The software programmers profession
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OK ... I probably went a little extreme ... and "maybe" they deserve what they get ... but relatively speaking a programmer should get the same or more ... don't you think?
People get what the market demands.
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Yes I have and I hated it ... I like using my mind more than my muscle. Manual labor was easy ... I knew what I had to do the next day ... everyday ... but today I don't know what freakin bug will show up and when I will get to go home. If you are talking construction labor then I agree the risks are high but then again you don't have to go home and train yourself in the new(er) art of using a power drill ...
Pete Madden wrote:
but then again you don't have to go home and train yourself in the new(er) art of using a power drill ...
i never do any day-job programming work at home, nor am i asked to. and i think you overestimate the difficulty of mental work and underestimate the difficulty of physical work. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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People get what the market demands.
Define "Market" ?
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Define "Market" ?
The pool of customers interested in purchasing your products/services and the amount they're willing to pay (i.e. the value of those services to them).
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The pool of customers interested in purchasing your products/services and the amount they're willing to pay (i.e. the value of those services to them).
Let's say the product sold for $1 mil Team size: 5 developers, 1 PM, 2 other staff Now break it down and tell me how much do u think the developers should get and the PM should get
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Let's say the product sold for $1 mil Team size: 5 developers, 1 PM, 2 other staff Now break it down and tell me how much do u think the developers should get and the PM should get
they should get whatever the person who hired them decided they should get. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Let's say the product sold for $1 mil Team size: 5 developers, 1 PM, 2 other staff Now break it down and tell me how much do u think the developers should get and the PM should get
Not enough information. How much were selling costs? How much was the operations overhead minus pay (rent, utilities, etc...)? What equity positions did the developers have (if any) in the company? Who invested the money into the project and assumed the risk of that investment? What was the job market like for people in this field? It's not as simple as $1 million / 8.
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
Partly I think it is because it is still an immature industry and yet to become fully professionalised. Right now many developers are passionate about what they do. There aren't quite the hordes of programmers just doing it as a job like there are lawyers, doctors, accountants etc. Saying that there are plenty of doctors, lawyers, designers and accountants even (go figure) who are passionate about what they do and work outside of official hours. Lawyers read up on past cases for interest, doctors investigate new developments, designers work on their creative, personal projects and accountants... well I don't know what they do but I reckon there are a few. Oh and marketers and advertisers go out and get sozzled with clients after-hours. This will all change though. Development will become professionalised. We haven't even had a generation growing up with development as a real career choice. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Feed Henry!
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
Pete Madden wrote:
...I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ...
For an average programmer? That implies that programmers with a few years experience would net close to $200k per year. What company could afford that? How much would they have to inflate the cost of their goods to cover such salaries? Salary, and the cost of goods sold, has always been a vicious cycle ever since it started. One of these days, greed will cause the cycle to end, however.
"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed." - Mark Twain
"There is no death, only a change of worlds." - Native American Proverb
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Partly I think it is because it is still an immature industry and yet to become fully professionalised. Right now many developers are passionate about what they do. There aren't quite the hordes of programmers just doing it as a job like there are lawyers, doctors, accountants etc. Saying that there are plenty of doctors, lawyers, designers and accountants even (go figure) who are passionate about what they do and work outside of official hours. Lawyers read up on past cases for interest, doctors investigate new developments, designers work on their creative, personal projects and accountants... well I don't know what they do but I reckon there are a few. Oh and marketers and advertisers go out and get sozzled with clients after-hours. This will all change though. Development will become professionalised. We haven't even had a generation growing up with development as a real career choice. regards, Paul Watson Ireland Feed Henry!
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
We haven't even had a generation growing up with development as a real career choice.
As young as I am, 52, I was never exposed to programming in high school, but in my second year out of high school, 1973, I took my very first computer programming course at a community college. There were also private institutions to attend if you wanted a career in computer operations/programming as it existed back then. And I know people who chose that path back then. Has development come to replace fireman or policeman as what children want to grow up to be. No that hasn't happened and I don't think it will either. But I would say that at least a generation and possibly two have been exposed to the real career opportunities that development offers. :) Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
Doctors have highly specialized skills meriting higher pay. Lawyers have personalities employing debating/sales skills which help them justify higher prices. Sales and marketing are going to sell and market themselves for higher profit. Many programming projects can get by without guru coders or project leads running them. They may take a bit longer or cost a little more, but that's OK. In surgery or during trial, you get one chance and you'd better have someone good working for you. So demand for top quality isn't really there, and additionally programmers are usually in it for the big bucks. If they are comfortable, they're happy. BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wright -
Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
Pete Madden wrote:
Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well .
And I *should* be extremly tall, strong, handsome, and a talented musician as well ;P Sorry, no "shoulds" in real world.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
I think the 'worth' of any profession is very dependent on the point of view you choose to take. I could argue that people who operate excavators have more important jobs than I do, because without them I wouldn't have a building to work in. Of course, excavator operators need excavators, so the people who build excavators are the most important (and should be paid the most). Oh, but they need a plant to work in, so really it's the people who design excavator assembly plants that are more important. We should pay them more. But wait - they can't work on an empty stomach, so it's the cafeteria workers that are more important - they should get paid the most. You get the idea? Most salaries (including doctors, lawyers etc.) are driven by market demand. Doctors, lawyers, accountants etc. make more than many occupations because there is a demand for them. It's got little to do with their education level. It's got tonnes to do with the amount of time and effort it takes to become a doctor or accountant or lawyer. The time and effort required limits the number of people entering these professions which enhances their salaries when the demand for them is high. Want to increase your salary? Become an expert in a field that's in demand. Cheers, Drew.
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I think the 'worth' of any profession is very dependent on the point of view you choose to take. I could argue that people who operate excavators have more important jobs than I do, because without them I wouldn't have a building to work in. Of course, excavator operators need excavators, so the people who build excavators are the most important (and should be paid the most). Oh, but they need a plant to work in, so really it's the people who design excavator assembly plants that are more important. We should pay them more. But wait - they can't work on an empty stomach, so it's the cafeteria workers that are more important - they should get paid the most. You get the idea? Most salaries (including doctors, lawyers etc.) are driven by market demand. Doctors, lawyers, accountants etc. make more than many occupations because there is a demand for them. It's got little to do with their education level. It's got tonnes to do with the amount of time and effort it takes to become a doctor or accountant or lawyer. The time and effort required limits the number of people entering these professions which enhances their salaries when the demand for them is high. Want to increase your salary? Become an expert in a field that's in demand. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
Become an expert in a field
The best farmers are all outstanding in their fields. ;P Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
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Drew Stainton wrote:
Become an expert in a field
The best farmers are all outstanding in their fields. ;P Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
Chris Meech wrote:
The best farmers are all outstanding in their fields.
They also spend a lot of time standing out in their fields Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
Drew Stainton wrote:
Become an expert in a field
The best farmers are all outstanding in their fields. ;P Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
$150K+ they usually make ... Where did you get that figure?
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Drew Stainton wrote:
Become an expert in a field
The best farmers are all outstanding in their fields. ;P Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When I want privacy, I'll close the bathroom door. [Stan Shannon] GOOD DAY FOR: Moonlighting, as porn star Savanna Samson has launched her own wine label. Her Sogno Uno, an Italian red, received an "outstanding" 90 to 91 score from influential wine critic Robert Parker. "I wanted to do something my parents could be proud of," she said. (Reuters in CNNMoney.com)
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Have you seen how much money people squeeze out of their professions? ... Compare that to ours and I will say we get an F grade in that category... For the amount of time we spend on learning new(er) technologies all the time and then using our creative thinking EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of the day I think an average programmer's salary should be at least $150K - $175K ... If you think that is more then compare it with other professions ... are lawyers worth the $150K+ they usually make ... most lawyers printout the facts and read that in court confidently ... which the defendent himself would be able to do except that he isn't in the right state of mind at that moment. The lawyer has taken advantage of the defendent. Similarly Marketing and Sales professionals are also creative thinking people who make a ton of money compared to our measealey salaries (again this is compared to our efforts) Think for a couple minutes and you will find more of such professions... The worst comes when (software) Project Managers and alike do all the paperwork (well...they call it "Project Planning") and other secretary level tasks and get paid double of what the real programmers working "under" him gets paid. Technology/Engineering is a profession that thrives on invention and creativity ... anyone who works hard in such demanding profession should be paid extremely well ... maybe lesser than the "real" Doctors but close.
You might want to consider contracting. $150k is only $75 an hour, not exactly a sky high rate. Christopher Duncan Practical Strategy Consulting Author of The Career Programmer Unite the Tribes
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they should get whatever the person who hired them decided they should get. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
they should get whatever the person who hired them decided they should get.
Totally wrong ... who are they to decide your worth? Only you can put a price on your worth ... think about it. Of course all this should be ironed out before accepting the job offer.