Office 12 Controls
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Judah Himango wrote:
I would also add that "aesthetically pleasing" apps are not 256 color apps with Windows 95-esque mono solids.
And where did I say that an application should look that way? I didn't.
Judah Himango wrote:
A polished UI includes eye candy. Eye candy is something that looks nice. If your UI works well, great. But if looks like crap, its going to be unattractived and used less, due to the negative impression it leaves on your users.
Well of course! But you're trying to purposely pick an extreme example here to justify all the glitz. But Windows 2000/XP/etc gives you all the neccessary common controls. APIs and UI elements to make a perfectly functional UI that looks great, or least looks *standard* within the context of the rest of the system. If you want to add nicer icons great. But there's *no* reason to go and spend oodles of time on a toolbar that has 14 dynamic gradients, with tabs and gradient selections. Doing that is just adding eye-candy to add eye-candy, and that's what I'm complaining about. If that's what you need to do because you need to distinguish your application, fine, then call it what it is, which is just eye-candy for marketing purposes - don't dress it up in fancy terms and claim "ooh the users asked for this". That's just bullshit. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
And where did I say that an application should look that way? I didn't.
You didn't, and I didn't say you did, Jim. :) I placed a limit on the boundaries; you said apps don't need to have millions of gradients, I countered by saying apps need more than 256 colors. All in the name of looking good. The problem with your argument, as I see it, is this: what you just mentioned can be likened to 20 years ago. Imagine if someone just said the same thing as you did, only 20 years back:
"But Windows 1.0 gives you all the necessary common controls, APIs and UI elements to make a perfectly functional UI that looks great (or at least *standard* within the context of the system). If you want to add 16 color icons, great. But there's *no* reason to go and spend ooldles of time on a app UI that has 256 colors, with buttons and multi-colored menus. Doing that is just adding eye-candy to add eye-candy, that's what I'm complaining about."
See the problem? If UI progress means more colors and more definition, higher resolutions, fine lines, smoother transitions, rounded corners, even 3d...then hell, I'm all for it. If I wasn't all for it, I'd just be a luddite in denial.
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Jim Crafton wrote:
And where did I say that an application should look that way? I didn't.
You didn't, and I didn't say you did, Jim. :) I placed a limit on the boundaries; you said apps don't need to have millions of gradients, I countered by saying apps need more than 256 colors. All in the name of looking good. The problem with your argument, as I see it, is this: what you just mentioned can be likened to 20 years ago. Imagine if someone just said the same thing as you did, only 20 years back:
"But Windows 1.0 gives you all the necessary common controls, APIs and UI elements to make a perfectly functional UI that looks great (or at least *standard* within the context of the system). If you want to add 16 color icons, great. But there's *no* reason to go and spend ooldles of time on a app UI that has 256 colors, with buttons and multi-colored menus. Doing that is just adding eye-candy to add eye-candy, that's what I'm complaining about."
See the problem? If UI progress means more colors and more definition, higher resolutions, fine lines, smoother transitions, rounded corners, even 3d...then hell, I'm all for it. If I wasn't all for it, I'd just be a luddite in denial.
Judah Himango wrote:
If UI progress means more colors and more definition, higher resolutions, fine lines, smoother transitions, rounded corners, even 3d...then hell, I'm all for it. If I wasn't all for it, I'd just be a luddite in denial.
If UI progress was in the *entire* windowing system I'd be a lot more receptive to it. But it's not. For example, the standard toolbars you create, or buttons, or whatever will not look or behave like this. It's strictly app localized. So what you end up with is a mish-mash of apps that behave wildly different. What you end up with is X Windows[^]. If you stick with largely standard elements then *everybody* moves forward together, and your users learning efforts pay off for *all* the apps that they use, not just one or two. What Office is presenting is a (possibly) completely different learning curve, one that is quite different from all the other applications. And if we all jump on this bandwagon, then we all need to stop improving our applications and instead devote either time *re-implementing* this stuff, or money on buying components that do so, all for something of dubious value to the customer. If this were integrated into the OS/windowing system then we could just all use it, and og about our business. And I'd be a lot more amendable to that. I'm all for progress. I just think the progress needs to happen at the right place, and a whole bunch of apps re-implementing the wheel on this stuff doesn't seem like the right place. What it reminds me of is this: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html[^] ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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I just can't stand this new-fangled UI whiz bang gadgetry, with its millions of colors, its big icons, gradients, and those soft-cornered buttons. Back in my day we had black and white prompts, and that's where you got the real work done! It was hard times back then, but we struggled and made it through. Men were men, we had hair on our chests, and we had to work for a living! :rolleyes:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: How 'bout a little guitar now? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Yes we heard you the first time :) It feels good to quote yourself huh? :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Judah Himango wrote:
If UI progress means more colors and more definition, higher resolutions, fine lines, smoother transitions, rounded corners, even 3d...then hell, I'm all for it. If I wasn't all for it, I'd just be a luddite in denial.
If UI progress was in the *entire* windowing system I'd be a lot more receptive to it. But it's not. For example, the standard toolbars you create, or buttons, or whatever will not look or behave like this. It's strictly app localized. So what you end up with is a mish-mash of apps that behave wildly different. What you end up with is X Windows[^]. If you stick with largely standard elements then *everybody* moves forward together, and your users learning efforts pay off for *all* the apps that they use, not just one or two. What Office is presenting is a (possibly) completely different learning curve, one that is quite different from all the other applications. And if we all jump on this bandwagon, then we all need to stop improving our applications and instead devote either time *re-implementing* this stuff, or money on buying components that do so, all for something of dubious value to the customer. If this were integrated into the OS/windowing system then we could just all use it, and og about our business. And I'd be a lot more amendable to that. I'm all for progress. I just think the progress needs to happen at the right place, and a whole bunch of apps re-implementing the wheel on this stuff doesn't seem like the right place. What it reminds me of is this: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html[^] ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
I see where you're coming from. I think the problem remains that if everybody's doing the same thing, there's no progress. Someone, at some point, has to step forward and introduce a new idea, despite the criticisms of unfamiliarity and being different. If it's bad, it's rejected and everyone will continue on. If it's good, people will jump on the bandwagon until a newer and better concept evolves. Essentially, that is what is being argued here. Progress versus familiarity. We cannot and should not wait for something to be "integrated into the OS/windowing system" just to move foward with UI progress. That's not a good idea. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: How 'bout a little guitar now? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yes we heard you the first time :) It feels good to quote yourself huh? :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
I'm not going to say anything more; I don't want to get into an internet insult war with you. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: How 'bout a little guitar now? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I'm not going to say anything more; I don't want to get into an internet insult war with you. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: How 'bout a little guitar now? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Sorry, I was just being a bit of a jackass and a grump :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Sorry, I was just being a bit of a jackass and a grump :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
I was just being a bit of a jackass
That makes two of us. :)
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Jim Crafton wrote:
I was just being a bit of a jackass
That makes two of us. :)
Yeah but I was being the bigger jackass... oh wait, I wanted to *avoid* doing this again... :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Judah Himango wrote:
If UI progress means more colors and more definition, higher resolutions, fine lines, smoother transitions, rounded corners, even 3d...then hell, I'm all for it. If I wasn't all for it, I'd just be a luddite in denial.
If UI progress was in the *entire* windowing system I'd be a lot more receptive to it. But it's not. For example, the standard toolbars you create, or buttons, or whatever will not look or behave like this. It's strictly app localized. So what you end up with is a mish-mash of apps that behave wildly different. What you end up with is X Windows[^]. If you stick with largely standard elements then *everybody* moves forward together, and your users learning efforts pay off for *all* the apps that they use, not just one or two. What Office is presenting is a (possibly) completely different learning curve, one that is quite different from all the other applications. And if we all jump on this bandwagon, then we all need to stop improving our applications and instead devote either time *re-implementing* this stuff, or money on buying components that do so, all for something of dubious value to the customer. If this were integrated into the OS/windowing system then we could just all use it, and og about our business. And I'd be a lot more amendable to that. I'm all for progress. I just think the progress needs to happen at the right place, and a whole bunch of apps re-implementing the wheel on this stuff doesn't seem like the right place. What it reminds me of is this: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html[^] ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Minor note: The new look will be in the entire OS. The replacement of the File menu with the "Logo Button" imitates the new Start button in Vista. Richard
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So has anyone here been brave enought to tackle creating an Office 12 Ribbon control yet? And if so, are you going to write a CP article on it? I've seen 1 from DevComponents[^] but no others so far but it isn't free ofcourse. Richard
The poor folks who copied the ribbon from O12 beta 1 have got some work to do, since the ribbon's real final design looks much different. :doh: --Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! Ericahist | NEW!! PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ