Undocumented? You mean ILLEGAL
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espier is the Code Project version of a village idiot. If you throw him crumbs by responding to his posts, he will hang around the forums much as a village idiot hangs around hoping for handouts. If you ignore him, then, like the idiot, he will move on to the next village.
Heh, i just get a kick out of the fact that, AFAIK, espeir has no idea what i think regarding our immigration policy, border security, etc... but is terribly concerned that i might use a "softer" word to describe the problem. :rolleyes:
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Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but were supposed to leave after a short visit?
They're "illegal aliens" because they are the opposite of "legal aliens". They are not legally allowed to be here.
Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here?
They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
Shog9 wrote:
I suspect this is why the topic is even on the table - there's too much riding on how we change laws and policy towards the various sub-groups of "illegal aliens" to allow discussion to continue with such a vague definition.
"Undocumented worker" is even more vague. It does not address whether they are here legally, whether their undocumented status is a result of the violation of a law or a bureaucratic screwup or what documents they specifically lack. The term "illegal alien" specifically states that an alien is present in this county contrary to the law.
Shog9 wrote:
Abortion, like most forms of murder, is a choice. The danger here is that you become too addicted to the semantics, and allow your opinion of an action to be entirely shaped by the words used to describe it. At that point, the person reporting the action has you by the short and curlies. And yeah, i'm as vulnerable to this as the next guy - but blaming my weakness on those who exploit it is just admitting defeat.
O...K... I'm saying this is along the same lines. Being present in this country illegally is, by definition, illegal. It is therefore perfectly appropriate and descriptive to call someone that fits into that category an "illegal alien". By using a euphemism like "undocumented worker", you're removing the illegality of the action from the term in order to make it more palatable. Just like abortion is called "choice" by the left. When you want people to take your position, it's easier to do so by using a more palatable term because it removes the "bad" from it by making it nondescript.
Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
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Heh, i just get a kick out of the fact that, AFAIK, espeir has no idea what i think regarding our immigration policy, border security, etc... but is terribly concerned that i might use a "softer" word to describe the problem. :rolleyes:
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I don't claim to know your position on it. In fact I'm not 100% sure about my position on various aspects of it. I just disagree that that the term "illegal alien" is vague and that it needs to be replaced by another term (which I think is much more vague) that removes the suggestion that it is a crime.
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Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
I honestly don't think there is such a situation. I was only addressing it for academic reasons.
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
Shouldn't 'criminal' imply intent to commit a criminal act?
It should, but doesn't. Law and justice are not the same thing. Ignorance is no excuse, and even people who are kidnapped and brought to this country are sent back sometimes. Sure, this is cold and heartless - and so is life. I'm not against having a heart for people, but we don't have to be pansies about it. It is possible to care about people and still be a man. This is a court of law, young man, not a court of justice. - Oliver Wendell Holmes
If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality. If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA. Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
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Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
See here: http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/[^] (Scan the list of visas - you can't legally work without some sort of work visa, but there are other ways of being here legally, at least on a temporary basis)
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If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality. If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA. Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality.
Per our constitution, they would be US citizens. Their dual-nationality would be based on their home country.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA.
We currently don't deport people all that often, but I honestly don't know what happens in those situations. The parents probably get to stay.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Yes. America grants political amnesty to many people who apply for it. The US does not grant amnesty for financial reasons, though (like their home country is too poor). In fact (as my understanding goes) if a Cuban national makes it onto American soil, they are immediately granted amnesty and residency and are therefore not illegal aliens.
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Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
They may just be here for vacation. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality.
Per our constitution, they would be US citizens. Their dual-nationality would be based on their home country.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA.
We currently don't deport people all that often, but I honestly don't know what happens in those situations. The parents probably get to stay.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Yes. America grants political amnesty to many people who apply for it. The US does not grant amnesty for financial reasons, though (like their home country is too poor). In fact (as my understanding goes) if a Cuban national makes it onto American soil, they are immediately granted amnesty and residency and are therefore not illegal aliens.
espeir wrote:
The parents probably get to stay.
As legal or illegal ?
espeir wrote:
if a Cuban national makes it onto American soil, they are immediately granted amnesty and residency and are therefore not illegal aliens
The moment they arrive do you have a rule which says something like "upon your arrival you must immediately request asylum or leave this country", or is it automatic asylum. But I recall that if a Cuban, on a "boat", is in international waters between Cuba and Florida, they can be returned to Cuba.
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If illegal aliens, as in partner/married, were to have children born in the USA, would that child be a citizen of the USA or a citizen of wherever the parents came from, or perhaps dual nationality. If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA. Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA.
I'm not sure what happens to the children. I do know people who have had kids in the US, but were deported themselves - so just having kids does not make you a US citizen. Of course, those I knew took their children with them when they were sent back. I don't know if they could have chosen to leave the kids or not.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Yes. Even illegal immigrants who commit a felony, and are incarcerated, cannot be deported after their release to countries such as Veitnam, China, Cuba, or any country where they could be killed or tortured when they get there. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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Rant: Apparently the latest buzz word needed to pass the political correctness exam in the US is “undocumented.” We suddenly have undocumented immigrants, undocumented workers, undocumented students, ad et al puke. As a developer, I’ve seen this little trick tried on end users: “That isn’t actually a bug, it is an undocumented feature.” Who is stupid enough to buy this crap? If a person takes someone else’s car without asking are they then the “undocumented owner?” If someone kidnaps a child, and raises it as their own, are they then the “undocumented parent?” Let's just call it what it is: illegal! Disclaimer: I have nothing against Mexicans, or even against Mexicans coming to the US. I have friends who are Mexican. My brother is married to a Mexican. I do, however, despise political correctness – and the wimpiness it equates to. Just say what you have to say, and quit trying to add water to our vocabulary. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
political correctness
I don't think there is a government anywhere on this planet that will not conceil, hide or say differently, the things they actually mean. X| I never understood why. Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't matter if you don't. :beer:
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espeir wrote:
The parents probably get to stay.
As legal or illegal ?
espeir wrote:
if a Cuban national makes it onto American soil, they are immediately granted amnesty and residency and are therefore not illegal aliens
The moment they arrive do you have a rule which says something like "upon your arrival you must immediately request asylum or leave this country", or is it automatic asylum. But I recall that if a Cuban, on a "boat", is in international waters between Cuba and Florida, they can be returned to Cuba.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
As legal or illegal ?
Technically they would be illegal unless granted residency.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The moment they arrive do you have a rule which says something like "upon your arrival you must immediately request asylum or leave this country", or is it automatic asylum. But I recall that if a Cuban, on a "boat", is in international waters between Cuba and Florida, they can be returned to Cuba.
I'm not 100% sure, but my understanding is that once they make it to shore they're good to go. The Coast Guard tries mighty hard to make sure they don't make it.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
If those illegal alien parents were arrested and deported to wherever they came from, would the child(ren) of such illegals be also deported or would they be made "ward of court" (or whatever the American name is) forbidding that child to be deported as that child was born in the USA.
I'm not sure what happens to the children. I do know people who have had kids in the US, but were deported themselves - so just having kids does not make you a US citizen. Of course, those I knew took their children with them when they were sent back. I don't know if they could have chosen to leave the kids or not.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Does your legal system have opt-out clauses similar to those in Europe where deporting illegal aliens to their own country if their own country has a regime that may be detrimental to life and limb.
Yes. Even illegal immigrants who commit a felony, and are incarcerated, cannot be deported after their release to countries such as Veitnam, China, Cuba, or any country where they could be killed or tortured when they get there. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
EricDV wrote:
Of course, those I knew took their children with them when they were sent back
So America would permit deporting a child of an illegal alien even if that child was born in the USA.
EricDV wrote:
cannot be deported after their release to countries such as Veitnam, China, Cuba, or any country where they could be killed or tortured when they get there.
Would that therefore make then legal aliens or are they "in limbo-land"
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espeir wrote:
The parents probably get to stay.
As legal or illegal ?
espeir wrote:
if a Cuban national makes it onto American soil, they are immediately granted amnesty and residency and are therefore not illegal aliens
The moment they arrive do you have a rule which says something like "upon your arrival you must immediately request asylum or leave this country", or is it automatic asylum. But I recall that if a Cuban, on a "boat", is in international waters between Cuba and Florida, they can be returned to Cuba.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The moment they arrive do you have a rule which says something like "upon your arrival you must immediately request asylum or leave this country", or is it automatic asylum.
No, it is not automatic asylum. They are locked in Federal prison for a period of time (I don't recall the length). They have to go through a bunch of legal hoops, and eventually they are released...but they don't just get to run off into the sunset when they get on dry land. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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EricDV wrote:
political correctness
I don't think there is a government anywhere on this planet that will not conceil, hide or say differently, the things they actually mean. X| I never understood why. Coulda, woulda, shoulda doesn't matter if you don't. :beer:
:jig:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politically_correct[^] ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The moment they arrive do you have a rule which says something like "upon your arrival you must immediately request asylum or leave this country", or is it automatic asylum.
No, it is not automatic asylum. They are locked in Federal prison for a period of time (I don't recall the length). They have to go through a bunch of legal hoops, and eventually they are released...but they don't just get to run off into the sunset when they get on dry land. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
But they are granted automatic asylum, aren't they?
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EricDV wrote:
Of course, those I knew took their children with them when they were sent back
So America would permit deporting a child of an illegal alien even if that child was born in the USA.
EricDV wrote:
cannot be deported after their release to countries such as Veitnam, China, Cuba, or any country where they could be killed or tortured when they get there.
Would that therefore make then legal aliens or are they "in limbo-land"
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
So America would permit deporting a child of an illegal alien even if that child was born in the USA.
I didn't say that. What I said was that they parents can be deported - this much I know. About the children, I'm not sure. I think the children are citizens, even if the parents got here illegally - but like I said, I don't know. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
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EricDV wrote:
Of course, those I knew took their children with them when they were sent back
So America would permit deporting a child of an illegal alien even if that child was born in the USA.
EricDV wrote:
cannot be deported after their release to countries such as Veitnam, China, Cuba, or any country where they could be killed or tortured when they get there.
Would that therefore make then legal aliens or are they "in limbo-land"
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
So America would permit deporting a child of an illegal alien even if that child was born in the USA.
Mexicans actually run across the border when 9 months pregnant so that their baby can plop out on American soil. It's not like their parents and they live here for years first.
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Espeir, Excuse this query from a Brit, but I am a little confused.
espeir wrote:
Shog9 wrote: What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here? They are NOT illegal aliens if they are legally here.
I don't understand, pleae explain... If a person is not an illegal alien why is it then that such a person is not legally allowed to work?
Example of someone who is here legally, but is not allowed to work: My office mate is here on a work visa, when his wife arrives, she will be here as dependent of HIS visa, but SHE is not allowed to work herself.
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Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but were supposed to leave after a short visit?
Illegal
Shog9 wrote:
What about the ones who came here legally, but can't legally work here?
If they DO work here: Illegal
Shog9 wrote:
The danger here is that you become too addicted to the semantics
It is about the law - not just semantics (unless maybe much of law is really just semantic). When people break the law, we can be sympathetic with them - but that doesn't mean they didn't break the law. Using watered down terms like "undocumented" is an attempt to make the presence of illegals more acceptable to those who are easily influenced. ---------- Some problems are so complex that you have to be highly intelligent and well informed just to be undecided about them. - Laurence J. Peters
Have you ever wandered onto someone else's property without their permission? If so, they you were there ILLEGALLY! You are a trespasser! A criminal! Why aren't you in jail???