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In my experience: yes, but they need a lot of guidance from an experienced developer.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
diplomas with 4-5 years of experinece are no more undergraduates with less experience.............ne way if u r talking it terms of good programmer> How can u believe them because of these reasons - 4-5 years experience means they started there career near 2000-2001 no recall that period and the fight for software job that time.and it's basic reason that they must be lost some of there time in fighting for good job so u can reduce the no of exprience for a GOOD developer - doing coding is not well enough support for good developers.lot of people are doing coding but being a good developer requires basic knowledge of computer science ne way i don't want to hit a particular community but if u want to start up with some certain conditions..then consider my points also Vishal Swarnkar
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Bits of paper mean nothing. Test the candidate as you would any other candidate and see if he or she knows their stuff. I've seen guys with "3 years" experience who are complete and utter wastes of time, yet many of the best developers I know have no formal Comp Sci education. cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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pathakr wrote:
Are undergraduates but with some experience can prove to be good programmers?
I don't see why not. We've hired some exceptionally bright folks right out of school. They may need some direction in terms of process, but that can be said of anyone who may not have much real-world experience. /ravi My new year's resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Music | Articles | Freeware | Trips ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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diplomas with 4-5 years of experinece are no more undergraduates with less experience.............ne way if u r talking it terms of good programmer> How can u believe them because of these reasons - 4-5 years experience means they started there career near 2000-2001 no recall that period and the fight for software job that time.and it's basic reason that they must be lost some of there time in fighting for good job so u can reduce the no of exprience for a GOOD developer - doing coding is not well enough support for good developers.lot of people are doing coding but being a good developer requires basic knowledge of computer science ne way i don't want to hit a particular community but if u want to start up with some certain conditions..then consider my points also Vishal Swarnkar
With all those crazy abbreviations I can't understand what you are saying. So, I would add that communication skills is a very important thing to consider also.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My: Website | Blog
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pathakr wrote:
Are undergraduates but with some experience can prove to be good programmers?
There are no guarentees in any situation. A lack of degree, or an undergraduate degree does not guarentee failure, nor does a PhD guarentee success. It all depends on the candidate. I started off with a tech school certificate in business accounting, and I am now doing 3D graphics for an engineering company. Several times I have had to deal with a lack of degree. When I first transferred here to do UI work was only the first. When I was assigned my first control system work, and when I was assigned a 3D graphics task. In the case of the latter, the government rep demanded I be removed from the project for my lack of experience, my bosses convinced him that if I failed, they would hire someone specifically for the job, but that they didn't have anyone qualified and I had the drive to learn. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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With all those crazy abbreviations I can't understand what you are saying. So, I would add that communication skills is a very important thing to consider also.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My: Website | Blog
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
So, I would add that communication skills is a very important thing to consider also.
I joke about my hick high school english (and lack of English skills, even with it being my only language), but even I couldn't understand some of that message from context. Basic communication skills are a must, for the details, work has a tech writer to clean up my technology papers. ;) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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pathakr wrote:
Are undergraduates but with some experience can prove to be good programmers?
I'd say so! Want to give me a job this summer? Joel Holdsworth
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Bits of paper mean nothing. Test the candidate as you would any other candidate and see if he or she knows their stuff. I've seen guys with "3 years" experience who are complete and utter wastes of time, yet many of the best developers I know have no formal Comp Sci education. cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I have some college (actually it was one of those IT trade schools back in 1981), but no degree. I learned all the "important" mainframe languages like PL/1, RPG, and COBOL. I taught myself Pascal, and C++, and I'm currently teaching myself PHP, C#, and ASP.Net. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Depends on how you define "undergraduate" and "good developer". Are you an "undergraduate" if you hold a masters degree in philosophy or biology? How do you value a higher degree in a subject that is not directly applicable to software development? In most cases I consider myself an "undergraduate" but a "good developer". I agree with Chris: put the candidate under a test, or even an employment for a trial period, and then you'll know a bit more. IMHO degrees don't matter in this. I consider being a "good developer" a personal ability that you either have or you don't. It might be something you can learn to a certain point, but you can never become an "exceptional developer" without it. No degree can compensate for that. -- Roger
It's suppose to be hard, otherwise anybody could do it!
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They will need more management than more expericened engineers but on the other hand they haven't had as much time to get into bad habits. The tigress is here :-D
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pathakr wrote:
Are undergraduates but with some experience can prove to be good programmers?
There are no guarentees in any situation. A lack of degree, or an undergraduate degree does not guarentee failure, nor does a PhD guarentee success. It all depends on the candidate. I started off with a tech school certificate in business accounting, and I am now doing 3D graphics for an engineering company. Several times I have had to deal with a lack of degree. When I first transferred here to do UI work was only the first. When I was assigned my first control system work, and when I was assigned a 3D graphics task. In the case of the latter, the government rep demanded I be removed from the project for my lack of experience, my bosses convinced him that if I failed, they would hire someone specifically for the job, but that they didn't have anyone qualified and I had the drive to learn. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I've been programming for so long (25 years), that I have an automatic waiver where degree requirements are concerned. :) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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pathakr wrote:
Are undergraduates but with some experience can prove to be good programmers?
Yes. In my opinion, it really depends on the individual. You may want to consider the notion whether or not they are a fast learner. I do feel that at least a Bachelor's degree is a good start.
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You get what you pay. No amount of testing can help you judge the potential hire's development skills. You can only get an overview of his aptitude for programming. Also, when hiring always look for someone who can be an asset to your firm ... think outside the box. ########################## Taking pride in one's work is good as long as ego isn't a part of it. ##########################
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It's not the degree that matters, it's the experience. My first professional job was before I even joined college. One just has to have passion for the work and willingness to learn new tricks to be a good developer. Remember: Good developer is the one who a) uses right tools efficiently, b) works well with team and c) follows the process. Education and knowledge are completely different things. - Malhar
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Bits of paper mean nothing. Test the candidate as you would any other candidate and see if he or she knows their stuff. I've seen guys with "3 years" experience who are complete and utter wastes of time, yet many of the best developers I know have no formal Comp Sci education. cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
Bits of paper mean nothing.
Mud pie making is a must though, isn't it? Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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It's not the degree that matters, it's the experience. My first professional job was before I even joined college. One just has to have passion for the work and willingness to learn new tricks to be a good developer. Remember: Good developer is the one who a) uses right tools efficiently, b) works well with team and c) follows the process. Education and knowledge are completely different things. - Malhar
I think such kind of people are very rest less and always eager to learn as they always feel insecure. 4-5 years of experience in software development proves that. I think 1-2 years they are capable of understanding the process and can direct themselves easily and catch up other graduate candidates very soon. I have seen a swiss programmer who had just 12 years of education but just fantastic developer who in his teen years spent more on learning the soft knowledge. As chris says test the candidates and also his experience is important. row
