Public smoking becomes illegal in Toronto starting tomorrow
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Not exactly the same thing. Kind of an apples and oranges comparison. A pubs business is predominantly selling beer and food to customers. Customers going into the pub are going into the pub for expressly that purpose. I dont go to a pub for a smoke. However smokers, rightly or wrongly (I'm not debating it), feel they have the right to impose the impact of their habit on others and on the staff that work in the establishment. Also the bartenders and waitresses in the pubs also deserve a safe working environment. You could argue that they know the risks going into the job, but so do miners and construction workers. Yet it is expected that the owners (and government) ensure that these workers still have as safe an environment to work in given the risks. Smoke in the workplace is a completely avoidable risk. And to answer your question... Ban alcohol in pubs or restaurants.. No (it is their business) Ban alcohol in public sporting events.. hell yes. Same premise. Cheers, David -- modified at 12:50 Tuesday 30th May, 2006
Orcrist wrote:
Not exactly the same thing. Kind of an apples and oranges comparison.
True and all your points seem valid but it still worries me. :~ Many of the folks involved with these kinds of bans are like weeds. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. Maybe they take the next step and ban cigarettes entirely based purely on health issues. Then nothing is safe. IMO we tread a slippery slope. "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." - Martin Mull
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Ontario gets my 5 vote :)
--Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! Ericahist | PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ
Would be nice if California cities would follow suit.
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It's impossible since most cops aren't standing next to smokers whever they're done with their cigarettes. Besides, a lot of smokers flick the butts from their car windows. I guess they can't stand the sight and smell of cigarettes in their car's ash tray.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I guess they can't stand the sight and smell of cigarettes in their car's ash tray
Or in my case, they don't care about the 100,000+ people living in a 600,000 acre National Forest with plenty of dry brush. PJC
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It’s last call for smokers in Ontario[^] - Smitha
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It's great to be alive at the dawn of this emerging Globally Enlightened Society. Now, if I can just get them to make everything that I personally dislike illegal, it'll be a free and just society for all. Well, you know, as long as everyone understands that what I want is more important than anyone else... Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Know someone who desperately needs to get a clue? Visit www.DownloadAClue.com and send them one!
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Would be nice if California cities would follow suit.
:confused: It's been illegal to smoke indoors in CA for years.
--Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! Ericahist | PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ
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It's great to be alive at the dawn of this emerging Globally Enlightened Society. Now, if I can just get them to make everything that I personally dislike illegal, it'll be a free and just society for all. Well, you know, as long as everyone understands that what I want is more important than anyone else... Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Know someone who desperately needs to get a clue? Visit www.DownloadAClue.com and send them one!
The difference between what you want and what people want in general is the difference between despotism and Democracy.
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Why not ban all disposal containers as well? People throw paper, cups, wrappers, and all kinds of other things on the ground. Since we can't enforce the litter laws, we should nip the problem in the bud and do away with anything else that could become trash. Same logic, isn't it? BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven WrightYou can't ban everything. Most people would get yelled at by others if they threw something obvious, like a soda can, on the ground. Unfortunately, a cigarette is much smaller and too common a problem to be put in the same category. Besides, the ban on cigarettes is mainly for the air we breath and the smell of our clothes. The added benefit of a cleaner landscape is secondary. Not quite the same logic after all.
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I forget where, but remember hearing about one town that levied a tax on disposable containers at fast food places. The money collected went to pay for litter collection surrounding the restaurants. Seems like a good idea to me... Beats a ban, but encourages restaurants to find alternate ways of serving their customers.
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That's a smart idea.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I guess they can't stand the sight and smell of cigarettes in their car's ash tray
Or in my case, they don't care about the 100,000+ people living in a 600,000 acre National Forest with plenty of dry brush. PJC
Ouch! :(
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The difference between what you want and what people want in general is the difference between despotism and Democracy.
Being an American I can't speak intelligently on the Canadian system of government, but American is not a democracy. In fact, it works very hard to make sure that democracy never happens. Why? Because democracy means "majority rules." America works very hard to protect the rights of minorities (not just racial minorities, but minorities of every conceivable type). In other words, in truly democratic system, minorities are, by definition, screwed. As for "what people want", how do you define that? Smokers want to be able to smoke. Non smokers don't want to be subjected to smoke. So who makes the rules? Neither. Elected officials do. Unless they break the law (and get caught, and actually get prosecuted) these officials are not accountable to anyone from the moment they take office. They're free to promise one thing on the campaign and then do completely the opposite once they take office. It's legal, and not at all uncommon. The only things that they respond to are ego, money, and their ability to get re-elected. "The will of the people" isn't a frequent flyer on their radar, unless it falls into one of these three categories. For the record, I don't smoke, and would prefer not to inhale it from someone else. However, in my youth I smoked three packs a day, so I can see both sides to this issue. My concern is that the current trend in my own country is leaning more and more towards a "zero tolerance" (i.e. intolerant) state of mind and a legislation happy environment in which to enforce these convictions. If you can stir up a little public sentiment on an issue that might effect election day, then you, too, have a good chance of making ensuring that "everything I dislike should be illegal." What people want in general is not a factor. Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Know someone who desperately needs to get a clue? Visit www.DownloadAClue.com and send them one!
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No! :-D He almost quit smoking! Cheers Smitha
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Smitha Vijayan wrote:
He almost quit smoking!
Is that anything like the infamous "almost pregnant?" _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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:confused: It's been illegal to smoke indoors in CA for years.
--Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! Ericahist | PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ
Michael Dunn wrote:
It's been illegal to smoke indoors in CA for years.
Indoors as in Public-indoors, right? When I was in Mt View, people used to smoke in the streets all the time. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. -
Being an American I can't speak intelligently on the Canadian system of government, but American is not a democracy. In fact, it works very hard to make sure that democracy never happens. Why? Because democracy means "majority rules." America works very hard to protect the rights of minorities (not just racial minorities, but minorities of every conceivable type). In other words, in truly democratic system, minorities are, by definition, screwed. As for "what people want", how do you define that? Smokers want to be able to smoke. Non smokers don't want to be subjected to smoke. So who makes the rules? Neither. Elected officials do. Unless they break the law (and get caught, and actually get prosecuted) these officials are not accountable to anyone from the moment they take office. They're free to promise one thing on the campaign and then do completely the opposite once they take office. It's legal, and not at all uncommon. The only things that they respond to are ego, money, and their ability to get re-elected. "The will of the people" isn't a frequent flyer on their radar, unless it falls into one of these three categories. For the record, I don't smoke, and would prefer not to inhale it from someone else. However, in my youth I smoked three packs a day, so I can see both sides to this issue. My concern is that the current trend in my own country is leaning more and more towards a "zero tolerance" (i.e. intolerant) state of mind and a legislation happy environment in which to enforce these convictions. If you can stir up a little public sentiment on an issue that might effect election day, then you, too, have a good chance of making ensuring that "everything I dislike should be illegal." What people want in general is not a factor. Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Know someone who desperately needs to get a clue? Visit www.DownloadAClue.com and send them one!
Christopher Duncan wrote:
In other words, in truly democratic system, minorities are, by definition, screwed.
Interesting point, and one I hadn't really thought of before. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. -
Being an American I can't speak intelligently on the Canadian system of government, but American is not a democracy. In fact, it works very hard to make sure that democracy never happens. Why? Because democracy means "majority rules." America works very hard to protect the rights of minorities (not just racial minorities, but minorities of every conceivable type). In other words, in truly democratic system, minorities are, by definition, screwed. As for "what people want", how do you define that? Smokers want to be able to smoke. Non smokers don't want to be subjected to smoke. So who makes the rules? Neither. Elected officials do. Unless they break the law (and get caught, and actually get prosecuted) these officials are not accountable to anyone from the moment they take office. They're free to promise one thing on the campaign and then do completely the opposite once they take office. It's legal, and not at all uncommon. The only things that they respond to are ego, money, and their ability to get re-elected. "The will of the people" isn't a frequent flyer on their radar, unless it falls into one of these three categories. For the record, I don't smoke, and would prefer not to inhale it from someone else. However, in my youth I smoked three packs a day, so I can see both sides to this issue. My concern is that the current trend in my own country is leaning more and more towards a "zero tolerance" (i.e. intolerant) state of mind and a legislation happy environment in which to enforce these convictions. If you can stir up a little public sentiment on an issue that might effect election day, then you, too, have a good chance of making ensuring that "everything I dislike should be illegal." What people want in general is not a factor. Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes Know someone who desperately needs to get a clue? Visit www.DownloadAClue.com and send them one!
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Being an American I can't speak intelligently on the Canadian system of government, but American is not a democracy. In fact, it works very hard to make sure that democracy never happens. Why? Because democracy means "majority rules." America works very hard to protect the rights of minorities (not just racial minorities, but minorities of every conceivable type). In other words, in truly democratic system, minorities are, by definition, screwed.
Not true. The US is a Representative Democracy, in that we choose our leaders who are beholden to us at the ballot box. They tend not to do things terribly unpopular as it results in their fall from power. Lower levels of government also allow for referendums (direct votes and pure democracy).
Christopher Duncan wrote:
As for "what people want", how do you define that? Smokers want to be able to smoke. Non smokers don't want to be subjected to smoke. So who makes the rules?
The majority. Competing interests are frequent and the will of the minority does not universally trump the will of the majority simply by the guise of "minority rights". If neither got to decide whether smoking could be banned, then there would be neither smoking nor smoking bans which logically does not make sense. When two interests clash, only one side wins and that's the majority (the composition of elected officials represents the voting-inclined in the general public).
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Elected officials do. Unless they break the law (and get caught, and actually get prosecuted) these officials are not accountable to anyone from the moment they take office. They're free to promise one thing on the campaign and then do completely the opposite once they take office. It's legal, and not at all uncommon. The only things that they respond to are ego, money, and their ability to get re-elected. "The will of the people" isn't a frequent flyer on their radar, unless it falls into one of these three categories.
Yes, but elected official are beholden to the voting public. Whether you choose to accept it or not, people usually think in black and white. Liberals are strongly aligned with other liberals in the beliefs as are conservatives. It's been that way since federalism and anti-federalism. The claim that our representatives ignore the will of the people is basically a cheap argument t
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
In other words, in truly democratic system, minorities are, by definition, screwed.
Interesting point, and one I hadn't really thought of before. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications.Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Interesting point
But invalid in practice. Since its birth, the United States has actually expanded rights to all forms of minorities via legislative (i.e. popular majority) means. When there are competing interests such as smokers who want to smoke and those who don't want to breathe their smoke, the only reasonable solution is to allow the majority to rule on who wins. Otherwise, by definition, the majority would be screwed.
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You can't ban everything. Most people would get yelled at by others if they threw something obvious, like a soda can, on the ground. Unfortunately, a cigarette is much smaller and too common a problem to be put in the same category. Besides, the ban on cigarettes is mainly for the air we breath and the smell of our clothes. The added benefit of a cleaner landscape is secondary. Not quite the same logic after all.
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Besides, the ban on cigarettes is mainly for the air we breath and the smell of our clothes.
Not always. For health insurance reasons the Federal government banned smoking on all federal work areas. For fire hazard reasons much of the southwest national forests have a ban on smoking (even in your car! so watch it when you drive through) as well as camp-fires and camp-stoves. Last time I was on the trail before they closed the national forests here recently (because people "must" ignore the smoking ban -- it is their "right" to ignore it), I was hopping on the trail when a ranger came up and reminded me as I loaded up my pack that there was no camp fires and no smoking. I pull out my trail supplies and showed him, I told him I am probably the only hiker in the county that actually knows how to cold-camp. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) -- modified at 14:17 Tuesday 30th May, 2006
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Besides, the ban on cigarettes is mainly for the air we breath and the smell of our clothes.
Not always. For health insurance reasons the Federal government banned smoking on all federal work areas. For fire hazard reasons much of the southwest national forests have a ban on smoking (even in your car! so watch it when you drive through) as well as camp-fires and camp-stoves. Last time I was on the trail before they closed the national forests here recently (because people "must" ignore the smoking ban -- it is their "right" to ignore it), I was hopping on the trail when a ranger came up and reminded me as I loaded up my pack that there was no camp fires and no smoking. I pull out my trail supplies and showed him, I told him I am probably the only hiker in the county that actually knows how to cold-camp. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) -- modified at 14:17 Tuesday 30th May, 2006
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I am probably the only hiker in the county that actually knows how to cold-camp.
Just make sure you have the right company to heat up. ;)
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Michael Dunn wrote:
It's been illegal to smoke indoors in CA for years.
Indoors as in Public-indoors, right? When I was in Mt View, people used to smoke in the streets all the time. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications.Right, indoors like any enclosed space, such as bars/restaurants.
--Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! Ericahist | PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I am probably the only hiker in the county that actually knows how to cold-camp.
Just make sure you have the right company to heat up. ;)
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Just make sure you have the right company to heat up.
Nope, I hike alone. Not the safest, but not much choice. It's hike alone or don't hike. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
I guess they can't stand the sight and smell of cigarettes in their car's ash tray
Or in my case, they don't care about the 100,000+ people living in a 600,000 acre National Forest with plenty of dry brush. PJC
Paul Conrad wrote:
Or in my case, they don't care about the 100,000+ people living in a 600,000 acre National Forest with plenty of dry brush.
Ditto! though I don't think we have 100,000+ people here... at least half that much with all the mountain communities combined, but maybe, just maybe near that. They had to close the national forest here because people refuse to follow the ban. If someone can't play by the rules, no one can play. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)