Why would a school want to weed out programers?
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I have went back to school, now after a few decades and decided to start at the bottom so to speak with the college entry level programming class. I have had several conversations with the instructor and his statement "I am hear to weed out wantabe programmers". Am I so far behind the times that this makes no sense to me at all. Has anyone else seen this attitude out there? :-D
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Russell Morris wrote:
damn well better be the best of the best!
But are they? My contention is that weeder classes simply get rid of the kids that don't learn by the prescribed methods the system teaches. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to be brilliant programmers, engineers, whatever. It simply means that the educational system has failed them, not that they have failed. (OK, yes, barring the obvious slackers and bozos). The people that do succeed at passing the weeder classes primarily succeed at learning how to pass the tests, which isn't necessarily the same thing at developing an expertise in ones subject. I have only to recall the programmers I've interviewed and worked with, fresh out of college (including UCSD, David), who couldn't write "Hello World" if their life depended on it. And obviously, THEY passed the weeder classes. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Marc Clifton wrote:
My contention is that weeder classes simply get rid of the kids that don't learn by the prescribed methods the system teaches.
People who really want to be programmers will find a way to do so. Becoming a good programmer or anything is at least 50% sheer interest and ability to work hard, an educational "system" is not for everyone, it's designed specifically to meet the needs of the mediocre. And as long as it meets those needs it's not failed in it's objective. It's reasonable I think, to weed out those that are not suited for whatever environment they are learning in, it just brings down the rest. Saying an educational system failed someone is more often than not a euphamistic way of saying that person was lazy or un-interested.
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Instead of schools teaching you that you're an uneducatable dumb f*** and will never succeed at your dreams, maybe they ought to actually try teaching kids to be successful. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
I think the whole point was missed here, the instructor probably meant "wannabe" as in someone who think's it's a "cool" idea but has little real interest in the subject and no work ethic. I knew a guy who really wanted to be a computer repair guy, but he was hopeless at it. He really had convinced himself that it was the career for him, but he kept screwing up the most basic tasks that had been shown to him repeatedly with as much encouragement as possible. I had to sit him down over coffee and say "this really isn't the right career for you" which was a nice way of firing him and giving him the truth. Sometimes the airy fairy happy speak is not really doing a person a favor at all. If you think that a seasoned professor or instructor can't point out the people who really shouldn't even bother being in the class in the first week and will not be right nearly every time I have a nice bridge you might want to buy.
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Yes. At Cal Poly, the weeding was in the form of Calculus, Quantum Physics (special rel - gah! I don't care about your damn cat!), and Statics, and, for the less fortunate EEs and MEs, Dynamics, and Thermodynamics. :wtf: I suppose it helps them to conserve resources for those students who are both interested and capable, but I have used Calculus exactly once since graduating, and that was to determine how much bark to order for a taco-shaped planter in my parent's yard. :laugh: Jon Sagara Look at him. He runs like a Welshman. Doesn't he run like a Welshman? Doesn't he? I think he runs like a Welshman. My Site | My Blog | My Articles
You can't go wrong getting an education at a University whose initials are CPU (Cal Poly Univ)...although Pomona (my Alma Mater) is a little better that SLO ;)... Roger Wright graduated from Pomona too... Steve
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machman1 wrote:
"I am hear to weed out wantabe programmers". Am I so far behind the times that this makes no sense to me at all.
See, he's just sore about how the Real Programmers weeded him out, and now that he's stuck teaching he's taking it out on his students... :rolleyes:
Now taking suggestions for the next release of CPhog...
he does have one programmers attribute...he can't spell worth sh#$ :doh: Steve
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You can't go wrong getting an education at a University whose initials are CPU (Cal Poly Univ)...although Pomona (my Alma Mater) is a little better that SLO ;)... Roger Wright graduated from Pomona too... Steve
Steve Mayfield wrote (paraphrased):
Cal Poly Pomona (my Alma Mater)
I see your Schwarz is as big as mine... :suss:
Steve Mayfield wrote:
although Pomona (my Alma Mater) is a little better that SLO
:laugh: Oh man. That will always be a point of contention. My sister likes to point out that we are #1 because we are first aphabetically: California Polytechnic State University, SLO vs California State Polytechnic University, Pomona So there. ;P:) Jon Sagara Look at him. He runs like a Welshman. Doesn't he run like a Welshman? Doesn't he? I think he runs like a Welshman. My Site | My Blog | My Articles
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he does have one programmers attribute...he can't spell worth sh#$ :doh: Steve
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Yes. At Cal Poly, the weeding was in the form of Calculus, Quantum Physics (special rel - gah! I don't care about your damn cat!), and Statics, and, for the less fortunate EEs and MEs, Dynamics, and Thermodynamics. :wtf: I suppose it helps them to conserve resources for those students who are both interested and capable, but I have used Calculus exactly once since graduating, and that was to determine how much bark to order for a taco-shaped planter in my parent's yard. :laugh: Jon Sagara Look at him. He runs like a Welshman. Doesn't he run like a Welshman? Doesn't he? I think he runs like a Welshman. My Site | My Blog | My Articles
That's funny. I use the math from school frequently and ... it's *NEVER* work-related. One of my clients is a huge quaried stone company and I help the ladies that run the store calculate all sorts of stuff. I've written up their formula sheets so they can approximate volumes for flower beds, waterfall stones, fountain stones all sorts of stuff. I even calculated the axel limit on their new delivery truck because they didn't have a clue and were about to crack the axel if I hadn't stopped them. Then there's all the stuff I do on a daily basis. The other day I was trying to work out world domination. I was going to flood New York and had to use Calculus to approximate how much of the moon's gravitation I'd need. Of course this lead to the explosive charge I'd need to place on the moon to alter it's orbit. Then I had to do some stuff for JPL on the back of a napkin as they were having trouble saving the world from my planned destruction. Oh yeah! Man! If I hadn't learned all that crap in school there's no way I'd be able to take over the world, run linux or water my sod. Thermodynamics was a hoot. That year of physics was just priceless. I think the only thing school taught me was how to cope with stress and the answer to that is the same regardless. Fight stress with exercise, fight fatigue with caffeine, fight bugs with VS 2005 and well... Yeah, school was a lot of weed eating. Compilers and Database Theory were weed eaters at my place of edukashun the math and science weren't really. I think most prof's figured if you couldn't hang with the math and science then you were on a fast track to an art major. But Database Theory and Compilers were two known evils. It was generally believed that datastructures was a satanic rite... I loved datastructures though. I especially loved implementing all those sorts in VB 6 and watching my "Big-O" turn into "Oh-S_ _ t that's taking a while!". I loved school. If I get a chance I'm going back for a masters in mathematics I think math is just *very* cool and I want my kids to be all over the math stuff. - Rex
The enemy's gate is down. :cool: Welcome to CP in your language. Post the unicode version in My CP Blog[^] now. People w
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I have went back to school, now after a few decades and decided to start at the bottom so to speak with the college entry level programming class. I have had several conversations with the instructor and his statement "I am hear to weed out wantabe programmers". Am I so far behind the times that this makes no sense to me at all. Has anyone else seen this attitude out there? :-D
I've seen it, and I agree with it. A lot of people read about the money programmers make and decide to learn programming in order to collect the fees. That's the wrong motivation for a programmer (or any other technocrat), and the market has bred a host of poor programmers motivated by only the level of pay. To be a good programmer you have to love coding, not money. Only then are you deserving of the large paychecks that come with the skill. VB and other scripting-languages-on-steroids encourage the not-so-skilled to attempt tasks they are not really equipped to perform well, and that hurts all of us - programmers and users alike. We get marginal products that are inefficient and costly in resources, lousy support, and high TCO. We all lose when people who are not truly called to the profession enter the job market, and it's a teacher's obligation to help direct his/her students into career paths that are consistent with the student's abilities. Entry level classes are far too easy; they should be designed to cull out the losers early, and redirect them into fields where they stand a better chance of excelling. "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9 -- modified at 2:54 Tuesday 25th April, 2006
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
VB6 is now obsolete. So there's no similar alternative for not-so-talented programmer-wannabes
You are a cruel, cruel man. :-D
But correct? :rolleyes: The tigress is here :-D
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Any good technical college will have a number of weed-out courses. People hate them, but they're entirely necessary. "If you can't do this work well, and understand how to do it well, this shouldn't be your profession." Think about having the folks that design bridges, planes, and buildings - they damn well better be the best of the best! The stakes are certainly less risky for programming, but the point nevertheless stands.
Russell Morris wrote:
The stakes are certainly less risky for programming, but the point nevertheless stands.
I beg to differ, computer programs are FAR more risky than bridge builders, etc. While a bridge may fall down, it will likely only kill a few hundred people max. But imagine if a computer program accidently tagged thousands of innocent americans as terrorists or something. Or if the computer system running all of our airplanes became infected with a virus causing all planes to go haywire. It would be tough for a bridge builder to do that kind of damage if they tried. ;)
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Marc Clifton wrote:
That doesn't mean that they aren't going to be brilliant programmers, engineers, whatever.
Worse yet, it means that (for instance) most of the brilliant botanists who are also good-enough programmers to write quality botany software are gonna be those who've taught themselves. :sigh:
Now taking suggestions for the next release of CPhog...
First of all, there are many excellent programmers who have little to no college whatsoever. A few of the world's most famous and wealthy programmers have no degree. A self-righteous professor may attempt to get rid of people thru a intentionally rigorous course, but that doesn't mean that student will never be a professional programmer. I have worked at consulting companies where the best programmers were not even IT majors, rather English majors, religion majors, and the most common in my experience is art/music majors. Many universities are teaching programming as part of an overall business-based IT program, where the student isn't taught to just code low level stuff, but also to be innovative, entrepreneurial and to understand the big picture. Personally, I'd much rather have an IT major over a traditional CS major, especially in today's business world. So to the person who started this thread, don't worry about that professor. And don't let anybody "weed" you out if you enjoy this line of work and feel you can be productive, innovative and continuously improve yourself. Good luck!
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Russell Morris wrote:
damn well better be the best of the best!
But are they? My contention is that weeder classes simply get rid of the kids that don't learn by the prescribed methods the system teaches. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to be brilliant programmers, engineers, whatever. It simply means that the educational system has failed them, not that they have failed. (OK, yes, barring the obvious slackers and bozos). The people that do succeed at passing the weeder classes primarily succeed at learning how to pass the tests, which isn't necessarily the same thing at developing an expertise in ones subject. I have only to recall the programmers I've interviewed and worked with, fresh out of college (including UCSD, David), who couldn't write "Hello World" if their life depended on it. And obviously, THEY passed the weeder classes. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
So what would be served by trying to teach them more difficult material using that same method?
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I have went back to school, now after a few decades and decided to start at the bottom so to speak with the college entry level programming class. I have had several conversations with the instructor and his statement "I am hear to weed out wantabe programmers". Am I so far behind the times that this makes no sense to me at all. Has anyone else seen this attitude out there? :-D
I'm a game design and development student, which is a VERY popular program. However not everyone in the program has the aptitude to complete it. Having a class or two which weed out the students who should not be there is good for everyone. It saves them LOTS of money first off (my total tuition is somewhere in the area of $82,000 BEFORE intrest) In addition the students who more rightfully (however you say that nicely) should be in the class learn more without the hinderence of bad questions. In addition the reputation of the school is maintained.
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Russell Morris wrote:
damn well better be the best of the best!
But are they? My contention is that weeder classes simply get rid of the kids that don't learn by the prescribed methods the system teaches. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to be brilliant programmers, engineers, whatever. It simply means that the educational system has failed them, not that they have failed. (OK, yes, barring the obvious slackers and bozos). The people that do succeed at passing the weeder classes primarily succeed at learning how to pass the tests, which isn't necessarily the same thing at developing an expertise in ones subject. I have only to recall the programmers I've interviewed and worked with, fresh out of college (including UCSD, David), who couldn't write "Hello World" if their life depended on it. And obviously, THEY passed the weeder classes. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
The problem is that the school systems are struggling with cheating. The person who has mastered the system either is book smark, a truly capable person, or has cheated. It's when it comes down to the real world that the true 'weeder' courses exist, as colleagues find out your degree isn't worth the paper its printed on. My two cents.
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I have went back to school, now after a few decades and decided to start at the bottom so to speak with the college entry level programming class. I have had several conversations with the instructor and his statement "I am hear to weed out wantabe programmers". Am I so far behind the times that this makes no sense to me at all. Has anyone else seen this attitude out there? :-D
I have not had problems with this type of attitude, though my teachers don't really give a rip. On one end of the argument, I understand why they are there to, "weed aout the proggrammers" in the sense that nobody likes a bug in their programs. On the other hand, gaining experiance is the procces of making a better programmer, other than book knowelege. As far as his argument goes is pretty much frivilous in that the amount of programmers is dwindling. Microsoft is also having a shortage of programmers. I would tell him if he is there to weed out the wannabe programmers is the reason why computer programming is so popular:rolleyes:. Then again, I have no idea if this is the schools attitude our it is the teachers.
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I have went back to school, now after a few decades and decided to start at the bottom so to speak with the college entry level programming class. I have had several conversations with the instructor and his statement "I am hear to weed out wantabe programmers". Am I so far behind the times that this makes no sense to me at all. Has anyone else seen this attitude out there? :-D
I went through a traditional CS program over 10 years ago. CS112 Intro to Structured Programming and CS212 Advanced Structural Programming were brutal with my professor. His philosophy was that it was better to find out that you're not cut out for the rigors of a CS degree quickly rather than hit the wall when you got to CS345 (Data Structures I) in the Junior year. He figured he was doing the people who couldn't hack the intro class a favor by saving them time and money. In both the weeder classes a third to maybe half the class stayed on to take the final with only about a fourth of the class passing. -- modified at 10:03 Wednesday 26th April, 2006
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I have went back to school, now after a few decades and decided to start at the bottom so to speak with the college entry level programming class. I have had several conversations with the instructor and his statement "I am hear to weed out wantabe programmers". Am I so far behind the times that this makes no sense to me at all. Has anyone else seen this attitude out there? :-D