Using a credit check to determine eligibility for a programming job?
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Brycej wrote:
I wonder if they will take blood samples next and exclude those whom have genetic markers that demonstrate a liklihood for serious illness?
Or for two people to have children. While currently this is considered invasion of privacy, I believe that eventually, maybe in 20 to 50 years, the cost benefit to the corporation will overrule the privacy laws. It'll start first as a voluntary thing--give a blood sample to reduce your insurance rates. After all, employees will be carrying more and more of the burden of the insurance, even as insurance companies raise rates and have record profits each year. As to credit reports, well, again, your credit report will be as available as your shoe size eventually. And just as your credit report influences your purchase capability and interest rate (raising it if you have bad credit, ironically, so that you are more at risk at defaulting), so it will eventually affect other aspects of your life, including insurance, tuition rates at private schools, and of course your risk of committing terrorist acts. Maybe I've been reading too much science fiction lately. Oh wait, that's not it. I've been reading that book John Simmon's recommended, The Constitution In Exile. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
Marc Clifton wrote:
give a blood sample to reduce your insurance rates
Didn't I read some time ago (perhaps years ago) that when AIDS became a top story that Americans (and no doubt others) became afraid and employees were forced to declare themselves as AIDS free by giving blood samples ? And of course if you have AIDS - no chance of insurance and no chance of employment. Is that still the same now in America ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
your risk of committing terrorist acts
I am pretty certain that not everybody who is incarserated in that notorious post-afgan war Cuban American Military prison camp is a terrorist. But we will never know unless America does the decent thing and test these individuals in an open court.
Marc Clifton wrote:
too much science fiction
Many things seen in episodes of Star Trek have become science fact.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
give a blood sample to reduce your insurance rates
Didn't I read some time ago (perhaps years ago) that when AIDS became a top story that Americans (and no doubt others) became afraid and employees were forced to declare themselves as AIDS free by giving blood samples ? And of course if you have AIDS - no chance of insurance and no chance of employment. Is that still the same now in America ?
Marc Clifton wrote:
your risk of committing terrorist acts
I am pretty certain that not everybody who is incarserated in that notorious post-afgan war Cuban American Military prison camp is a terrorist. But we will never know unless America does the decent thing and test these individuals in an open court.
Marc Clifton wrote:
too much science fiction
Many things seen in episodes of Star Trek have become science fact.
Abbottra wrote:
that Americans (and no doubt others) became afraid
Yes, IIRC, there was concern over this.
Abbottra wrote:
and employees were forced to declare themselves as AIDS free by giving blood samples ?
I'm not aware of this, except where it's vital, daycare workers, medical workers, etc.
Abbottra wrote:
Is that still the same now in America ?
I'm not sure. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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Has anyone ever had this presented to them before? As part of a recent interview at a large Redmond, Washington based software company interview, I was asked to allow them to review my credit history. It was stated to me (both verbally and in writing) that the outcome of this would be used to aide in the determination of my eligibility. So, I wonder... am I alone in finding this practice a bit intrusive, a violation of privacy, and unrelated to the job of being a programmer? What happens to good programmers that have fallen on bad times for various reasons (divorce, ill health, etc)... is it truly a good practice to discredit them? When my auto insurance company decided to adopt this practice, I left them for another company that reviews drivers based on their merits... is our only defense against such practice simply to not apply to companies that adopt such practices? It seemed a rather odd practice so I thought I'd ask... Thanks, -Brycej
I can't iamgine this happening in the UK unless you're going for quite a high security clearance! The tigress is here :-D
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Brycej wrote:
So, I wonder... am I alone in finding this practice a bit intrusive, a violation of privacy, and unrelated to the job of being a programmer?
I guess it depends on who you are working for, I have had far far worse intrusions because of who I work for.
Brycej wrote:
What happens to good programmers that have fallen on bad times for various reasons (divorce, ill health, etc)... is it truly a good practice to discredit them?
I guess that becomes a deal with what is done with the information. I have had the divorce, two of them in fact. The first I took all the combined debt except for two very specific debts (which made the statement of why those two stand out, but that is another story) and it nearly bancrupted me. In fact at the time of the divorce I had a school loan in default and a dozen hungry lawyers & debt collectors scrambling for blood. I slapped them up the head with the "threat" of bancrupcy. "if" they would all playball and help me work out aggressive, but reasonable payments, no bancrupcy. "if" any of them did not want to work, we take it the hard way. We worked it out, no problem. Second divorce, I split it 50/50, which she refused to pay anything with a shared debt attached trying to drive my credit into the toilet (or lower). I faught it, aggressively (for once in that relationship). I spent two months in the hospital while starting my 2nd divorce, complete with reduced pay for short term disability and medical bills (luckily insurance paid "most" -- but 2 months is a long time for hospitalization, and recovery after outside of the hospital required care for a while too and insurances do not like home-care). I have continued health issues due to damaged internal organs from the cause of that hospitalization. I am fully upfront and honest with my employer, they knew the issues then, they know the issues now, so checking my credit had no big surprises. They ask what I am doing to repair it, and like any other interview question, hiding it is not a solution, so your answer counts a great deal. In my case there could never have been hiding it, if they want to know what I had for breakfast, they can and will. Being upfront and honest about how I am taking care of things means they do not have to, which saves me having to deal with such exams from one end or the other, or quitting (none of which is very appealing). And I am still doing the job. There is a lot of
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
From Hagakure:
Now there's a book you don't see quoted every day... :) Christopher Duncan Practical Strategy Consulting Author of The Career Programmer Unite the Tribes
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Has anyone ever had this presented to them before? As part of a recent interview at a large Redmond, Washington based software company interview, I was asked to allow them to review my credit history. It was stated to me (both verbally and in writing) that the outcome of this would be used to aide in the determination of my eligibility. So, I wonder... am I alone in finding this practice a bit intrusive, a violation of privacy, and unrelated to the job of being a programmer? What happens to good programmers that have fallen on bad times for various reasons (divorce, ill health, etc)... is it truly a good practice to discredit them? When my auto insurance company decided to adopt this practice, I left them for another company that reviews drivers based on their merits... is our only defense against such practice simply to not apply to companies that adopt such practices? It seemed a rather odd practice so I thought I'd ask... Thanks, -Brycej
This is not an unusual practice, and companies have been doing it for years. Their justification is that someone with poor credit is likely to be irresponsible / untrustworthy / more likely to be desperate enough to cheat the company. If someone told me that to my face, I'd do my best to excuse myself politely, as I consider it insulting. But that's just me. However, beyond my personal knee jerk reaction, the other thing to keep in mind is that interviews are a two way street, and you can learn much about a company by the way it conducts its hiring process. The essential question is this - if that's the kind of anal, distrustful people they are, is it really an environment you feel you'll be happy working in? Christopher Duncan Practical Strategy Consulting Author of The Career Programmer Unite the Tribes
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
From Hagakure:
Now there's a book you don't see quoted every day... :) Christopher Duncan Practical Strategy Consulting Author of The Career Programmer Unite the Tribes
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Now there's a book you don't see quoted every day...
actually, it is less common to find a quote from it that was not found in Ghost Dog. The quotes from Ghost Dog are better known and used here and there. “There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. By doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.” of course there is also go rin no sho and bushido, or I could always start quoting Tée-wahn or Hopi, I have an eclectic collection here. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Has anyone ever had this presented to them before? As part of a recent interview at a large Redmond, Washington based software company interview, I was asked to allow them to review my credit history. It was stated to me (both verbally and in writing) that the outcome of this would be used to aide in the determination of my eligibility. So, I wonder... am I alone in finding this practice a bit intrusive, a violation of privacy, and unrelated to the job of being a programmer? What happens to good programmers that have fallen on bad times for various reasons (divorce, ill health, etc)... is it truly a good practice to discredit them? When my auto insurance company decided to adopt this practice, I left them for another company that reviews drivers based on their merits... is our only defense against such practice simply to not apply to companies that adopt such practices? It seemed a rather odd practice so I thought I'd ask... Thanks, -Brycej
If any employer over here tried that for anything short of restricted public ofice, I would verbally decline and send a written statement to their shareholders informing them why their policy prevented me fom working for them. I'll add here that I do not think it is acceptable to force people through this even if they are would be working with financial information. The excuse "x% of corporate fraud is committed by employees with bad credit history" is nothing more than discrimination. It is illegal to discriminate based on sex, age, race, etc, and I don't see credit as being any different. Using Jeffry as an example, not everyone with a score on a piece of paper is equal. I have to pay extortionate amounts of car insurance because my sex and age are automatically blacklisted at the hands of a few, but at least I am able to prove myself to them every 12 months and have my rate improved. It's all part of the "guilty until proven innocent" society we live in, and I think we have to accept that as inevitable now. :(
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler | Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
"Prejudices, biases, and no real thought in action. Nothing useful ever comes of it." - Jeremy Falcon -
If any employer over here tried that for anything short of restricted public ofice, I would verbally decline and send a written statement to their shareholders informing them why their policy prevented me fom working for them. I'll add here that I do not think it is acceptable to force people through this even if they are would be working with financial information. The excuse "x% of corporate fraud is committed by employees with bad credit history" is nothing more than discrimination. It is illegal to discriminate based on sex, age, race, etc, and I don't see credit as being any different. Using Jeffry as an example, not everyone with a score on a piece of paper is equal. I have to pay extortionate amounts of car insurance because my sex and age are automatically blacklisted at the hands of a few, but at least I am able to prove myself to them every 12 months and have my rate improved. It's all part of the "guilty until proven innocent" society we live in, and I think we have to accept that as inevitable now. :(
Ðavid Wulff Audioscrobbler | Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
"Prejudices, biases, and no real thought in action. Nothing useful ever comes of it." - Jeremy FalconWith the amount of TV and radio adverts for car insurance, it probably won't be long before these companies will be paying you to insure you :-D (kinda sponsorship)
David Wulff wrote:
"guilty until proven innocent"
A foreign practice but I suppose it will become English law eventually !!!!
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Has anyone ever had this presented to them before? As part of a recent interview at a large Redmond, Washington based software company interview, I was asked to allow them to review my credit history. It was stated to me (both verbally and in writing) that the outcome of this would be used to aide in the determination of my eligibility. So, I wonder... am I alone in finding this practice a bit intrusive, a violation of privacy, and unrelated to the job of being a programmer? What happens to good programmers that have fallen on bad times for various reasons (divorce, ill health, etc)... is it truly a good practice to discredit them? When my auto insurance company decided to adopt this practice, I left them for another company that reviews drivers based on their merits... is our only defense against such practice simply to not apply to companies that adopt such practices? It seemed a rather odd practice so I thought I'd ask... Thanks, -Brycej
Brycej wrote:
When my auto insurance company decided to adopt this practice, I left them for another company that reviews drivers based on their merits... is our only defense against such practice simply to not apply to companies that adopt such practices?
If you don’t like an employers pre-employment screening process there are other companies, can’t find one you like. There is always consulting. Personally I have had to undergo much more thorough pre-employment screening, albeit not for a programmers position.
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Has anyone ever had this presented to them before? As part of a recent interview at a large Redmond, Washington based software company interview, I was asked to allow them to review my credit history. It was stated to me (both verbally and in writing) that the outcome of this would be used to aide in the determination of my eligibility. So, I wonder... am I alone in finding this practice a bit intrusive, a violation of privacy, and unrelated to the job of being a programmer? What happens to good programmers that have fallen on bad times for various reasons (divorce, ill health, etc)... is it truly a good practice to discredit them? When my auto insurance company decided to adopt this practice, I left them for another company that reviews drivers based on their merits... is our only defense against such practice simply to not apply to companies that adopt such practices? It seemed a rather odd practice so I thought I'd ask... Thanks, -Brycej
Credit history is part of security clearance background checks. Are they defense contractor? ------- sig starts "Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
Now there's a book you don't see quoted every day...
actually, it is less common to find a quote from it that was not found in Ghost Dog. The quotes from Ghost Dog are better known and used here and there. “There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. By doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you will still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to all things.” of course there is also go rin no sho and bushido, or I could always start quoting Tée-wahn or Hopi, I have an eclectic collection here. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Yeah, forgot about Ghost Dog. We appear to have similar interests in reading... ;) Christopher Duncan Practical Strategy Consulting Author of The Career Programmer Unite the Tribes
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Brycej wrote:
I wonder if they will take blood samples next and exclude those whom have genetic markers that demonstrate a liklihood for serious illness?
Or for two people to have children. While currently this is considered invasion of privacy, I believe that eventually, maybe in 20 to 50 years, the cost benefit to the corporation will overrule the privacy laws. It'll start first as a voluntary thing--give a blood sample to reduce your insurance rates. After all, employees will be carrying more and more of the burden of the insurance, even as insurance companies raise rates and have record profits each year. As to credit reports, well, again, your credit report will be as available as your shoe size eventually. And just as your credit report influences your purchase capability and interest rate (raising it if you have bad credit, ironically, so that you are more at risk at defaulting), so it will eventually affect other aspects of your life, including insurance, tuition rates at private schools, and of course your risk of committing terrorist acts. Maybe I've been reading too much science fiction lately. Oh wait, that's not it. I've been reading that book John Simmon's recommended, The Constitution In Exile. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
It is not the insurance companies fault that employees must carry a large burden. In all states, insurance rates are regulated to a point where companies have a limit of how low or how high a rate is. With the rising rate of health costs, companies must raise their rates to insure that they have the capacity to pay all of the claims that could occur. Yes, insurance companies always seem to make a profit but a lot has to do with losses of that year. If insureds make fewer claims, the more money the insurance company recieves. In most cases, especially in health insurance, one major accident will cost more than the patient pays to the insurance company. Many times, with health insurance the insurance companies can only make a profit off investment income and not from money left over after claims. This left over money isn't really the insurance companies either because it has to go into a policy holders surplus account. If the company goes under, the company is still responsible for claims that might have happened before they went down and new claims when loss has taken place during a period of coverage. This surplus is used to pay for the claims reps and for the claims that still must be payed off. So if insurance companies are making money it is because they have a quality insureds that tend not to have loss. Brett A. Whittington Application Developer
