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  3. Brief Report - "Plain English Compiler" First Impressions

Brief Report - "Plain English Compiler" First Impressions

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  • R Roger Wright

    Excellent review... Do you suppose that this might be an appropriate language for a beginning course on programming concepts? I teach at the local college, and sadly our Intro to Programming is badly lacking a decent language for beginners. "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9

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    Super Lloyd
    wrote on last edited by
    #18

    A bit like code frog: NO, not at all! For different reasons. What about teaching a language used in a real world? Of course I'm think C#, but there is also Java and VB noteworthy. All these 3 remove useless complexity while still providing full access to the concepts and programing power. I didn't mention C++ here because while it provide a bit more power, its complexity outweight its benefit, IMHO. (That is, unless you need its low-level easy and full access to the API).

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    • C code frog 0

      Jeremy Falcon wrote:

      You can't offer a different paradigm while taking things away from an enviroment we're used to, which is what this guy did.

      I think what you mean to say is that you cannot take stuff away just by saying, "It sucks". There's guys at MIT that are working on smaller paradigm shifts than this and have 1000's of pages of documentation to justify their assertions. I'm all for a paradigm shift taking us from A directly to Z and leaving no trace of A or anything in between so long as compelling arguments are given, a just amount of research has been done and credibility has been established. In his opening post he mentions 4 developers of significant stature that would be treated as kings if they even posted a picture of their unclothed butts here. Why? Because they have dedicated years and years of their lives to what they do. These guys have pumped out way more documentation than code. They've been on standards committees they've worked for leading companies. They've literally paved the roads of development, platforms and standards. Of course they would be treated differently they've earned it, proven they've earned it and do not in any way act like they deserve it (tongue in cheek on that last comment, most of them do it for the love of doing it). I welcome any well grounded, thoroughly researched and exhaustively documented paradigm shift. Documentation written by Adam Sandler just isn't going to wet my whistle... - Rex

      I only read CP for the articles. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.

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      Jeremy Falcon
      wrote on last edited by
      #19

      code-frog wrote:

      I think what you mean to say is that you cannot take stuff away just by saying, "It sucks".

      Well that and there has to be an alternative way to acheive simple mechanics to be able to perform relative tasks even in that new paradigm.

      code-frog wrote:

      Documentation written by Adam Sandler just isn't going to wet my whistle...

      :laugh: Jeremy Falcon

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      • R Roger Wright

        Excellent review... Do you suppose that this might be an appropriate language for a beginning course on programming concepts? I teach at the local college, and sadly our Intro to Programming is badly lacking a decent language for beginners. "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9

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        R Offline
        Ryan Binns
        wrote on last edited by
        #20

        Roger Wright wrote:

        Do you suppose that this might be an appropriate language for a beginning course on programming concepts?

        It would be like teaching someone to drive by giving them a Tonka truck...

        Ryan

        "Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"

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        • L Lost User

          In response to the ongoing debate regarding the appropriateness of the Plain English Compiler articles, I've requested and received a free copy of the compiler/IDE, available for purchase at the respective website for $100. As such, I'm going to report my first impressions (have to be brief, I actually have to study for my Friday exam at some point :P). The demo was sent immediately, and checked clean for malware/spyware (as some people were suspicious of). It included documentation and some sample programs, including the "plain english" source code for the compiler itself, which compiled and ran successfully. Unfortunately, I question the value of this product for professional programmers. Everything about it indicates this is a "proof-of-concept" project, and not a polished final product. The documentation and the IDE are simply not up to professional standards, and the language structure is questionable. The language syntax certainly appears to be English, loosely wrapped around Win32. The documentation uses cutsey, unintimidating language geared to a beginner, and frankly, the IDE reflects certain assumptions about the incompetence of the user: there is no stand-alone command-line compiler option as far as I could tell, and (among other things) the IDE runs full-screen and AFAIK, cannot be windowed, which makes multitasking a chore and just pisses me right off. The font they use looks like Comic Sans MS. Unintimidating, sure. Annoying, definitely. More importantly, several notable features draw the strength of the language into question: From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS Now, some of this isn't necessarily a direct weakness of the language, particularly if we're trying to facilitate a paradigm shift. They claim that "Objects suck - we have limited record support, but the page editor should do just fine." Okay: but no equations? No real numbers? You CANNOT market a professional programming product without floating point support. They even go so far as to vaguely imply that people should stop being "math-heads." I'm not kidding. - No case sensitivity Aside: I generally find this more frustrating than helpful. - "I don't care where you put your definitions" This may seem like a feature, but IMO, it's a weakness, because in large, complex programs, you're going to be hunting down your definitions when you g

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          Jorgen Sigvardsson
          wrote on last edited by
          #21

          I had this idea way back in university. I scrapped the idea, because it's just making programming more verbose. Who the hell wants to write a frigging 500 page novel, just to perform some simple tasks? And moreover, who'd want to read that 500 page (utterly boring) novel? The day when I will embrace natural programming languages is the day when I can tell the compiler to "Do my work, or fuck off!" :rolleyes:

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          • J Jorgen Sigvardsson

            I had this idea way back in university. I scrapped the idea, because it's just making programming more verbose. Who the hell wants to write a frigging 500 page novel, just to perform some simple tasks? And moreover, who'd want to read that 500 page (utterly boring) novel? The day when I will embrace natural programming languages is the day when I can tell the compiler to "Do my work, or fuck off!" :rolleyes:

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            Jeremy Falcon
            wrote on last edited by
            #22

            Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:

            "Do my work, or f*** off!"

            By that time the computer will being telling us that. :-D:rolleyes: Jeremy Falcon

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • J Jorgen Sigvardsson

              I had this idea way back in university. I scrapped the idea, because it's just making programming more verbose. Who the hell wants to write a frigging 500 page novel, just to perform some simple tasks? And moreover, who'd want to read that 500 page (utterly boring) novel? The day when I will embrace natural programming languages is the day when I can tell the compiler to "Do my work, or fuck off!" :rolleyes:

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              R Offline
              Ryan Binns
              wrote on last edited by
              #23

              Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:

              The day when I will embrace natural programming languages is the day when I can tell the compiler to "Do my work, or f*** off!"

              I'd be too worried about which choice it would make... :~

              Ryan

              "Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • L Lost User

                In response to the ongoing debate regarding the appropriateness of the Plain English Compiler articles, I've requested and received a free copy of the compiler/IDE, available for purchase at the respective website for $100. As such, I'm going to report my first impressions (have to be brief, I actually have to study for my Friday exam at some point :P). The demo was sent immediately, and checked clean for malware/spyware (as some people were suspicious of). It included documentation and some sample programs, including the "plain english" source code for the compiler itself, which compiled and ran successfully. Unfortunately, I question the value of this product for professional programmers. Everything about it indicates this is a "proof-of-concept" project, and not a polished final product. The documentation and the IDE are simply not up to professional standards, and the language structure is questionable. The language syntax certainly appears to be English, loosely wrapped around Win32. The documentation uses cutsey, unintimidating language geared to a beginner, and frankly, the IDE reflects certain assumptions about the incompetence of the user: there is no stand-alone command-line compiler option as far as I could tell, and (among other things) the IDE runs full-screen and AFAIK, cannot be windowed, which makes multitasking a chore and just pisses me right off. The font they use looks like Comic Sans MS. Unintimidating, sure. Annoying, definitely. More importantly, several notable features draw the strength of the language into question: From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS Now, some of this isn't necessarily a direct weakness of the language, particularly if we're trying to facilitate a paradigm shift. They claim that "Objects suck - we have limited record support, but the page editor should do just fine." Okay: but no equations? No real numbers? You CANNOT market a professional programming product without floating point support. They even go so far as to vaguely imply that people should stop being "math-heads." I'm not kidding. - No case sensitivity Aside: I generally find this more frustrating than helpful. - "I don't care where you put your definitions" This may seem like a feature, but IMO, it's a weakness, because in large, complex programs, you're going to be hunting down your definitions when you g

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                L Offline
                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #24

                VB I miss you! The tigress is here :-D

                E 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • L Lost User

                  In response to the ongoing debate regarding the appropriateness of the Plain English Compiler articles, I've requested and received a free copy of the compiler/IDE, available for purchase at the respective website for $100. As such, I'm going to report my first impressions (have to be brief, I actually have to study for my Friday exam at some point :P). The demo was sent immediately, and checked clean for malware/spyware (as some people were suspicious of). It included documentation and some sample programs, including the "plain english" source code for the compiler itself, which compiled and ran successfully. Unfortunately, I question the value of this product for professional programmers. Everything about it indicates this is a "proof-of-concept" project, and not a polished final product. The documentation and the IDE are simply not up to professional standards, and the language structure is questionable. The language syntax certainly appears to be English, loosely wrapped around Win32. The documentation uses cutsey, unintimidating language geared to a beginner, and frankly, the IDE reflects certain assumptions about the incompetence of the user: there is no stand-alone command-line compiler option as far as I could tell, and (among other things) the IDE runs full-screen and AFAIK, cannot be windowed, which makes multitasking a chore and just pisses me right off. The font they use looks like Comic Sans MS. Unintimidating, sure. Annoying, definitely. More importantly, several notable features draw the strength of the language into question: From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS Now, some of this isn't necessarily a direct weakness of the language, particularly if we're trying to facilitate a paradigm shift. They claim that "Objects suck - we have limited record support, but the page editor should do just fine." Okay: but no equations? No real numbers? You CANNOT market a professional programming product without floating point support. They even go so far as to vaguely imply that people should stop being "math-heads." I'm not kidding. - No case sensitivity Aside: I generally find this more frustrating than helpful. - "I don't care where you put your definitions" This may seem like a feature, but IMO, it's a weakness, because in large, complex programs, you're going to be hunting down your definitions when you g

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                  R Offline
                  Rocky Moore
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #25

                  Great post! Means I do not have to look at the product ;) Back in the day, I always wanted programming to move to point-and-click drag-and-drop style on a graphic screen and drop all the text. Oh well, one of these days ;) Rocky <>< Latest Post: SQL2005 Server Managemnet Studio timeouts! Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • L Lost User

                    In response to the ongoing debate regarding the appropriateness of the Plain English Compiler articles, I've requested and received a free copy of the compiler/IDE, available for purchase at the respective website for $100. As such, I'm going to report my first impressions (have to be brief, I actually have to study for my Friday exam at some point :P). The demo was sent immediately, and checked clean for malware/spyware (as some people were suspicious of). It included documentation and some sample programs, including the "plain english" source code for the compiler itself, which compiled and ran successfully. Unfortunately, I question the value of this product for professional programmers. Everything about it indicates this is a "proof-of-concept" project, and not a polished final product. The documentation and the IDE are simply not up to professional standards, and the language structure is questionable. The language syntax certainly appears to be English, loosely wrapped around Win32. The documentation uses cutsey, unintimidating language geared to a beginner, and frankly, the IDE reflects certain assumptions about the incompetence of the user: there is no stand-alone command-line compiler option as far as I could tell, and (among other things) the IDE runs full-screen and AFAIK, cannot be windowed, which makes multitasking a chore and just pisses me right off. The font they use looks like Comic Sans MS. Unintimidating, sure. Annoying, definitely. More importantly, several notable features draw the strength of the language into question: From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS Now, some of this isn't necessarily a direct weakness of the language, particularly if we're trying to facilitate a paradigm shift. They claim that "Objects suck - we have limited record support, but the page editor should do just fine." Okay: but no equations? No real numbers? You CANNOT market a professional programming product without floating point support. They even go so far as to vaguely imply that people should stop being "math-heads." I'm not kidding. - No case sensitivity Aside: I generally find this more frustrating than helpful. - "I don't care where you put your definitions" This may seem like a feature, but IMO, it's a weakness, because in large, complex programs, you're going to be hunting down your definitions when you g

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                    L Offline
                    Lost User
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #26

                    Fisticuffs wrote:

                    From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS

                    Quack quack THUD! (It's a dead duck then) The tigress is here :-D

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • L Lost User

                      In response to the ongoing debate regarding the appropriateness of the Plain English Compiler articles, I've requested and received a free copy of the compiler/IDE, available for purchase at the respective website for $100. As such, I'm going to report my first impressions (have to be brief, I actually have to study for my Friday exam at some point :P). The demo was sent immediately, and checked clean for malware/spyware (as some people were suspicious of). It included documentation and some sample programs, including the "plain english" source code for the compiler itself, which compiled and ran successfully. Unfortunately, I question the value of this product for professional programmers. Everything about it indicates this is a "proof-of-concept" project, and not a polished final product. The documentation and the IDE are simply not up to professional standards, and the language structure is questionable. The language syntax certainly appears to be English, loosely wrapped around Win32. The documentation uses cutsey, unintimidating language geared to a beginner, and frankly, the IDE reflects certain assumptions about the incompetence of the user: there is no stand-alone command-line compiler option as far as I could tell, and (among other things) the IDE runs full-screen and AFAIK, cannot be windowed, which makes multitasking a chore and just pisses me right off. The font they use looks like Comic Sans MS. Unintimidating, sure. Annoying, definitely. More importantly, several notable features draw the strength of the language into question: From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS Now, some of this isn't necessarily a direct weakness of the language, particularly if we're trying to facilitate a paradigm shift. They claim that "Objects suck - we have limited record support, but the page editor should do just fine." Okay: but no equations? No real numbers? You CANNOT market a professional programming product without floating point support. They even go so far as to vaguely imply that people should stop being "math-heads." I'm not kidding. - No case sensitivity Aside: I generally find this more frustrating than helpful. - "I don't care where you put your definitions" This may seem like a feature, but IMO, it's a weakness, because in large, complex programs, you're going to be hunting down your definitions when you g

                      realJSOPR Offline
                      realJSOPR Offline
                      realJSOP
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #27

                      That compiler sounds like something to help turn non-programmers into programmers. Maybe we should send it to India... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

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                      • realJSOPR realJSOP

                        That compiler sounds like something to help turn non-programmers into programmers. Maybe we should send it to India... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

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                        Nish Nishant
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #28

                        John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:

                        That compiler sounds like something to help turn non-programmers into programmers. Maybe we should send it to India...

                        Wouldn't that need it to support Hindi then? :rolleyes: Regards, Nish


                        Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
                        The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!

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                        • L Lost User

                          VB I miss you! The tigress is here :-D

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                          E Offline
                          Eytukan
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #29

                          oh.. i thought vb6.5 is just released!


                          VuNic

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                          0
                          • L Lost User

                            In response to the ongoing debate regarding the appropriateness of the Plain English Compiler articles, I've requested and received a free copy of the compiler/IDE, available for purchase at the respective website for $100. As such, I'm going to report my first impressions (have to be brief, I actually have to study for my Friday exam at some point :P). The demo was sent immediately, and checked clean for malware/spyware (as some people were suspicious of). It included documentation and some sample programs, including the "plain english" source code for the compiler itself, which compiled and ran successfully. Unfortunately, I question the value of this product for professional programmers. Everything about it indicates this is a "proof-of-concept" project, and not a polished final product. The documentation and the IDE are simply not up to professional standards, and the language structure is questionable. The language syntax certainly appears to be English, loosely wrapped around Win32. The documentation uses cutsey, unintimidating language geared to a beginner, and frankly, the IDE reflects certain assumptions about the incompetence of the user: there is no stand-alone command-line compiler option as far as I could tell, and (among other things) the IDE runs full-screen and AFAIK, cannot be windowed, which makes multitasking a chore and just pisses me right off. The font they use looks like Comic Sans MS. Unintimidating, sure. Annoying, definitely. More importantly, several notable features draw the strength of the language into question: From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS Now, some of this isn't necessarily a direct weakness of the language, particularly if we're trying to facilitate a paradigm shift. They claim that "Objects suck - we have limited record support, but the page editor should do just fine." Okay: but no equations? No real numbers? You CANNOT market a professional programming product without floating point support. They even go so far as to vaguely imply that people should stop being "math-heads." I'm not kidding. - No case sensitivity Aside: I generally find this more frustrating than helpful. - "I don't care where you put your definitions" This may seem like a feature, but IMO, it's a weakness, because in large, complex programs, you're going to be hunting down your definitions when you g

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                            J Offline
                            Jerry Hammond
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #30

                            Nicely done. My Programming Library C#, C# Run

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                            0
                            • realJSOPR realJSOP

                              That compiler sounds like something to help turn non-programmers into programmers. Maybe we should send it to India... ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001

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                              L Offline
                              Luis Alonso Ramos
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #31

                              John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:

                              That compiler sounds like something to help turn non-programmers into programmers.

                              Microsoft already invented that before.... it's called Visual Basic! :-D -- LuisR


                              Luis Alonso Ramos Intelectix - Chihuahua, Mexico Not much here: My CP Blog!

                              The amount of sleep the average person needs is five more minutes. -- Vikram A Punathambekar, Aug. 11, 2005

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                              • M Marc Clifton

                                It's an interesting idea. I just played around with it too (so, hmm, the lounge post actually seemed to work). Floating point support is done by rational numbers, BTW. What I'm intrigued by is, for example, I have some really complex code that handles auto-generating SQL. It's complex enough that every single line of code has a comment describing what it does. There's a sort of redundancy there, and in fact, I often wish that I could code simply by writing the comments! This is sort of like that, I think. And oddly, it's reminiscent of something I tried a long time ago on a Commodore PET/64, when I was doing pretty much assembly language programming, and thinking, why can't I just express my thoughts in plain English? So yeah, variable definition, declaration, and assignment is ridiculously verbose. But the real power of something like this comes to play when expressing higher level concepts, that are built on lower level concepts. Whether this program actually succeeds at that, or is simply a glorified macro compiler, I don't know yet. [edit]And yes, the articles as they stand are inappropriate. But inappropriate to the point of deleting them? I'm not convinced of that, because I could argue the case that whatever the paradigm shift is, it IS interesting and has some worth.[/edit] Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures -- modified at 0:53 Tuesday 7th March, 2006

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                                D Offline
                                Dave Kreskowiak
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #32

                                Marc Clifton wrote:

                                And yes, the articles as they stand are inappropriate. But inappropriate to the point of deleting them? I'm not convinced of that, because I could argue the case that whatever the paradigm shift is, it IS interesting and has some worth

                                I hedge at paying $100 bucks to do something useful with the articles, so I'd vote to delete them. If he was giving this thing away for free as a tool to demonstrate his proof-of-concept article, I'd agree with keeping the stuff. RageInTheMachine9532 "...a pungent, ghastly, stinky piece of cheese!" -- The Roaming Gnome

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • L Lost User

                                  In response to the ongoing debate regarding the appropriateness of the Plain English Compiler articles, I've requested and received a free copy of the compiler/IDE, available for purchase at the respective website for $100. As such, I'm going to report my first impressions (have to be brief, I actually have to study for my Friday exam at some point :P). The demo was sent immediately, and checked clean for malware/spyware (as some people were suspicious of). It included documentation and some sample programs, including the "plain english" source code for the compiler itself, which compiled and ran successfully. Unfortunately, I question the value of this product for professional programmers. Everything about it indicates this is a "proof-of-concept" project, and not a polished final product. The documentation and the IDE are simply not up to professional standards, and the language structure is questionable. The language syntax certainly appears to be English, loosely wrapped around Win32. The documentation uses cutsey, unintimidating language geared to a beginner, and frankly, the IDE reflects certain assumptions about the incompetence of the user: there is no stand-alone command-line compiler option as far as I could tell, and (among other things) the IDE runs full-screen and AFAIK, cannot be windowed, which makes multitasking a chore and just pisses me right off. The font they use looks like Comic Sans MS. Unintimidating, sure. Annoying, definitely. More importantly, several notable features draw the strength of the language into question: From the documentation: - I don't do nested IFs - I don't do nested LOOPs - I don't do OBJECTS - I don't do REAL NUMBERS - I don't do EQUATIONS Now, some of this isn't necessarily a direct weakness of the language, particularly if we're trying to facilitate a paradigm shift. They claim that "Objects suck - we have limited record support, but the page editor should do just fine." Okay: but no equations? No real numbers? You CANNOT market a professional programming product without floating point support. They even go so far as to vaguely imply that people should stop being "math-heads." I'm not kidding. - No case sensitivity Aside: I generally find this more frustrating than helpful. - "I don't care where you put your definitions" This may seem like a feature, but IMO, it's a weakness, because in large, complex programs, you're going to be hunting down your definitions when you g

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                                  X Offline
                                  Xoy
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #33

                                  My impressions: There is compact, in a good, to the point way (Cish - mostly to the point anyway... some redundancy) There is verbose, in a good, more readable way (VB) And there is excessive verbosity... and i'd say plain english falls in this category ;P VB is almost english... think of things in a wee bit different order, get a bit more to the point, etc... seems that plain english just uses more syntax to do less :sigh: Still requires formatting things in a specific way, right? Even if it is somewhat flexible ... If it could take the specifications & make code out of it though... now that would be more impressive ;P

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