Devastating.....:(
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I don't think the US is the only good place in the world. I do think, however, the US is one of the few countries that has the balls to stand up for what's right. Of course, that doesn't mean we are incapable of wrong, but when in doubt of its actions, etc. one has to lean towards tendencies of past actions until proven otherwise. And no, I don't expect many people to listen to that. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I do think, however, the US is one of the few countries that has the balls to stand up for what's right
I believe many people think they do precisely that, be they from the US, China, Iran, India, European countries...and that the problem: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Pull the tapeworm out of your ass Fold with us! ¤ flickr
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Bravo. I am so proud of America, I wish I was american. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
Michel Prévost wrote:
I wish I was american.
no. we don't want you. you are negative. you would bring negative, evil energy here. stay away! LOL!
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Michel Prévost wrote:
I wish I was american.
no. we don't want you. you are negative. you would bring negative, evil energy here. stay away! LOL!
You probably are not familiar with sarcasm. You would not recognize it if it bit you in the ass. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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espeir wrote:
Where are America's ignoble deeds?
Giving the American smack-down to a country with no WMDs and no ties to terrorism against the USA, that wasn't a threat to anyone in the area, and that also wasn't a breeding ground for the kind of terrorists that actually do have a grudge against us. Also, there's the whole no-bid contract thing (not that past administrations haven't been ignoble as well), and the lack of commitment to rebuilding (both in Afghanistan and Iraq). I know you think things are better over there now, but that's not what our troops or their citizens are saying.
espeir wrote:
What do we get out of it? Regional stability.
Regional stability! That's rich. Let's see...fat contracts for a bunch of administration cronies, a puppet government in the region giving us just enough control to keep influence over the oil nations, but retaining enough chaos to provide another unsecured Islamic breeding ground for the kind of ideology that will keep our "war on terror" alive indefinitely (more tax dollars to the Department of Fatherland Security, less money for FEMA -- that works out well, doesn't it?). Oh, and the American people also get a massive national debt, a growing deficit, a falling dollar (propped up by our creditors at the moment because they're screwed if the bottom falls out), and migration of jobs offshore (of course, if the dollar falls far enough, we'll be cheap labor and the jobs will come back). And all for such a noble cause. I don't dispute that many people support the war for noble reasons. I'm just saying that that's not actually why we're there. We're there for the same reason any war is fought -- money, power, control. I agree that the USA is the best country in the world, but don't for a minute doubt the subjectivity of that belief. Many people can and do make the same claim about their homelands.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
not what our troops or their citizens are saying
that is pure bullshit, you effing liar! I have several close friends who have been to Iraq and back and they have pictures and video to prove that we're doing a lot of good over there and that things ARE better dispite your lying bullshit!
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I do think, however, the US is one of the few countries that has the balls to stand up for what's right
I believe many people think they do precisely that, be they from the US, China, Iran, India, European countries...and that the problem: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Pull the tapeworm out of your ass Fold with us! ¤ flickr
K(arl) wrote:
the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Bruce Dickinson, Accident of Birth (1997), track 6. :)
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Obviously. On the other hand, German tanks were much more heavily armored (and armed) than our tanks were, and could easily destroy our tanks. But, by means of manuever, we could keep their forces penned down and destroy their tanks with air power and artillery. So it works both ways. Our current military is probably not optimally designed for a low level insurgency of this type. But, if we overcompensate for this tactical situation, we will be less able to deal with a more active battlefield situation. I actually think the military commanders know what they are doing. The current 'lack' of armor is not the result of either wanton neglect, incompetence, or disregard for the safety of our forces. It is a calculated military decision best left to the generals. "You get that which you tolerate"
Stan Shannon wrote:
Obviously. On the other hand, German tanks were much more heavily armored (and armed) than our tanks were, and could easily destroy our tanks. But, by means of manuever, we could keep their forces penned down and destroy their tanks with air power and artillery. So it works both ways.
Obviously. I'm just citing a case where lack of armor put a combatant at a distinct disadvantage, especially when faced with superior tactics. Agility in the face of armor does not automatically result in superiority in combat.
Stan Shannon wrote:
Our current military is probably not optimally designed for a low level insurgency of this type. But, if we overcompensate for this tactical situation, we will be less able to deal with a more active battlefield situation.
But if we don't compensate at all, we will also be less able.
Stan Shannon wrote:
I actually think the military commanders know what they are doing. The current 'lack' of armor is not the result of either wanton neglect, incompetence, or disregard for the safety of our forces. It is a calculated military decision best left to the generals.
Ah, the "we meant to do that" reason. Sort of like the General Oliver Smith quote, "Retreat, hell! We're just advancing in another direction." If we keep our vehicles lightly armored, they can outrun the IED blasts? Needless to say, I disagree.
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I agree with you. I am not a fan of putting American lives at risk for these other nations that do not stand up for themselves. I think Iraqi's should be doing so much more now to protect their own country. I would never have been in favor of going to war to rid Iraq of Saddam's regime. BUT I was in support of ridding Iraq's WMD stockpile. I was pretty upset when we declared that we did not find any and do not expect to find any. At that point, however, we had a responsibility to rebuild Iraq so that it could defend itself. And that is the mess we are stuck in now. I had no intention of voting for Bush until Kerry kept displaying that he had no position on the war. I think that would have been worse because he would have gone with the popular decision and pulled troops out such that things would be in chaos now (compared to what is is today). I just hope we can get a new president that has a plan to continue to fix the mess over there, but who can also bring international support to the table. I am geting tired of the US bashing in this forum.
Elections are tough when your choice is either the lesser of two evils, or the evil of two lessers. :( It would be great to get things under control over there, win back the hearts and minds of the international community, and put a little focus back on our own country. Yeah, there's an awful lot of US bashing around here. International community bashing, too. We actually could use their support. Hell, we need them to like us enough to buy our stuff, too.
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You probably are not familiar with sarcasm. You would not recognize it if it bit you in the ass. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
I'm imagining that statement with a French accent, and it's that much funnier. :laugh:
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I'm imagining that statement with a French accent, and it's that much funnier. :laugh:
I work with American in the USA 80% of my work time in a year, and very few detect that I am french ;P -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
not what our troops or their citizens are saying
that is pure bullshit, you effing liar! I have several close friends who have been to Iraq and back and they have pictures and video to prove that we're doing a lot of good over there and that things ARE better dispite your lying bullshit!
Stated with all the eloquence I've come to expect from you. But you're absolutely right. I must be lying, because two different people in a 437,072 sq km area could not possibly have two different experiences. Pound sand, jackass.
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I work with American in the USA 80% of my work time in a year, and very few detect that I am french ;P -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
Michel Prévost wrote:
I am french
an even better reason we don't want your ilk here. go away coward!
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Stated with all the eloquence I've come to expect from you. But you're absolutely right. I must be lying, because two different people in a 437,072 sq km area could not possibly have two different experiences. Pound sand, jackass.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Pound sand
bring your head over here and I will! dickweed!
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Michel Prévost wrote:
I am french
an even better reason we don't want your ilk here. go away coward!
Coward? Completely gratuitous affirmation of yours, done without any proof. That reminds me of something..... -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson -- modified at 17:58 Tuesday 7th March, 2006
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I work with American in the USA 80% of my work time in a year, and very few detect that I am french ;P -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
That's okay. I still hear it that way in my head. :)
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Michel Prévost wrote:
I am french
an even better reason we don't want your ilk here. go away coward!
But if French Fries are Freedom Fries, then French must be equivalent to freedom. So tell me, ahz, why do you hate freedom?
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Pound sand
bring your head over here and I will! dickweed!
Yeah. Does your Mom know you're using her computer to argue with grown-ups and make idle internet threats? :rolleyes:
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That was sarcasm, because I am glad I am not. When I travel the world, I am not ashamed of showing my Canadian passport, which is much more welcomed than the American one. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
I caught the sarcasm, but I was sincere. Although I am sure that you are probably a nice enough person, I find your judgemental attitude annoying. The US isn't perfect anymore than you are, but on the whole the world is better off because of our existence. As for being an American I am proud to be from a country that sets a standard in something more than mediocrity. Not to paint this with to wide of a brush, but the thing I find annoying about people like yourself is their lack of perspective. While the US aiding Sadaam Hussein in the 80's may seem despicable now, at the time with the threat of fundementalist Islam in Iran, having him as a counterbalance made strategic sense. The US made a lot of deals with people to try to counter threats from the Soviets, and while that may seem foolish now, at the time it made good sense. I rode around in a ballistic submarine in the 80's as a counter to the possibility of war with them. That being said, yes it would be nice of everyone in the world could just live and let live. Sadly human nature isn't that way, Sadaam and the mullahs in Afghanistan weren't that way. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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I caught the sarcasm, but I was sincere. Although I am sure that you are probably a nice enough person, I find your judgemental attitude annoying. The US isn't perfect anymore than you are, but on the whole the world is better off because of our existence. As for being an American I am proud to be from a country that sets a standard in something more than mediocrity. Not to paint this with to wide of a brush, but the thing I find annoying about people like yourself is their lack of perspective. While the US aiding Sadaam Hussein in the 80's may seem despicable now, at the time with the threat of fundementalist Islam in Iran, having him as a counterbalance made strategic sense. The US made a lot of deals with people to try to counter threats from the Soviets, and while that may seem foolish now, at the time it made good sense. I rode around in a ballistic submarine in the 80's as a counter to the possibility of war with them. That being said, yes it would be nice of everyone in the world could just live and let live. Sadly human nature isn't that way, Sadaam and the mullahs in Afghanistan weren't that way. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote:
Although I am sure that you are probably a nice enough person
Thank you I have to add something. When the US does something for the world to be better, it is in the sole purpose for US to be better, and maybe by rebound other places become better. A good example of this, is when the US put SH in power in Iraq. The first the guy did was to try to eradicate an ethnic community off the planet, but it was in the interest of the US because he was also fighting Iran. Also, when it helped Pinochet with his revolution, because of the fear of the current pro-communist leader of the time, which led to the bloodiest dictatorship that ever happen in Chili. I recognize that those may have been mistakes, that the US did not foresee that those 2 were to be what they have been, but they did not lift the little finger to help the poor poeple suffering under their leadership. Those may not be real facts, but I am hearing and reading stories about that since years. The US is very powerful country, and it should not use this power to bully around. The US is a nice country, with nice people, and I have many american friends. I know because I spend most of my time there, even though I am not american. But, frankly, the current administration is one of lies and deception. You may not like what I have to say, but Freedom of Speech is there for me to speak up about my concerns and fears of having a so much powerful neighbor that do not hesitate to use its power to reach its goals, whatever they are. -------- "I say no to drugs, but they don't listen." - Marilyn Manson
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Michel Prévost wrote:
In fact, what Iran do is what US probably do with other countries: weapon trading.
Only they're providing for terrorists who are killing countless civilians.
The USA is the largest arms exporter in the world. If you think American weapons don't end up in the hands of terrorists you are truly out of touch. Steve
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Obviously. On the other hand, German tanks were much more heavily armored (and armed) than our tanks were, and could easily destroy our tanks. But, by means of manuever, we could keep their forces penned down and destroy their tanks with air power and artillery. So it works both ways. Our current military is probably not optimally designed for a low level insurgency of this type. But, if we overcompensate for this tactical situation, we will be less able to deal with a more active battlefield situation. I actually think the military commanders know what they are doing. The current 'lack' of armor is not the result of either wanton neglect, incompetence, or disregard for the safety of our forces. It is a calculated military decision best left to the generals. "You get that which you tolerate"
Yeah, the conventional military is not suitable for dealing the insurgents. for example, terrorists have got themseleves mixed with the people. though we know this, we cannot use our tanks or a bomb to kill a terrorist in the crowd. but the terrorist can very well target troops from the crowd. The intelligence network should be extremely strong. but its really mind boggling how they manage to keep these damn terrorists checked.(and we see so much misses happen too). what a difficult task, :OMG:. how courageous the maraines are to step into the hostile territory. you cannot guess the bullets, these suckers are hidden everywhere. I guess, after the Iraqi army got collapsed by the USAF, or atleast after the capturing of Sadam, the US should have considered a pull back. or they should have prepared well for *this* type war. this is typically a Hit-n-Run or Hit-n-Hide kind of war. In india they face a similar kind of threat from Pak. sponserd militants. now they have a training center for countering the Hit-n-Run militants. Countires should cooperate a LOT to find a common solution for insurgency. first the US and Russia should leave the Cold war memories. Joining hands with the EU and India, they could do somethings aginst these maniacs. Bush has been asking for support and many considered ignoring it. Its not something like Bush and Iraq. its Humanity vs Terrorism. but Bush should have waited and come to a conclusion on measures againt terrorism with other countries. He made the sequence wrong. first join hands with other countires and then go to war against terror. but he first started the war then asking for support. anyway, now talks about pullback are appearing , (even in UK)but this should be made ASAP . so that maraines lives can be saved. Bush really lacks planning :sigh:. even in a strategic game like Age of Empires, if we make a war without planning, the opponent would make us run naked.. Bush must have thought about this. :( too late.
VuNic