Amazing...
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digital man wrote:
I have trouble understanding people's reluctance to use animals for medical research.
Suppose it hadn't worked? We'd have had to pay for life-long care and support for a blind hamster. Where would you draw the line - would it be acceptable to blind 10 or 100 or 1,000 or 1,000,000 hamsters in the pursuit of this line of research? Suppose you maimed all those animals and it turned out to be a blind alley and they had been abused for no gain?
Good point. There's another one. It's a German proverb, I try to translate it: things you don't want to be done with you, you shouldn't do with others. (Original text: Das du nicht willst, das Dir man tu, das füg auch keinem andern zu) Maybe someone will argue now: ok they are just animals and humans life is more precious - well if some aliens would come or a higher race will grew on earth, do you like to be an "human test animal" for them? They might be higher developed and so they will take humans for animals. Quotation from Bloodhound gang: You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals... :) Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game -- modified at 7:31 Tuesday 14th March, 2006
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digital man wrote:
I have trouble understanding people's reluctance to use animals for medical research.
Suppose it hadn't worked? We'd have had to pay for life-long care and support for a blind hamster. Where would you draw the line - would it be acceptable to blind 10 or 100 or 1,000 or 1,000,000 hamsters in the pursuit of this line of research? Suppose you maimed all those animals and it turned out to be a blind alley and they had been abused for no gain?
I gave you a 5 for a very funny riposte: well put! www.merrens.com
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Animals are used to test makeup and many medicine where it's not necessary to hurt or kill animals. In most cases it's even more efficient and meaningful to use human cells. In cases of nerves to re-grew it's most times enough to test with human cells. In a special case (perhaps like this) it might be necessary to test with animals. Of course you are right. When a medicine or complementary medicine can't be found without the use of animal experiments I won't argue against them, anyway the most experiments aren't necessary. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game
Most animal test are carried out because of legislation. I would however mention thalidomide. The tigress is here :-D
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Neat result but I'm uncomfortable with deliberately blinding animals to do research.
Is it better if you eat them afterwards? They probably make good kebabs. Personaly, I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Is it better if you eat them afterwards? They probably make good kebabs. Personaly, I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Another good point with which I whole-heartedly agree. Maybe barring the hamster eating part. Maybe they're like soft-shelled crabs and you just pop a cooked one in your mouth, bite and swallow? Did try hedgehog once. Not bad. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.com -
Another good point with which I whole-heartedly agree. Maybe barring the hamster eating part. Maybe they're like soft-shelled crabs and you just pop a cooked one in your mouth, bite and swallow? Did try hedgehog once. Not bad. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comWell it's one point to eat animals giving them a death free from pain. But it's another point to hurt a living being. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game
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Is it better if you eat them afterwards? They probably make good kebabs. Personaly, I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
Personaly, I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being.
Would you ask this single human being whether they wanted a million animals killed in their name before setting out on your gore-fest?
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Well it's one point to eat animals giving them a death free from pain. But it's another point to hurt a living being. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game
5. Otherwise we might as well perform painful experiments on cows and sheep and pigs and poultry before sending them off to the abattoir.
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Another good point with which I whole-heartedly agree. Maybe barring the hamster eating part. Maybe they're like soft-shelled crabs and you just pop a cooked one in your mouth, bite and swallow? Did try hedgehog once. Not bad. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
Did try hedgehog once. Not bad.
Cool, that's one on my list. I was raised a vegetarian, so my part of my adolescent rebellion was to start eating meat. I'm now determined to consume as many different species of animal as possible before I snuff it, sort of like a noah's ark project. Must go squirrel hunting soon, though will have to be careful as I live in a neighbourhood full of hippies and the only things permitted to eat meat are their cats :) Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
Personaly, I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being.
Would you ask this single human being whether they wanted a million animals killed in their name before setting out on your gore-fest?
If it was so simple in real life, yep. Nothing better than forcing animal rights types to stick their life (or that of their children) where their mouth is. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Well it's one point to eat animals giving them a death free from pain. But it's another point to hurt a living being. Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game
ihoecken wrote:
Well it's one point to eat animals giving them a death free from pain.
Erm, getting electrocuted and your throat cut is probably quite painful, certainly not my idea of a nice peaceful death. More so if you are unfortunate enough to be butchered in conformance with Halal or Kosha laws. Meat is murder. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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It was a serious question: I have trouble understanding people's reluctance to use animals for medical research. The benefits to be derived from this particular research could be far-reaching, helping many people and whilst I personally hate the thought of hurting animals for any reason I can see why this is necessary. Unless you could suggest an alternative way of conducting this research that would enable the same advances to accrue? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
The benefits to be derived from this particular research could be far-reaching, helping many people and whilst I personally hate the thought of hurting animals for any reason I can see why this is necessary.
It's interesting how you combine words like "necessary" and "helping" of one species when talking about cruelty to another. Just because a hamster doesn't say "ow" or "no, nice mister scientist, I would prefer not to be blinded" makes it somehow ok. There are a lot of prisoners who've committed heinous crimes sitting on death row, why not experiment on those? Hmmm? What about all the retarded people in the world? They won't notice, right? What about people you might hate, like Jews? Oh wait, been there, done that.
digital man wrote:
Unless you could suggest an alternative way of conducting this research that would enable the same advances to accrue?
Ah yes, the "if you're so smart..." comeback. Ridiculous. If scientists had any scruples, they *would* find different solutions. But animals are cheap, easy, and numerous. Why worry about the animal? After all, it's in the Bible, that God gave us all the animals to rule over. X| Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures
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Is it better if you eat them afterwards? They probably make good kebabs. Personaly, I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Ryan Roberts wrote:
I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being.
I strongly disagree. Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures
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Good point. There's another one. It's a German proverb, I try to translate it: things you don't want to be done with you, you shouldn't do with others. (Original text: Das du nicht willst, das Dir man tu, das füg auch keinem andern zu) Maybe someone will argue now: ok they are just animals and humans life is more precious - well if some aliens would come or a higher race will grew on earth, do you like to be an "human test animal" for them? They might be higher developed and so they will take humans for animals. Quotation from Bloodhound gang: You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals... :) Greetings, Ingo ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game -- modified at 7:31 Tuesday 14th March, 2006
ihoecken wrote:
well if some aliens would come or a higher race will grew on earth, do you like to be an "human test animal" for them?
Of course you wouldn't but who do you think will care for your oppinion? You saw "Planet of the Apes" right?:) regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
I would sacrifice a million rodents to restore the sight of a single human being.
I strongly disagree. Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures
Fair enough, best empty that medicine cabinet and refuse to have surgery then. For many circumstances, animal models are the only viable option we currently have. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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ihoecken wrote:
well if some aliens would come or a higher race will grew on earth, do you like to be an "human test animal" for them?
Of course you wouldn't but who do you think will care for your oppinion? You saw "Planet of the Apes" right?:) regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Mircea Grelus wrote:
Of course you wouldn't but who do you think will care for your oppinion? You saw "Planet of the Apes" right?
Well that would be no problem. I behave like an ape, so I won't attract attention - just some days without razor - violà! :-> ------------------------------ PROST Roleplaying Game
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If it was so simple in real life, yep. Nothing better than forcing animal rights types to stick their life (or that of their children) where their mouth is. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
Well, I hope that the first thing they saw would be the pile of a million corpses, and that they would then answer the question if they thought it was worth it.
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5. Otherwise we might as well perform painful experiments on cows and sheep and pigs and poultry before sending them off to the abattoir.
The point is I don't disagree that hurting ANY creature for the sake of it is unquestionalbly wrong but to conduct experiments that can prolong human life or make my children better or give me back my sight or hearing... Well that is something else altogether. I'm not saying it's right but neither will I say it is wrong and unless and until someone can show me that no animal experementation is required, at all, then it will retain my support.
viaduct wrote:
Otherwise we might as well perform painful experiments on cows and sheep and pigs and poultry before sending them off to the abattoir.
That's off point and misguided: most of the animals we eat are bred soley for that purpose: that in my mind, is far more cruel than a few experiments. However, I would not stop eating meat for any reason other than my doctor told me to. Apparently I'm having a rather nice spag-bol for dinner made with lean ground beef. Given the choice I'm sure the cow would rather be out chewing cud than lining my stomach. But that's life. www.merrens.com
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digital man wrote:
The benefits to be derived from this particular research could be far-reaching, helping many people and whilst I personally hate the thought of hurting animals for any reason I can see why this is necessary.
It's interesting how you combine words like "necessary" and "helping" of one species when talking about cruelty to another. Just because a hamster doesn't say "ow" or "no, nice mister scientist, I would prefer not to be blinded" makes it somehow ok. There are a lot of prisoners who've committed heinous crimes sitting on death row, why not experiment on those? Hmmm? What about all the retarded people in the world? They won't notice, right? What about people you might hate, like Jews? Oh wait, been there, done that.
digital man wrote:
Unless you could suggest an alternative way of conducting this research that would enable the same advances to accrue?
Ah yes, the "if you're so smart..." comeback. Ridiculous. If scientists had any scruples, they *would* find different solutions. But animals are cheap, easy, and numerous. Why worry about the animal? After all, it's in the Bible, that God gave us all the animals to rule over. X| Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures
One must also remember that these were probably not "free range" hamsters captured in the rain forest. These specific animals were bred by humans purposely for medical experiments. (ie. they owe their lives to science). "If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done." - Peter Ustinov
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digital man wrote:
The benefits to be derived from this particular research could be far-reaching, helping many people and whilst I personally hate the thought of hurting animals for any reason I can see why this is necessary.
It's interesting how you combine words like "necessary" and "helping" of one species when talking about cruelty to another. Just because a hamster doesn't say "ow" or "no, nice mister scientist, I would prefer not to be blinded" makes it somehow ok. There are a lot of prisoners who've committed heinous crimes sitting on death row, why not experiment on those? Hmmm? What about all the retarded people in the world? They won't notice, right? What about people you might hate, like Jews? Oh wait, been there, done that.
digital man wrote:
Unless you could suggest an alternative way of conducting this research that would enable the same advances to accrue?
Ah yes, the "if you're so smart..." comeback. Ridiculous. If scientists had any scruples, they *would* find different solutions. But animals are cheap, easy, and numerous. Why worry about the animal? After all, it's in the Bible, that God gave us all the animals to rule over. X| Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures
Blimey, where did all that come from? Perhaps you could suggest some other form of words which won't offend you in some way but allow me to convey my OPINION which I should be able to do without a vitriolic and childsih attack from you. I don't and won't deny you your point of view: why would you deny me mine?
Marc Clifton wrote:
Ah yes, the "if you're so smart..." comeback. Ridiculous. If scientists had any scruples, they *would* find different solutions. But animals are cheap, easy, and numerous. Why worry about the animal? After all, it's in the Bible, that God gave us all the animals to rule over
Now I know you're being silly: I asked a not unreasonable question. If you have no answer then say nothing: don't attack me becuase I asked it; rather be good enough to come up with a proper answer instead of bile. BTW, I'd like to think that most scientists have scruples but the sad fact is that most research is funded and that means that they will use animlas because they are cheap, easy and numerous. But if you're happy to abandon all research... Maybe we'll wait and see until you get a bit older and things start going wrong or, heaven forbid, your child is ill and the only way to save them is through medicine developed through animal research. Would you turn it down? Of course you wont. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.com