Is this fair? [modified]
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I couldn't agree more! I seem to be the only one on our team who bungs comments into the code and I'm certainly the only one who writes documentation without the kind of force that would move mountains! If you're working for the kind of company where the hoarding of knowledge is the norm then I'd say run for the hills! Nothing good can come from that. Rob Manderson I'm working on a version for Visual Lisp++ My blog http://blogs.wdevs.com/ultramaroon/[^]
Rob Manderson wrote:
I seem to be the only one on our team who bungs comments into the code and I'm certainly the only one who writes documentation without the kind of force that would move mountains!
Me too. Of course, I've been around a bit whilst most other people have been at the same company for 10+ years. It is an uphill struggle to try and turn their attitudes around. Although, there reasons are more due to laziness and not-seeing the point rather than trying to keep the knowledge to themselves. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
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VuNic wrote:
You cannot separate "coding" and "code sharing" when you work for a company.
That should be true of all coding. Whenever you code anything you should think "am I likely to want to use something like this again?" If you are, then the code should be written to be as reusable as possible. I'd much rather spend a day writing reusable code than an hour hacking together something that wouldn't be reusable. The kind of people who think "why should I do more work to make other people's lives easier" are the kind of people you probably don't want to be in your programming team anyway! There's nothing more frustrating than having to solve the same problem time and time again (or seeing people constantly re-invent the wheel) -- Help me! I'm turning into a grapefruit! Buzzwords!
benjymous wrote:
then the code should be written to be as reusable as possible.
Yup, that's what I'm trying to do now. But while exploring the techinque, I dont think about "resuability". Once I'm sure about how it works, I'll try making it resuable.
--[V]--
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
O`mert wrote:
In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows.
Critical to the company ? In that case, it's lax of your boss to allow this situation to exist.
O`mert wrote:
So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior.
Obviously, they expect you to leave, and so they want you to pass on your knowledge before you do. I would expect any job I left to spend some time making sure that I wasn't taking any critical knowledge with me ( that is, passing it on ).
O`mert wrote:
I do not to give training for free.
Unless he's asking you to give it at home, he's not asking you to give it for free. He's directing you how to spend the time they pay you to spend at work.
O`mert wrote:
I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own.
Do you mean that you've learned in your own time ? If the situation is that you've taken your own time to learn something that was vital to your work, and now you are thinking of leaving, then I can see why you'd feel upset. However, it remains that you've contributed something to your company, for which you were paid, and you owe it to them to tell them how it works. It's their fault that they've let this situation come about, I would admit. You have two options. 1 - quit. 2 - do what they ask. I'll add one thing - no matter how bad you may think they have treated you, revenge may seem like a great option now, but I reckon you'd do better to leave a good name, not burn any bridges, and not create a company who will advertise thier displeasure in you to the local marketplace, to the people who you may one day be asking for work. It also feels good to know you've given your best. Don't let yourself be stolen from, but if you need to stand up for yourself, do it visibly so there can be no doubt as to your claim and your motives. Otherwise, the person you stand a chance of hurting is yourself. And finally, if you want to work in development, you should expect to put your own time into learning new technologies, that's just part of the game as far as I can see. By the way, welcome to code project :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
O`mert wrote:
In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows
O`mert wrote:
I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own.
O`mert wrote:
they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees
You have been hired because of some skills that you know. You also spend some of your out of work time improving what you know. Are you telling us that you spent none of your time at work gaining experience in this technology? I feel that if your employer is asking you to provide training on material that you were expected to know in order to perform your job, then it is a fair and reasonable expectation. More to the point I hope you give the assignment your best effort. I have never been a fan of people who try to keep knowledge or skill to themselves. If I know something that can make others perform better/faster/etc then I try to share the information/technique. That is part of being a team player. If they were asking you to teach a subject that you have some expertise in, but that was not related to your work, then I could see your dilemna. Oh by the way. What would Code Project be like if all of the authors felt the way you do. -- modified at 7:46 Thursday 25th May, 2006
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
Believe me, being the only one with the "special knowledge" is not in the company's best interest. What if you're run over by an elephant, or your turban catches fire and burns your head completely off your shoulders? The company is left with a a bunch of junior programmers that can't pick up the slack. If they want you to train other employees during work hours, then do it, and stop whining like a little girl.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
What happens to the company and others there is you leave/are injured etc.? You have a responsibility to them. If you did not get help then remember that you are treating others the way you were treated. Should this attitude continue? Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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Believe me, being the only one with the "special knowledge" is not in the company's best interest. What if you're run over by an elephant, or your turban catches fire and burns your head completely off your shoulders? The company is left with a a bunch of junior programmers that can't pick up the slack. If they want you to train other employees during work hours, then do it, and stop whining like a little girl.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
What if you're run over by an elephant, or your turban catches fire and burns your head completely off your shoulders?
As subtle as ever John, but you're right :) The tigress is here :-D
:) Some people never see the message because of the delivery, but hey, that's their own mental handicap. :)
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
It has ben answered, but it has to be said again: Yes.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
O`mert wrote:
What do you think is this fair?
Yes it is fair!
O`mert wrote:
I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free.
No. You get the salary in order to bring benefits to the company. Providing the training brings benefits to the company.
O`mert wrote:
I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply.
Tough!
O`mert wrote:
What do you think is this fair?
Is it fair for us to read this whiney post? I think you really don't understand the nature of business.
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." --Charles Babbage (1791-1871) My: Website | Blog
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First off, life is rarely fair. And a good job too, I'd hate to think all the bad things happen to me because I deserve it :-D Secondly, Is this critical technology documented? If not, why not? If you are looking for better options outside your company, then your boss is doing the right thing to protect his business. If you have the 'technologoy' documented, then your boss might not be forced to take this action. A good team member, is always willing to share knowledge with his team-mates - even if that knowledge was earned the hard way. There is nothing big and clever about making somebody else do it the hard way, if you can make it easier for them. So whilst you may not think it is fair, I think it sounds very reasonable and that there are good lessons for you to learn in the process. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
My views exactly! Documentation is the way to go when you are leaving a job - after that, you may be required to help the person taking over your particular role. As part of this process, some training may be required. In many ways, you should be thinking about your future, and forget about the past. After all, you don't know who'll be your next interviewer, or what 'reputation' you are being given in the industry. The world is getting smaller and one must be careful. It is always better to be seen in the right way, than to have a 'bad' reputation that will be difficult to amend! A positive attitude is always the best policy in this line of work! All the best for your new endeavours! Paul Mu
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
Yes, I think that this is very fair -- and I wouldn't be suprised if taking on this duty is actually a requirement of your contract. At my workplace, there is language in the contract that says something along the lines of: "Your duties may shift from your job description over time as deemed necessary by the management team". In fact, CodeProject wouldn't exist weren't it for people doing for free what you are now getting paid for. What would be unfair would be for your company to make you redundant after you trained another employee who they were paying less (although obviously it would be their loss from a brain drain perspective). Timothy http://www.anatone.net
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
I think its fair simply because they've PAIDED you to learn it and produce a product. While you were never sent on any formal training and you had to learn it yourself without any help... that was training for two reasons 1) you were allowed to learn persumable at your own pace and probably to make mistakes along the way and 2) they paid you during that period of time. If you'd prefer not to share that knowledge then I think its only fair that your employeer ask for their money back during the period of time that you were training yourself.
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
O`mert wrote:
In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows.
Funnily, I will be starting a project of system study and documentation for exactly such a situation - where the person who has developed the system is not happy to share anything about the project. So we are there to do reverse engineering and document everything.
O`mert wrote:
I feel like my privacy is hampered
Privacy is hampered ? :sigh: - are they asking you to train them at your home?
O`mert wrote:
I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own.
Why did you do it? - to get a job - you got it, end of story.
O`mert wrote:
I too did not get any help from the people who know it
I am sure you cursed those people at that time. So if you behave in the same way, whats the difference between you and them? In summary, it is not only fair, it is sound business practice on part of your employer. What *might* have been unfair would be if they planned to fire you after the training was complete. Shreekar http://shreekarishere.blogspot.com[^]
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
My take would be that if you learnt this technology on company time then they have already paid you for it and it is fair that you share your knowledge. Share the web sites, name of books or other material that you used so that the other employees go through your struggle and value the knowledge in the same way. Dont give the answers; guide them instead. If you learnt this on your own time then you should ask for a raise and get it. Tell the company that it is distracting having people sitting beside you. Being asked to share your knowledge could be because the company may see a risk if you leave or cannot report to work or are on vacation. This is fair on part of the company. In this industry my personal experience is that only by sharing knowledge can we all grow. I wouldnt have survived without reading all that free code and ideas on the internet. I know its hurts to give away something that you struggled to learn yourself. If your managers are understanding then maybe you should discuss your concerns with them. But dont presume that they will go along with you. They may point out how you have benefitted from the company. The last option I guess is to sell yourself to the highest bidder. Not necessarily a good option because you would have gained some recognition and a new employer may not give you that.
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
Its annoys the hell out me that everything is secret. Don't help anybody else! Don't share knowledge! Be selfish! Why should I help some-one if I don't get paid! Why share knowledge that would help everybody when I can keep it secret so hopefully I can make $10.00 JUST FOR ME! Should I resus the poor person! Hey Mate! You want an ambulance ? Cost you $100.00! Hey Kid, want to know what 2 plus 2 is? Give me five dollars and I'll tell you! Make a dollar! Screw your work mate! Make another dollar! Let them suffer!
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O`mert wrote:
In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows.
Critical to the company ? In that case, it's lax of your boss to allow this situation to exist.
O`mert wrote:
So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior.
Obviously, they expect you to leave, and so they want you to pass on your knowledge before you do. I would expect any job I left to spend some time making sure that I wasn't taking any critical knowledge with me ( that is, passing it on ).
O`mert wrote:
I do not to give training for free.
Unless he's asking you to give it at home, he's not asking you to give it for free. He's directing you how to spend the time they pay you to spend at work.
O`mert wrote:
I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own.
Do you mean that you've learned in your own time ? If the situation is that you've taken your own time to learn something that was vital to your work, and now you are thinking of leaving, then I can see why you'd feel upset. However, it remains that you've contributed something to your company, for which you were paid, and you owe it to them to tell them how it works. It's their fault that they've let this situation come about, I would admit. You have two options. 1 - quit. 2 - do what they ask. I'll add one thing - no matter how bad you may think they have treated you, revenge may seem like a great option now, but I reckon you'd do better to leave a good name, not burn any bridges, and not create a company who will advertise thier displeasure in you to the local marketplace, to the people who you may one day be asking for work. It also feels good to know you've given your best. Don't let yourself be stolen from, but if you need to stand up for yourself, do it visibly so there can be no doubt as to your claim and your motives. Otherwise, the person you stand a chance of hurting is yourself. And finally, if you want to work in development, you should expect to put your own time into learning new technologies, that's just part of the game as far as I can see. By the way, welcome to code project :-) Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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I have been a silent observer of Codeproject. But I was forced to get the membership today to post this post here. Reason is In my company, I know some critical technology which nobody knows. Now they came to know that I am trying for some better options. So all of a sudden they have asked me give full training to some fellow employees which are very junior. Even they made them to sit just beside me. I feel like my privacy is hampered and for god sake I wish to tell my boss that I am getting this salary for the work I do not to give training for free. I have taken so much hard work to learn it by my own. I too did not get any help from the people who know it before.. Why I may be giving it so cheaply. What do you think is this fair? Olmert
My previous employer took me and my programming knowledge for granted. My role was a Management Information Developer (i.e. working with figures and reports etc) but they knew I could program and used me to bypass their expensive IT department. I waited until they wanted me to build something really important then refused to do it unless I got a promotion and payrise (which actually only brought me in line with the other two MI Devs anyway). I didn't just refuse point blank but pointed out that they were taking advantage of me, had saved themselves several thousand pounds and that I was paid less than the other two. I got promoted and a got a £3K payrise :-D. (I now work for a great software company as a programmer)
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I would like to add, on top of the 2 excellent previous answer, that it is a chance for you, not a burden. That means they finally realize how skilled and precious you are! Capitalize on that, ask a rise, a new office, a new parking spot, a personal and young blonde secretary! Go on man! :laugh:
It *may* be a chance. But it's much more likely that by having a junior, less expensive employee being "able" to do the work, they remove the risk of being put over a barrel by the orignal poster of this thread when he decides to expect a return on his effort.;P Whether that is fair or not is a mute point. Maybe you shouldn't have bothered learning this important technology in the first place then your employer wouldn't have gotten one over on you? Then you'd be happy right?;) Personally I'd hand over the training. Being the only "expert" is a double-edged sword. Right now you have the knowledge and are happy with that. When you see the next great thing and want to move on you can't because your employer needs you in that role. You take your choice. I have been a developer and a manager, right now I'm back as a developer and loving it. Here we use a group blog, if we find something new out or learn a new trick we share it. We are secure that we are working for a good company and like our colleagues. Perhaps the answer to your problem is..... MOVE to an employer you like and is aligned with your ideals. However from the little you have said I feel you are the sort of guy who likes being the only guy who knows because you have gone to so much trouble to learn it. Working with people like that is incredibly hard and I don't envy the poor junior who your employer has forced upon you. Good luck anyway my friend.
