "If anything, the West is awash in an epidemic of self-hate crimes." "a civilization that feels guilty for everything it is and does will lack the energy and conviction to defend itself"
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Vikram A Punathambekar wrote:
Or are we classified as the aborigines of Asia?
No, it was for stupid ignorance; I am sorry. I really need to read some history of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950) Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles. George Jean Nathan (1882 - 1958) Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
Don't berate yourself - you are more intelligent than a lot of people I see in the Soapbox. Cheers, Vikram.
"When I read in books about a "base class", I figured this was the class that was at the bottom of the inheritence tree. It's the "base", right? Like the base of a pyramid." - Marc Clifton. i dont mind to be a stupid,better than being a moron - Adnan Siddiqi.