The couple at the door
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
conclusion is falsifiable
What does it mean to have a "falsifiable" conclusion, theory, etc? I don't understand.
A theory is just a model that fits the current body of empirical data. If new data comes along that contradicts the model, then the model is discarded, and a new one is constructed that better fits the new data. Any scientific theory is subject to being refuted by new evidence. A theory is not considered scientific unless it (among other criteria) could be shown to be false by new evidence. Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified. It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
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A theory is just a model that fits the current body of empirical data. If new data comes along that contradicts the model, then the model is discarded, and a new one is constructed that better fits the new data. Any scientific theory is subject to being refuted by new evidence. A theory is not considered scientific unless it (among other criteria) could be shown to be false by new evidence. Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified. It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
A theory is just a model that fits the current body of empirical data.
I'm proud of you! You're making progress! Slowly...but surely.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified. It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
Actually, while not science per se, I think your statement is false (at least based on what I know about what ID is). I think it asserts that the creation of life is too complex a process to be created naturally, which therefore means that there was external assistance for formation. That appears to me to be a challenge to evolutionists to demonstrate that life is not too complicated to have formed naturally, rather than a non-falsifiable theory. The appropriate response to such a theory would be to either demonstrate that life did indeed evolve per the theory of evolution or accept that ID is a possible opposing theory that needs evidence to back it up.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Mormons
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
not the Christians
Mormons are Christians
ahz wrote:
Mormons are Christians
Not exactly the same. If anything they are more like a subset of Christains, but the two believe in totally different things. Jeremy Falcon
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A theory is just a model that fits the current body of empirical data. If new data comes along that contradicts the model, then the model is discarded, and a new one is constructed that better fits the new data. Any scientific theory is subject to being refuted by new evidence. A theory is not considered scientific unless it (among other criteria) could be shown to be false by new evidence. Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified. It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
A theory is not considered scientific unless it (among other criteria) could be shown to be false by new evidence.
I'm not sure that's quite correct. Perhaps semantic problem. According to wikipedia "Falsifiability is an important concept in the philosophy of science that amounts to the principle that a proposition or theory cannot be considered scientific if it does not admit the possibility of being shown false." (emphasis mine) Does that mean the theory itself must state it explicitly, or does that mean the theory must be formulated in such a manner or be of such a nature so that others can submit tests against the theory to "verify" it.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified
That would make it "unscientific", but not necessarily untrue. (Again according to wikipedia)
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
Does it really require faith? It seems ID is saying that some things are too complex to be explained by evolution so someone must've designed it. All one must do then is to explain one of the too-complex-things to show that ID is false according to "Naive Falsification". If that is the case, then ID is falsifiable and is a "scientific" theory. --- Anyway, the whole idea of falsifiability seems a bit strange to me -- seems you would rather want to prove what is true. I understand what is trying to be accomplished with falsifiability, though. If you can prove a theory false, then you move on to something better, hopefully. Eventually though, I think it might be possible to find or observe things that are impossible to explain. One could then postulate that humans simply aren't evolved or advanced enough. Which would lead one to wonder if there is something more advanced than humans who could understand the "impossible to explain" thing. Which would make you wonder if there were things that would be impossible for these extra-human brainiacs to explain. Eventually you continue on with this and begin to wonder if there isn't some "super-intelligent super-being" called "God".
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
A theory is just a model that fits the current body of empirical data.
I'm proud of you! You're making progress! Slowly...but surely.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified. It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
Actually, while not science per se, I think your statement is false (at least based on what I know about what ID is). I think it asserts that the creation of life is too complex a process to be created naturally, which therefore means that there was external assistance for formation. That appears to me to be a challenge to evolutionists to demonstrate that life is not too complicated to have formed naturally, rather than a non-falsifiable theory. The appropriate response to such a theory would be to either demonstrate that life did indeed evolve per the theory of evolution or accept that ID is a possible opposing theory that needs evidence to back it up.
espeir wrote:
Vincent Reynolds wrote: A theory is just a model that fits the current body of empirical data. I'm proud of you! You're making progress! Slowly...but surely.
espeir wrote:
ID is a possible opposing theory that needs evidence to back it up
These two statements contradict each other. A theory is based on evidence, yet you're saying ID is a theory that needs evidence.
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ahz wrote:
Mormons are Christians
Not exactly the same. If anything they are more like a subset of Christains, but the two believe in totally different things. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
two believe in totally different things
Can you give me an example?
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
two believe in totally different things
Can you give me an example?
Well, they believe in modifying/adding to the Bible (check out the Book of Mormon). Calthilics have done this too in the past though, but most other Christians find that completely wrong. Also, there's the door-to-door thing, which this joke was kinda poking fun of. I don't know how that got started, but it sure is annoying to have someone knock on your door when you're relaxing. Jeremy Falcon
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Well, they believe in modifying/adding to the Bible (check out the Book of Mormon). Calthilics have done this too in the past though, but most other Christians find that completely wrong. Also, there's the door-to-door thing, which this joke was kinda poking fun of. I don't know how that got started, but it sure is annoying to have someone knock on your door when you're relaxing. Jeremy Falcon
Hmm. According to them, the Book of Mormon is just another book of scripture, not an addition to the Bible. Just like the New Testament is an addition to the Old Testament. In fact, it wasn't until faily recent times that the New Testament letters were gathered together and put in book form. And then joined (or added) to the Old Testament to form the Bible or "the Book".
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
door-to-door thing
Yeah, I can see how that would be annoying.
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it's diatribe against cristians, muslims, jews and other God believing people.
Seeing that Judaism isn't missioning I guess you can exclude jews... "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
A theory is not considered scientific unless it (among other criteria) could be shown to be false by new evidence.
I'm not sure that's quite correct. Perhaps semantic problem. According to wikipedia "Falsifiability is an important concept in the philosophy of science that amounts to the principle that a proposition or theory cannot be considered scientific if it does not admit the possibility of being shown false." (emphasis mine) Does that mean the theory itself must state it explicitly, or does that mean the theory must be formulated in such a manner or be of such a nature so that others can submit tests against the theory to "verify" it.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified
That would make it "unscientific", but not necessarily untrue. (Again according to wikipedia)
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
Does it really require faith? It seems ID is saying that some things are too complex to be explained by evolution so someone must've designed it. All one must do then is to explain one of the too-complex-things to show that ID is false according to "Naive Falsification". If that is the case, then ID is falsifiable and is a "scientific" theory. --- Anyway, the whole idea of falsifiability seems a bit strange to me -- seems you would rather want to prove what is true. I understand what is trying to be accomplished with falsifiability, though. If you can prove a theory false, then you move on to something better, hopefully. Eventually though, I think it might be possible to find or observe things that are impossible to explain. One could then postulate that humans simply aren't evolved or advanced enough. Which would lead one to wonder if there is something more advanced than humans who could understand the "impossible to explain" thing. Which would make you wonder if there were things that would be impossible for these extra-human brainiacs to explain. Eventually you continue on with this and begin to wonder if there isn't some "super-intelligent super-being" called "God".
ahz wrote:
Does that mean the theory itself must state it explicitly, or does that mean the theory must be formulated in such a manner or be of such a nature so that others can submit tests against the theory to "verify" it.
The latter.
ahz wrote:
That would make it "unscientific", but not necessarily untrue. (Again according to wikipedia)
Correct. The controversy surrounding ID is entirely due to the fact that its proponents were/are pushing to have it taught as science. It may very well be true, but it isn't science.
ahz wrote:
Does it really require faith? It seems ID is saying that some things are too complex to be explained by evolution so someone must've designed it. All one must do then is to explain one of the too-complex-things to show that ID is false according to "Naive Falsification". If that is the case, then ID is falsifiable and is a "scientific" theory.
The concept of an "Intelligent Designer" is not on its face falsifiable. You can take it case by case, and case by case it may fall, but all the ID proponent needs to do is move on to another case. In other words, science defines a theory to explain a system. ID, while asserting nothing based on scientific evidence, insists that every flaw in competing theories be resolved in order to disprove ID. That's not how science works.
ahz wrote:
Anyway, the whole idea of falsifiability seems a bit strange to me -- seems you would rather want to prove what is true. I understand what is trying to be accomplished with falsifiability, though. If you can prove a theory false, then you move on to something better, hopefully. Eventually though, I think it might be possible to find or observe things that are impossible to explain. One could then postulate that humans simply aren't evolved or advanced enough. Which would lead one to wonder if there is something more advanced than humans who could understand the "impossible to explain" thing. Which would make you wonder if there were things that would be impossible for these extra-human brainiacs to explain. Eventually you continue on with this and begin to wonder if there isn't some "super-intelligent super-being" called "God".
Actually, you don't have to look that far to find things that science can't explain. Just change the question from "what" and "how" to "why" an
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espeir wrote:
have Christians
i think you mean "hate Christians".
espeir wrote:
were a kid
he's still juvenile.
No, I'm sure he meant 'have'. You know in like 'I can't com to work, I have the Flu'. "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Well, they believe in modifying/adding to the Bible (check out the Book of Mormon). Calthilics have done this too in the past though, but most other Christians find that completely wrong. Also, there's the door-to-door thing, which this joke was kinda poking fun of. I don't know how that got started, but it sure is annoying to have someone knock on your door when you're relaxing. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
most other Christians find that completely wrong.
So which version of which translation from which language does your denomination declare to be the one true Bible?
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ahz wrote:
Does that mean the theory itself must state it explicitly, or does that mean the theory must be formulated in such a manner or be of such a nature so that others can submit tests against the theory to "verify" it.
The latter.
ahz wrote:
That would make it "unscientific", but not necessarily untrue. (Again according to wikipedia)
Correct. The controversy surrounding ID is entirely due to the fact that its proponents were/are pushing to have it taught as science. It may very well be true, but it isn't science.
ahz wrote:
Does it really require faith? It seems ID is saying that some things are too complex to be explained by evolution so someone must've designed it. All one must do then is to explain one of the too-complex-things to show that ID is false according to "Naive Falsification". If that is the case, then ID is falsifiable and is a "scientific" theory.
The concept of an "Intelligent Designer" is not on its face falsifiable. You can take it case by case, and case by case it may fall, but all the ID proponent needs to do is move on to another case. In other words, science defines a theory to explain a system. ID, while asserting nothing based on scientific evidence, insists that every flaw in competing theories be resolved in order to disprove ID. That's not how science works.
ahz wrote:
Anyway, the whole idea of falsifiability seems a bit strange to me -- seems you would rather want to prove what is true. I understand what is trying to be accomplished with falsifiability, though. If you can prove a theory false, then you move on to something better, hopefully. Eventually though, I think it might be possible to find or observe things that are impossible to explain. One could then postulate that humans simply aren't evolved or advanced enough. Which would lead one to wonder if there is something more advanced than humans who could understand the "impossible to explain" thing. Which would make you wonder if there were things that would be impossible for these extra-human brainiacs to explain. Eventually you continue on with this and begin to wonder if there isn't some "super-intelligent super-being" called "God".
Actually, you don't have to look that far to find things that science can't explain. Just change the question from "what" and "how" to "why" an
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
The concept of an "Intelligent Designer" is not on its face falsifiable.
Well, yes true, but I was refering to the "too complex" parts. But, no matter.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
take it case by case, and case by case it may fall, but all the ID proponent needs to do is move on to another case
Unscientific. Additionally, according to wikipedia, eventually that would make ID too unweildy and would then be rejected. To quote: "At some point, the weight of the ad hoc hypotheses and disregarded falsifying observations will become so great that it becomes unreasonable to support the base theory any longer, and a decision will be made to reject it."
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
ID, while asserting nothing based on scientific evidence, insists that every flaw in competing theories be resolved in order to disprove ID
That's definately not scientific.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
don't have to look that far
True. I hadn't thought of your examples. Thanks for the insight.
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Seeing that Judaism isn't missioning I guess you can exclude jews... "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
jan larsen wrote:
Seeing that Judaism isn't missioning I guess you can exclude jews...
That may be true, but I think it's directed at the jews too.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
most other Christians find that completely wrong.
So which version of which translation from which language does your denomination declare to be the one true Bible?
Weren't you the atheist trying to convince me that you were actually a Christian of some sort?
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Weren't you the atheist trying to convince me that you were actually a Christian of some sort?
I'll bite. What part of that question makes me not a Christian?
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jan larsen wrote:
Seeing that Judaism isn't missioning I guess you can exclude jews...
That may be true, but I think it's directed at the jews too.
ahz wrote:
That may be true, but I think it's directed at the jews too.
Really?, why? "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr
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Vincent Reynolds wrote:
A theory is just a model that fits the current body of empirical data.
I'm proud of you! You're making progress! Slowly...but surely.
Vincent Reynolds wrote:
Intelligent Design, for example, cannot be falsified. It asserts a designer, the existence of which must be taken on faith.
Actually, while not science per se, I think your statement is false (at least based on what I know about what ID is). I think it asserts that the creation of life is too complex a process to be created naturally, which therefore means that there was external assistance for formation. That appears to me to be a challenge to evolutionists to demonstrate that life is not too complicated to have formed naturally, rather than a non-falsifiable theory. The appropriate response to such a theory would be to either demonstrate that life did indeed evolve per the theory of evolution or accept that ID is a possible opposing theory that needs evidence to back it up.
espeir wrote:
I think it asserts that the creation of life is too complex a process to be created naturally, which therefore means that there was external assistance for formation. That appears to me to be a challenge to evolutionists to demonstrate that life is not too complicated to have formed naturally, rather than a non-falsifiable theory. The appropriate response to such a theory would be to either demonstrate that life did indeed evolve per the theory of evolution or accept that ID is a possible opposing theory that needs that needs evidence to back it up.
Sorry if I sound a bit confused, I'm in the middle of trying to stop my brain spilling out of my ears.
espeir wrote:
That appears to me to be a challenge to evolutionists to demonstrate that life is not too complicated to have formed naturally
Uhm, yes?, it's called science, it's what scientists do for a living you know.
espeir wrote:
accept that ID is a possible opposing theory that needs evidence to back it up.
Before Darwin exposed his theory of evolution, he gathered lots of evidence. This is how science works. Scientists doesn't pick ideas at random, and then tries to prove them. When the ID people have gathered evidence for the existance of a higher being, which is the cornerstone of their idea, then they can propose a theory. "God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein "God not only plays dice, He sometimes throws the dices where they cannot be seen" - Niels Bohr