IT Recruiters and Dishonesty???
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I've had two recent potential job openings that were being handled through recruiters, where I interviewed with the actual client, and was contacted after the interview by the recruiter with some sort of vague informal offer. Specifically, the last one told me this: "The company liked you, thought you were a good fit, we have to get some paperwork together, and we'll be back in touch, just be patient, the guy hiring for the position has a lot on his plate right now and sometimes he is a little slow to follow through". Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file. Budgetary changes in mid-March - uhmm right. The first time I thought it was just a fluke. Now I feel like this is probably SOP at staffing companies to keep a few people on the hook that the client thinks are good possibles until a final selection has been made. Have many of you experienced this?
This is more common that it should be. In essence you were played from the beginning--the department in question is trying to get a project approved. By doing interviews they can not only get a definitive budget, they can add actual qualifications of the potential employees to the proposal being sent up. Now it's true that approval could happen, but projects set up like this rarely do. There is a well known employer where I live that used to do this for EVERY project. People got so pissed they started to refuse to go to interviews (this even included secretaries, not just high paid types) and several recruiters joined the boycott. Needless to say the employer changed their hiring methodology. (Whatever you think of recruiters, they hate this crap. It costs them money and they don't get commissions to make house payments and the like.) All this is still better than being flown to an interview after being promised the offer, if one, would be at least a certain amount and then to have the hiring manager give an actual offer a full third less than that mininum. (The interview itself was hilarious--the other potential team members looked absolutely petrified when it became clear I had more experience than all of them added together times ten.) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I've had two recent potential job openings that were being handled through recruiters, where I interviewed with the actual client, and was contacted after the interview by the recruiter with some sort of vague informal offer. Specifically, the last one told me this: "The company liked you, thought you were a good fit, we have to get some paperwork together, and we'll be back in touch, just be patient, the guy hiring for the position has a lot on his plate right now and sometimes he is a little slow to follow through". Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file. Budgetary changes in mid-March - uhmm right. The first time I thought it was just a fluke. Now I feel like this is probably SOP at staffing companies to keep a few people on the hook that the client thinks are good possibles until a final selection has been made. Have many of you experienced this?
I think this falls under the category, "If you want it done right then do it yourself." That's not a slap either. When I look for jobs (not anymore) I would select companies that I liked (I highly recommend those of you with jobs do something similar just to have a relationship if you need it.) Regardless of any openings posted or otherwise and I would call the human resource department. I would get one name of one person and I would speak to them. Generally it would go like this: "Hi, my name is Joe Dirt. I've been watching your company for a while and I've heard some great stuff about it. I'd be very interested in working their if an opportunity presents itself (here is where you want to make sure that a position isn't publicly posted or you'll look stupid). I've been working with software for this long and I've got a background that I think would be compatible with your company. May I send you a resume that you can keep on file?" Short and sweet. What's cool here is that if they have a position that's only been posted internally but you are diligent like this and your skills are more qualified then you might get into the pile where others won't. I received one job doing this. Once you've made contact with companies that are your first choice do a follow up every 30 days and let them know you are still interested. At the same time you are doing all of this watch the local rags for postings. This might include papers, web-sites, job servicers, etc... Never go to Monster and never use a staffing agency unless you are referred their by a company. HP will almost always refer you to a staffing agency unless they hire you out of college recruitment. Anyway, maybe this will help and maybe it won't. It certainly takes more work than using a recruiter but I think the pay-off is higher and worth it. - Rex
Overheard in clients: Question: "So country music doesn't make you want to get down and boogie?" Response: "No, it makes me want to clean off the bottom of my shoe." I just have to say that's about one of the best statements regarding country music I've ever heard. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now.
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I think this falls under the category, "If you want it done right then do it yourself." That's not a slap either. When I look for jobs (not anymore) I would select companies that I liked (I highly recommend those of you with jobs do something similar just to have a relationship if you need it.) Regardless of any openings posted or otherwise and I would call the human resource department. I would get one name of one person and I would speak to them. Generally it would go like this: "Hi, my name is Joe Dirt. I've been watching your company for a while and I've heard some great stuff about it. I'd be very interested in working their if an opportunity presents itself (here is where you want to make sure that a position isn't publicly posted or you'll look stupid). I've been working with software for this long and I've got a background that I think would be compatible with your company. May I send you a resume that you can keep on file?" Short and sweet. What's cool here is that if they have a position that's only been posted internally but you are diligent like this and your skills are more qualified then you might get into the pile where others won't. I received one job doing this. Once you've made contact with companies that are your first choice do a follow up every 30 days and let them know you are still interested. At the same time you are doing all of this watch the local rags for postings. This might include papers, web-sites, job servicers, etc... Never go to Monster and never use a staffing agency unless you are referred their by a company. HP will almost always refer you to a staffing agency unless they hire you out of college recruitment. Anyway, maybe this will help and maybe it won't. It certainly takes more work than using a recruiter but I think the pay-off is higher and worth it. - Rex
Overheard in clients: Question: "So country music doesn't make you want to get down and boogie?" Response: "No, it makes me want to clean off the bottom of my shoe." I just have to say that's about one of the best statements regarding country music I've ever heard. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now.
Well I say recruiter, but actually it was an IT staffing agency that contacted me initially. Unfortunately, in the area where I live if you look at any of the major job sites all the positions are being offered through staffing agencies. There are practically no direct contacts.
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This is more common that it should be. In essence you were played from the beginning--the department in question is trying to get a project approved. By doing interviews they can not only get a definitive budget, they can add actual qualifications of the potential employees to the proposal being sent up. Now it's true that approval could happen, but projects set up like this rarely do. There is a well known employer where I live that used to do this for EVERY project. People got so pissed they started to refuse to go to interviews (this even included secretaries, not just high paid types) and several recruiters joined the boycott. Needless to say the employer changed their hiring methodology. (Whatever you think of recruiters, they hate this crap. It costs them money and they don't get commissions to make house payments and the like.) All this is still better than being flown to an interview after being promised the offer, if one, would be at least a certain amount and then to have the hiring manager give an actual offer a full third less than that mininum. (The interview itself was hilarious--the other potential team members looked absolutely petrified when it became clear I had more experience than all of them added together times ten.) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
This was a small company. I don't think they would bother with interviewing people if they weren't hiring. I'm pretty sure it was the staffing representative who was dicking me around. He could have just told me my interview went well and I was being considered, but they still had a few people to talk to. That's not much of an expectation. But what really burns me is this lame excuse - don't piss on me like I'm some kind of dumbass, just tell me they hired someone else, and I would have no problem with that.
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Well I say recruiter, but actually it was an IT staffing agency that contacted me initially. Unfortunately, in the area where I live if you look at any of the major job sites all the positions are being offered through staffing agencies. There are practically no direct contacts.
That's why you fire up the phone book and start working the system. It's not an easy process at all but it pay's off. A lot of companies want to see someone who thinks outside the box and is willing to be unconventional to get something done. If I was a human resource recruiter and then to a manager I would be extremely interested in people who went out of their way to be distinct. There's a rule in life I've learned and you really have to think about it. But it goes like this, "Any excuse will work and no solution will come. Start by defeating excuses and then you have started down a path towards success." I try to not use excuses in my undertakings. If I run into something that could be used as an excuse I add it to my own problem definition and keep going. (Obviously, you have to recognize laws, limits and physics but aside from that... only opportunity awaits and it only waits for the diligent. - Rex
Overheard in clients: Question: "So country music doesn't make you want to get down and boogie?" Response: "No, it makes me want to clean off the bottom of my shoe." I just have to say that's about one of the best statements regarding country music I've ever heard. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now.
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That's why you fire up the phone book and start working the system. It's not an easy process at all but it pay's off. A lot of companies want to see someone who thinks outside the box and is willing to be unconventional to get something done. If I was a human resource recruiter and then to a manager I would be extremely interested in people who went out of their way to be distinct. There's a rule in life I've learned and you really have to think about it. But it goes like this, "Any excuse will work and no solution will come. Start by defeating excuses and then you have started down a path towards success." I try to not use excuses in my undertakings. If I run into something that could be used as an excuse I add it to my own problem definition and keep going. (Obviously, you have to recognize laws, limits and physics but aside from that... only opportunity awaits and it only waits for the diligent. - Rex
Overheard in clients: Question: "So country music doesn't make you want to get down and boogie?" Response: "No, it makes me want to clean off the bottom of my shoe." I just have to say that's about one of the best statements regarding country music I've ever heard. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now.
I have to respectfully disagree with some of your statements. First of all, I think this ploy by staffing agencies is pretty transparent. They have a candidate who has interviewed and now they want to discourage that candidate from aggressively seeking other positions until they get a decision. If the candidate were not in the race, they would not bother. I see that as a certain measure of "success" even if I did not get selected. I certainly feel no need to make excuses for near misses - I was simply stating that I find the way staffing agencies handle this situation as unprofessional and unneccessary. They should simply tell me the truth. Secondly, while it may have proved successful for you as an individual, I have some reservations about the effectiveness of cold calling as you describe. But much more importantly for me as an individual, I can tell you that technique does not work at all, because I am seeking positions at small firms, usually engineering, that almost invariably do not even have HR managers, and don't typically bother to even keep resumes on file. In my 20 year professional career I have only worked at one company that even had an HR department, and they did not have one at the time when I myself was hired. I know very well how these companies function, and small companies are too busy with work to have any use for buzzwords like "out of the box" - that is a big company mentality. And I can assure you, cold calling these types of companies accomplishes nothing more than you being a 1 minute nuisance phone call to someone who is very busy and 99.9% of the time not hiring anyway. A more effective approach in my opinion, and one I would recommend to anyone, whether they are looking for a position in a small firm or a large corporation, is networking with other programmers that can recognize you have skills, rather than spending time cold calling non-technical HR people. I have gotten several job offers in this fashion from other people who got their jobs the same way. In the last couple of years I have been very busy on a contract and in my personal life, and let my networking activities lapse. I make no excuses for that either :) - I simply plan to get back out into the local user groups and get back into the local programmer community again.
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I've had two recent potential job openings that were being handled through recruiters, where I interviewed with the actual client, and was contacted after the interview by the recruiter with some sort of vague informal offer. Specifically, the last one told me this: "The company liked you, thought you were a good fit, we have to get some paperwork together, and we'll be back in touch, just be patient, the guy hiring for the position has a lot on his plate right now and sometimes he is a little slow to follow through". Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file. Budgetary changes in mid-March - uhmm right. The first time I thought it was just a fluke. Now I feel like this is probably SOP at staffing companies to keep a few people on the hook that the client thinks are good possibles until a final selection has been made. Have many of you experienced this?
Always remember where they get their paycheck from. They represent the company, not you, so they usually do their best to make them happy. That usually means only having you engaged with only one company at a time and keeping you available to them. You just have to keep that in mind when you deal with companies like this.
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I've had two recent potential job openings that were being handled through recruiters, where I interviewed with the actual client, and was contacted after the interview by the recruiter with some sort of vague informal offer. Specifically, the last one told me this: "The company liked you, thought you were a good fit, we have to get some paperwork together, and we'll be back in touch, just be patient, the guy hiring for the position has a lot on his plate right now and sometimes he is a little slow to follow through". Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file. Budgetary changes in mid-March - uhmm right. The first time I thought it was just a fluke. Now I feel like this is probably SOP at staffing companies to keep a few people on the hook that the client thinks are good possibles until a final selection has been made. Have many of you experienced this?
Budgetary constraints in March? Absolutely. However, that's the point. You clearly didn't have an offer and the recruiter choses his/her words carefully to make you think you did. Having worked with recruiters for more years than I care to recall, this isn't very surprising. On average, they know next to nothing about the technologies or even the companies they're supposedly hiring for. They're nothing more than people who search the Internet/resumes doing "keyword matching" and then throwing everything they can at a job in the hopes of getting one to stick. Remember that their industry has also gone to pot with outsourcing and as a result, there are now far too many recruiters for the amount of job openings. Therefore, you're seeing this more and more as recruiters want to keep you around until they find *something* for you. Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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Budgetary constraints in March? Absolutely. However, that's the point. You clearly didn't have an offer and the recruiter choses his/her words carefully to make you think you did. Having worked with recruiters for more years than I care to recall, this isn't very surprising. On average, they know next to nothing about the technologies or even the companies they're supposedly hiring for. They're nothing more than people who search the Internet/resumes doing "keyword matching" and then throwing everything they can at a job in the hopes of getting one to stick. Remember that their industry has also gone to pot with outsourcing and as a result, there are now far too many recruiters for the amount of job openings. Therefore, you're seeing this more and more as recruiters want to keep you around until they find *something* for you. Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
Tom Archer - MSFT wrote:
On average, they know next to nothing about the technologies or even the companies they're supposedly hiring for. They're nothing more than people who search the Internet/resumes doing "keyword matching" and then throwing everything they can at a job in the hopes of getting one to stick.
Yes, this is a big problem. It's also hard to find good people when you treat them like commodities.
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I've had two recent potential job openings that were being handled through recruiters, where I interviewed with the actual client, and was contacted after the interview by the recruiter with some sort of vague informal offer. Specifically, the last one told me this: "The company liked you, thought you were a good fit, we have to get some paperwork together, and we'll be back in touch, just be patient, the guy hiring for the position has a lot on his plate right now and sometimes he is a little slow to follow through". Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file. Budgetary changes in mid-March - uhmm right. The first time I thought it was just a fluke. Now I feel like this is probably SOP at staffing companies to keep a few people on the hook that the client thinks are good possibles until a final selection has been made. Have many of you experienced this?
rwestgraham wrote:
Have many of you experienced this?
Yep several times. I would trust a used car salesman or a real estate agent before I would a recruiter. It can work the opposite way as well. I once had a situation where I went for two interviews on the same day. The first one offered me the position which I verbally accepted. She asked me to come and sign the paper work that afternoon but I told her I couldnt make it until the next day. I went for the second interview in the afternoon which was a much better job. They offered me the position which I accepted. I called the recruiter for the first position and told her I had changed my mind. She called me all the names under the sun, told me that a gentleman doesnt break a verbal agreement, her company would never deal with me again, my name would be mud in the industry etc etc A few years later I was looking for a job and she called me. Took her a few moments but she realised who I was and she offered to put it all behind her if I would go for an interview. They are just after their commision. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
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rwestgraham wrote:
Have many of you experienced this?
Yep several times. I would trust a used car salesman or a real estate agent before I would a recruiter. It can work the opposite way as well. I once had a situation where I went for two interviews on the same day. The first one offered me the position which I verbally accepted. She asked me to come and sign the paper work that afternoon but I told her I couldnt make it until the next day. I went for the second interview in the afternoon which was a much better job. They offered me the position which I accepted. I called the recruiter for the first position and told her I had changed my mind. She called me all the names under the sun, told me that a gentleman doesnt break a verbal agreement, her company would never deal with me again, my name would be mud in the industry etc etc A few years later I was looking for a job and she called me. Took her a few moments but she realised who I was and she offered to put it all behind her if I would go for an interview. They are just after their commision. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Josh Gray wrote:
my name would be mud in the industry
Yep. There's this double-secret database that includes people like you. I could get into trouble just for replying to one of your posts. :suss: Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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Josh Gray wrote:
my name would be mud in the industry
Yep. There's this double-secret database that includes people like you. I could get into trouble just for replying to one of your posts. :suss: Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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:) Telling fibbs is not something I am proud of but you have to look after yourself. These people are not running a charity after all Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
I think we've all played that game: Step 1: You get the offer Step 2: Response: "I need to talk to my wife before making a final decision" Step 3: Ring everyone you've interviewed with and tell them you've got an offer on the table so it's their last chance to make a decision Step 4: Make any last minute interviews just in case :cool: Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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I think we've all played that game: Step 1: You get the offer Step 2: Response: "I need to talk to my wife before making a final decision" Step 3: Ring everyone you've interviewed with and tell them you've got an offer on the table so it's their last chance to make a decision Step 4: Make any last minute interviews just in case :cool: Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
You guys are a lot more mercernarial than I am. :~ Luckily I have also been in renegotiations with the people I was on contract with for the last 2 years and it looks like we are coming to a new agreement for 6-12 more months. :cool:
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rwestgraham wrote:
Have many of you experienced this?
Yep several times. I would trust a used car salesman or a real estate agent before I would a recruiter. It can work the opposite way as well. I once had a situation where I went for two interviews on the same day. The first one offered me the position which I verbally accepted. She asked me to come and sign the paper work that afternoon but I told her I couldnt make it until the next day. I went for the second interview in the afternoon which was a much better job. They offered me the position which I accepted. I called the recruiter for the first position and told her I had changed my mind. She called me all the names under the sun, told me that a gentleman doesnt break a verbal agreement, her company would never deal with me again, my name would be mud in the industry etc etc A few years later I was looking for a job and she called me. Took her a few moments but she realised who I was and she offered to put it all behind her if I would go for an interview. They are just after their commision. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Josh Gray wrote:
A few years later I was looking for a job and she called me. Took her a few moments but she realised who I was and she offered to put it all behind her if I would go for an interview.
:laugh::laugh: Yeah, that's one for the programmers! Jeremy Falcon
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I have to respectfully disagree with some of your statements. First of all, I think this ploy by staffing agencies is pretty transparent. They have a candidate who has interviewed and now they want to discourage that candidate from aggressively seeking other positions until they get a decision. If the candidate were not in the race, they would not bother. I see that as a certain measure of "success" even if I did not get selected. I certainly feel no need to make excuses for near misses - I was simply stating that I find the way staffing agencies handle this situation as unprofessional and unneccessary. They should simply tell me the truth. Secondly, while it may have proved successful for you as an individual, I have some reservations about the effectiveness of cold calling as you describe. But much more importantly for me as an individual, I can tell you that technique does not work at all, because I am seeking positions at small firms, usually engineering, that almost invariably do not even have HR managers, and don't typically bother to even keep resumes on file. In my 20 year professional career I have only worked at one company that even had an HR department, and they did not have one at the time when I myself was hired. I know very well how these companies function, and small companies are too busy with work to have any use for buzzwords like "out of the box" - that is a big company mentality. And I can assure you, cold calling these types of companies accomplishes nothing more than you being a 1 minute nuisance phone call to someone who is very busy and 99.9% of the time not hiring anyway. A more effective approach in my opinion, and one I would recommend to anyone, whether they are looking for a position in a small firm or a large corporation, is networking with other programmers that can recognize you have skills, rather than spending time cold calling non-technical HR people. I have gotten several job offers in this fashion from other people who got their jobs the same way. In the last couple of years I have been very busy on a contract and in my personal life, and let my networking activities lapse. I make no excuses for that either :) - I simply plan to get back out into the local user groups and get back into the local programmer community again.
You misunderstood me completely. I wasn't implying anything about you. I was saying if you don't like the agencies and think they are dishonest try some other things. Don't let any excuses stop you though. Sorry I came across that way and I can see how I could have but that was not my intent at all.:rose: I feel like total crap about that...
Overheard in clients: Question: "So country music doesn't make you want to get down and boogie?" Response: "No, it makes me want to clean off the bottom of my shoe." I just have to say that's about one of the best statements regarding country music I've ever heard. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now.
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I've had two recent potential job openings that were being handled through recruiters, where I interviewed with the actual client, and was contacted after the interview by the recruiter with some sort of vague informal offer. Specifically, the last one told me this: "The company liked you, thought you were a good fit, we have to get some paperwork together, and we'll be back in touch, just be patient, the guy hiring for the position has a lot on his plate right now and sometimes he is a little slow to follow through". Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file. Budgetary changes in mid-March - uhmm right. The first time I thought it was just a fluke. Now I feel like this is probably SOP at staffing companies to keep a few people on the hook that the client thinks are good possibles until a final selection has been made. Have many of you experienced this?
recruiters are dishonest. It's in their nature. I've worked with them several times over my career and I can say that most of them will say whatever and do whatever to make their money.
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You misunderstood me completely. I wasn't implying anything about you. I was saying if you don't like the agencies and think they are dishonest try some other things. Don't let any excuses stop you though. Sorry I came across that way and I can see how I could have but that was not my intent at all.:rose: I feel like total crap about that...
Overheard in clients: Question: "So country music doesn't make you want to get down and boogie?" Response: "No, it makes me want to clean off the bottom of my shoe." I just have to say that's about one of the best statements regarding country music I've ever heard. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now.
No problem. :cool:
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No problem. :cool:
Well I can totally see how you would have seen it the way you did and that makes me feel like a jack-@$$. So just understand I'm truly sorry for how that came across.:rose:
Overheard in clients: Question: "So country music doesn't make you want to get down and boogie?" Response: "No, it makes me want to clean off the bottom of my shoe." I just have to say that's about one of the best statements regarding country music I've ever heard. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now.
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I've had two recent potential job openings that were being handled through recruiters, where I interviewed with the actual client, and was contacted after the interview by the recruiter with some sort of vague informal offer. Specifically, the last one told me this: "The company liked you, thought you were a good fit, we have to get some paperwork together, and we'll be back in touch, just be patient, the guy hiring for the position has a lot on his plate right now and sometimes he is a little slow to follow through". Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file. Budgetary changes in mid-March - uhmm right. The first time I thought it was just a fluke. Now I feel like this is probably SOP at staffing companies to keep a few people on the hook that the client thinks are good possibles until a final selection has been made. Have many of you experienced this?
rwestgraham wrote:
Then I get a call a week later saying unfortunately "budgetary constraints" have changed but we'll keep your resume on file.
Actually this almost happened with us.... we were hiring... the process took so long to set up (several months) that the government withdrew funding for one of the projects we were awarded (yes does happen). But we also got funding for a different project (not quite as much), so we didn't have to do what happened to you.... still we could have easily. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)