Devastating.....:(
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Civilian sources (a playwright and two photographers I know) say things are not good at all. I'm hoping you're right, and thing haven't deteriorated. Just wish we had either not done it at all, or had the commitment from the top to do it right up front.
Living conditions are bad for a lot of Iraqis. But that was the way of life before, with no hope of change. Now, there is at least hope, and in some cases change for the better. One thing I am confident of is that for those who are experiencing changes for the worse, it is not because of what Americans did, but because of what insurgents did to make the US look bad. We can be proud of the way our military behaves (although anomalies exist, we punish those people and it is not the way we operate). As for the politicians, that does need looking into in some cases.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
That is because you misinterpret what you hear him say. It is his religion that provides him the personal strength to do what he already understands needs to be done.
I bet that's exactly how Osama is reasoning. It is not impossible to go against Osama without invoking some higher power. In fact, I can tell you right now that Osama needs to be hunted down and killed like a dog. You heard that from a border line atheist (agnostic, really, but that has little relevance here and now), and I can promise you that had I been the president of the united states of america, I would've done just that. I would have killed all his offspring too, just to be sure. All without a single invocation of God. All without using the medieval rhetoric.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
I'm relatively sure you won't understand.
Do I need to accept Christ first in order to understand?
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
Do I need to accept Christ first in order to understand?
you don't need to do anything, you made my point far better than I could have. Thanks! Mike "We ain't stuck on stupid." badass Lt. General Russel Honore **"Remember - live bunnies are a great source of nourishment"**silly-assed cartoon A vegan is someone who never heard a carrot cry!
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I agree with you. I am not a fan of putting American lives at risk for these other nations that do not stand up for themselves. I think Iraqi's should be doing so much more now to protect their own country. I would never have been in favor of going to war to rid Iraq of Saddam's regime. BUT I was in support of ridding Iraq's WMD stockpile. I was pretty upset when we declared that we did not find any and do not expect to find any. At that point, however, we had a responsibility to rebuild Iraq so that it could defend itself. And that is the mess we are stuck in now. I had no intention of voting for Bush until Kerry kept displaying that he had no position on the war. I think that would have been worse because he would have gone with the popular decision and pulled troops out such that things would be in chaos now (compared to what is is today). I just hope we can get a new president that has a plan to continue to fix the mess over there, but who can also bring international support to the table. I am geting tired of the US bashing in this forum.
Bob Flynn wrote:
I had no intention of voting for Bush until Kerry kept displaying that he had no position on the war.
Nor did he have any plans for the future. All he did was attack Bush, and that doesn't make a good leader IMO. Jeremy Falcon
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Yeah, and I guess now he never will.
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So you find an acceptable middle ground, and adjust your tactics accordingly. Zeros were relatively unarmored and very agile, which hurt us until we adjusted our tactics. Never get into a turning battle with a Zero, right? Hit and run. Sacrificing protection for agility turned out to be a rather bad decision for them.
Obviously. On the other hand, German tanks were much more heavily armored (and armed) than our tanks were, and could easily destroy our tanks. But, by means of manuever, we could keep their forces penned down and destroy their tanks with air power and artillery. So it works both ways. Our current military is probably not optimally designed for a low level insurgency of this type. But, if we overcompensate for this tactical situation, we will be less able to deal with a more active battlefield situation. I actually think the military commanders know what they are doing. The current 'lack' of armor is not the result of either wanton neglect, incompetence, or disregard for the safety of our forces. It is a calculated military decision best left to the generals. "You get that which you tolerate"
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Bob Flynn wrote:
I had no intention of voting for Bush until Kerry kept displaying that he had no position on the war.
Nor did he have any plans for the future. All he did was attack Bush, and that doesn't make a good leader IMO. Jeremy Falcon
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I don't think the US is the only good place in the world. I do think, however, the US is one of the few countries that has the balls to stand up for what's right. Of course, that doesn't mean we are incapable of wrong, but when in doubt of its actions, etc. one has to lean towards tendencies of past actions until proven otherwise. And no, I don't expect many people to listen to that. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I do think, however, the US is one of the few countries that has the balls to stand up for what's right
I believe many people think they do precisely that, be they from the US, China, Iran, India, European countries...and that the problem: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Pull the tapeworm out of your ass Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Bravo. I am so proud of America, I wish I was american. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
Michel Prévost wrote:
I wish I was american.
no. we don't want you. you are negative. you would bring negative, evil energy here. stay away! LOL!
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Michel Prévost wrote:
I wish I was american.
no. we don't want you. you are negative. you would bring negative, evil energy here. stay away! LOL!
You probably are not familiar with sarcasm. You would not recognize it if it bit you in the ass. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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espeir wrote:
Where are America's ignoble deeds?
Giving the American smack-down to a country with no WMDs and no ties to terrorism against the USA, that wasn't a threat to anyone in the area, and that also wasn't a breeding ground for the kind of terrorists that actually do have a grudge against us. Also, there's the whole no-bid contract thing (not that past administrations haven't been ignoble as well), and the lack of commitment to rebuilding (both in Afghanistan and Iraq). I know you think things are better over there now, but that's not what our troops or their citizens are saying.
espeir wrote:
What do we get out of it? Regional stability.
Regional stability! That's rich. Let's see...fat contracts for a bunch of administration cronies, a puppet government in the region giving us just enough control to keep influence over the oil nations, but retaining enough chaos to provide another unsecured Islamic breeding ground for the kind of ideology that will keep our "war on terror" alive indefinitely (more tax dollars to the Department of Fatherland Security, less money for FEMA -- that works out well, doesn't it?). Oh, and the American people also get a massive national debt, a growing deficit, a falling dollar (propped up by our creditors at the moment because they're screwed if the bottom falls out), and migration of jobs offshore (of course, if the dollar falls far enough, we'll be cheap labor and the jobs will come back). And all for such a noble cause. I don't dispute that many people support the war for noble reasons. I'm just saying that that's not actually why we're there. We're there for the same reason any war is fought -- money, power, control. I agree that the USA is the best country in the world, but don't for a minute doubt the subjectivity of that belief. Many people can and do make the same claim about their homelands.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
not what our troops or their citizens are saying
that is pure bullshit, you effing liar! I have several close friends who have been to Iraq and back and they have pictures and video to prove that we're doing a lot of good over there and that things ARE better dispite your lying bullshit!
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I do think, however, the US is one of the few countries that has the balls to stand up for what's right
I believe many people think they do precisely that, be they from the US, China, Iran, India, European countries...and that the problem: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Pull the tapeworm out of your ass Fold with us! ¤ flickr
K(arl) wrote:
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Bruce Dickinson, Accident of Birth (1997), track 6. :)
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Obviously. On the other hand, German tanks were much more heavily armored (and armed) than our tanks were, and could easily destroy our tanks. But, by means of manuever, we could keep their forces penned down and destroy their tanks with air power and artillery. So it works both ways. Our current military is probably not optimally designed for a low level insurgency of this type. But, if we overcompensate for this tactical situation, we will be less able to deal with a more active battlefield situation. I actually think the military commanders know what they are doing. The current 'lack' of armor is not the result of either wanton neglect, incompetence, or disregard for the safety of our forces. It is a calculated military decision best left to the generals. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
Obviously. On the other hand, German tanks were much more heavily armored (and armed) than our tanks were, and could easily destroy our tanks. But, by means of manuever, we could keep their forces penned down and destroy their tanks with air power and artillery. So it works both ways.
Obviously. I'm just citing a case where lack of armor put a combatant at a distinct disadvantage, especially when faced with superior tactics. Agility in the face of armor does not automatically result in superiority in combat.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Our current military is probably not optimally designed for a low level insurgency of this type. But, if we overcompensate for this tactical situation, we will be less able to deal with a more active battlefield situation.
But if we don't compensate at all, we will also be less able.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I actually think the military commanders know what they are doing. The current 'lack' of armor is not the result of either wanton neglect, incompetence, or disregard for the safety of our forces. It is a calculated military decision best left to the generals.
Ah, the "we meant to do that" reason. Sort of like the General Oliver Smith quote, "Retreat, hell! We're just advancing in another direction." If we keep our vehicles lightly armored, they can outrun the IED blasts? Needless to say, I disagree.
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I agree with you. I am not a fan of putting American lives at risk for these other nations that do not stand up for themselves. I think Iraqi's should be doing so much more now to protect their own country. I would never have been in favor of going to war to rid Iraq of Saddam's regime. BUT I was in support of ridding Iraq's WMD stockpile. I was pretty upset when we declared that we did not find any and do not expect to find any. At that point, however, we had a responsibility to rebuild Iraq so that it could defend itself. And that is the mess we are stuck in now. I had no intention of voting for Bush until Kerry kept displaying that he had no position on the war. I think that would have been worse because he would have gone with the popular decision and pulled troops out such that things would be in chaos now (compared to what is is today). I just hope we can get a new president that has a plan to continue to fix the mess over there, but who can also bring international support to the table. I am geting tired of the US bashing in this forum.
Elections are tough when your choice is either the lesser of two evils, or the evil of two lessers. :( It would be great to get things under control over there, win back the hearts and minds of the international community, and put a little focus back on our own country. Yeah, there's an awful lot of US bashing around here. International community bashing, too. We actually could use their support. Hell, we need them to like us enough to buy our stuff, too.
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You probably are not familiar with sarcasm. You would not recognize it if it bit you in the ass. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
I'm imagining that statement with a French accent, and it's that much funnier. :laugh:
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I'm imagining that statement with a French accent, and it's that much funnier. :laugh:
I work with American in the USA 80% of my work time in a year, and very few detect that I am french ;P -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
not what our troops or their citizens are saying
that is pure bullshit, you effing liar! I have several close friends who have been to Iraq and back and they have pictures and video to prove that we're doing a lot of good over there and that things ARE better dispite your lying bullshit!
Stated with all the eloquence I've come to expect from you. But you're absolutely right. I must be lying, because two different people in a 437,072 sq km area could not possibly have two different experiences. Pound sand, jackass.
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I work with American in the USA 80% of my work time in a year, and very few detect that I am french ;P -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
Michel Prévost wrote:
I am french
an even better reason we don't want your ilk here. go away coward!
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Stated with all the eloquence I've come to expect from you. But you're absolutely right. I must be lying, because two different people in a 437,072 sq km area could not possibly have two different experiences. Pound sand, jackass.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Pound sand
bring your head over here and I will! dickweed!
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Michel Prévost wrote:
I am french
an even better reason we don't want your ilk here. go away coward!
Coward? Completely gratuitous affirmation of yours, done without any proof. That reminds me of something..... -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson -- modified at 17:58 Tuesday 7th March, 2006
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I work with American in the USA 80% of my work time in a year, and very few detect that I am french ;P -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
That's okay. I still hear it that way in my head. :)