Whither Borland C++?
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VC6 was a terrible C++ implimentation. VC2005 is an excellent one, in fact, it's been great since 2002. Sure, the IDE support is not up to the C# editor, but who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
but who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft ?
I do think Borland headed downhill a bit and then couldn't gather steam again... Still I don't think simply competing with MS is justification to not buy (or buy) any product. Ultimately I think the war between AMD and Intel has brought both processor lines to much higher levels than Intel would have done without competition. nVidia got lax with ATI always accepting a 2nd seat on graphics which slowed their development down, but the war to win back the position has posted the largest jumps in technology from both ATI and nVidia -- something I don't think either would have done without the competition. I think MS could handle the competition, AND the public would benefit from the push for technologies at the same time. win win. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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VC6 was a terrible C++ implimentation. VC2005 is an excellent one, in fact, it's been great since 2002. Sure, the IDE support is not up to the C# editor, but who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft ?
What about Google? That will be interesting. But it ain't gonna happen
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Christian Graus wrote:
who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft ?
What about Google? That will be interesting. But it ain't gonna happen
Google is different, they stepped in and did a great job of something MS does very badly. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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In February, Borland announced it was selling the IDE unit. It appears no purchase has been made, does anyone know anything different? (I think it would be fun to work on it. I loved Turbo C and would love to make Borland C++ be as slick as that product was [I last used Borland C++ extensively with 4.5 and it was horribly buggy. I briefly used 5.01? and it seemed improved, but the project was cancelled before I discovered anything more.]) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Christian Graus wrote:
but who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft ?
I do think Borland headed downhill a bit and then couldn't gather steam again... Still I don't think simply competing with MS is justification to not buy (or buy) any product. Ultimately I think the war between AMD and Intel has brought both processor lines to much higher levels than Intel would have done without competition. nVidia got lax with ATI always accepting a 2nd seat on graphics which slowed their development down, but the war to win back the position has posted the largest jumps in technology from both ATI and nVidia -- something I don't think either would have done without the competition. I think MS could handle the competition, AND the public would benefit from the push for technologies at the same time. win win. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I meant simply that I would never choose to compete with MS on one of their core product lines.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I think MS could handle the competition, AND the public would benefit from the push for technologies at the same time. win win.
Yeah, the only losers would be the people that MS would, over time, crush into the dirt. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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I meant simply that I would never choose to compete with MS on one of their core product lines.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I think MS could handle the competition, AND the public would benefit from the push for technologies at the same time. win win.
Yeah, the only losers would be the people that MS would, over time, crush into the dirt. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Yeah, the only losers would be the people that MS would, over time, crush into the dirt.
Once the same was said of Intel. When Motorola made the decision to not compete against Intel in certain markets it was believed that no one could ever compete against the big Intel Corp. AMD was even laughed at once upon a time. Now Intel has had to force themselves to try harder, it looks like they will pull ahead again, they have the budget to force their way back to the top, but they did loose the top spot which woke even the Intel machine up to the realities of life. You snooze, you loose. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yeah, the only losers would be the people that MS would, over time, crush into the dirt.
Once the same was said of Intel. When Motorola made the decision to not compete against Intel in certain markets it was believed that no one could ever compete against the big Intel Corp. AMD was even laughed at once upon a time. Now Intel has had to force themselves to try harder, it looks like they will pull ahead again, they have the budget to force their way back to the top, but they did loose the top spot which woke even the Intel machine up to the realities of life. You snooze, you loose. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Yeah, that's true. Different situation tho. Last time I looked at hte Borland tools, they were way behind VS, no matter how bad the C++ VS is compared to C#. To beat MS would take a lot of investment. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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In February, Borland announced it was selling the IDE unit. It appears no purchase has been made, does anyone know anything different? (I think it would be fun to work on it. I loved Turbo C and would love to make Borland C++ be as slick as that product was [I last used Borland C++ extensively with 4.5 and it was horribly buggy. I briefly used 5.01? and it seemed improved, but the project was cancelled before I discovered anything more.]) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I cut my teeth on Windows programming with OWL back in highschool. First was TC++ 3.5, with OWL 1.0, then the BC++ 4.5 and 5.0x with OWL 2.0 and 2.5. I fondly remember those days... :)
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In February, Borland announced it was selling the IDE unit. It appears no purchase has been made, does anyone know anything different? (I think it would be fun to work on it. I loved Turbo C and would love to make Borland C++ be as slick as that product was [I last used Borland C++ extensively with 4.5 and it was horribly buggy. I briefly used 5.01? and it seemed improved, but the project was cancelled before I discovered anything more.]) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Yeah, that's true. Different situation tho. Last time I looked at hte Borland tools, they were way behind VS, no matter how bad the C++ VS is compared to C#. To beat MS would take a lot of investment. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Last time I looked at hte Borland tools, they were way behind VS, no matter how bad the C++ VS is compared to C#. To beat MS would take a lot of investment.
Were I in charge of the Borland products, my goal wouldn't be to beat MS, but to complement them and fill those niches Microsoft no longer wants to fill. For example, one thing lacking in Visual C++ is fully integrated support for WTL. From a practical standpoint, Microsoft's interest in C++ is mainly internal, but also to appear legitimate to the larger development community. Their support for C++ is clearly half-hearted, despite the attempts of many very dedicated Microsoft employees. I may gripe about this, but I fully understand it; Microsoft's largest revenue stream is supporting corporate environments. (We C++ guys may mock VBers, but I'm quite sure VB ultimately made more far money for Microsoft than VC++. The same goes for .NET.) I'd even go so far as to suggest that if Microsoft dropped support for C++ in the next release of Visual Studio, there would be a lot of noise, but not much else. PS. I'll go way out on a limb and suggest that at the highest levels of management Microsoft very seriously considered not including C++ support in Visual Studio 2005. This, I believe, is why the support for C++ is so half-baked. (I actually wish they'd just done a VS2003 service pack with the new compiler and the few additions/modifications to MFC/ATL/WTL/STL.) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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In February, Borland announced it was selling the IDE unit. It appears no purchase has been made, does anyone know anything different? (I think it would be fun to work on it. I loved Turbo C and would love to make Borland C++ be as slick as that product was [I last used Borland C++ extensively with 4.5 and it was horribly buggy. I briefly used 5.01? and it seemed improved, but the project was cancelled before I discovered anything more.]) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Christian Graus wrote:
who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft
A bunch of C++ fanatics?:) It is a money making business, but clearly not enough for Borland to keep it going (I don't blame them.) Plus, it would be nice to have a product that competed with Microsoft at some level. My own idea is to add really good integrated ATL WTL support to Borland C++ and to also include a full UI library like CodeJock as part of the package. Again, I'm under no illusion this would make anyone rich, it would just be fun as heck to work on. (I'd also simplify and improve BDE.) (EDIT: There is still an awful lot of Delphi code out there that needs to be supported. Perhaps Delphi .NET [yeah, I shuddered too writing that] could be added to the suite.) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -- modified at 22:36 Thursday 8th June, 2006
I believe that this also includes the Delphi line which has some pretty vocal support although I don't know what kind of money is involved.
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What if Google bought Borland?
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What if Google bought Borland?
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Christian Graus wrote:
who would buy Borland C++ with the goal of competing with Microsoft
A bunch of C++ fanatics?:) It is a money making business, but clearly not enough for Borland to keep it going (I don't blame them.) Plus, it would be nice to have a product that competed with Microsoft at some level. My own idea is to add really good integrated ATL WTL support to Borland C++ and to also include a full UI library like CodeJock as part of the package. Again, I'm under no illusion this would make anyone rich, it would just be fun as heck to work on. (I'd also simplify and improve BDE.) (EDIT: There is still an awful lot of Delphi code out there that needs to be supported. Perhaps Delphi .NET [yeah, I shuddered too writing that] could be added to the suite.) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke -- modified at 22:36 Thursday 8th June, 2006
Joe Woodbury wrote:
My own idea is to add really good integrated ATL WTL support to Borland C++ and to also include a full UI library like CodeJock as part of the package. Again, I'm under no illusion this would make anyone rich, it would just be fun as heck to work on. (I'd also simplify and improve BDE.)
Why not team up with leppie and add C++ to his IDE? Would have to build a compiler for it. But seems more feasible than taking on borlands complier and its legecy (not a bad thing but why just more work).
I'd love to help, but unfortunatley I have prior commitments monitoring the length of my grass. :Andrew Bleakley:
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
My own idea is to add really good integrated ATL WTL support to Borland C++ and to also include a full UI library like CodeJock as part of the package. Again, I'm under no illusion this would make anyone rich, it would just be fun as heck to work on. (I'd also simplify and improve BDE.)
Why not team up with leppie and add C++ to his IDE? Would have to build a compiler for it. But seems more feasible than taking on borlands complier and its legecy (not a bad thing but why just more work).
I'd love to help, but unfortunatley I have prior commitments monitoring the length of my grass. :Andrew Bleakley:
Because it doesn't have a compiler and I don't work for free. BTW, the Borland C++ compiler is actually quite good. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Because it doesn't have a compiler and I don't work for free. BTW, the Borland C++ compiler is actually quite good. Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Borland C++ compiler is actually quite good.
Oh I don't doubt it, I have never used it, not because it a bad product but simply of ignorance, I didn’t know what Borland did what when I started teaching my self-programming.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Because it doesn't have a compiler
Thought you where indicating you where up for a challenge? :)
I'd love to help, but unfortunatley I have prior commitments monitoring the length of my grass. :Andrew Bleakley:
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
Borland C++ compiler is actually quite good.
Oh I don't doubt it, I have never used it, not because it a bad product but simply of ignorance, I didn’t know what Borland did what when I started teaching my self-programming.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Because it doesn't have a compiler
Thought you where indicating you where up for a challenge? :)
I'd love to help, but unfortunatley I have prior commitments monitoring the length of my grass. :Andrew Bleakley:
S Douglas wrote:
Thought you where indicating you where up for a challenge?
I'm up for a PAID challenge.:) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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S Douglas wrote:
Thought you where indicating you where up for a challenge?
I'm up for a PAID challenge.:) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I'm up for a PAID challenge.
Aren’t we all? :) You could always buy Borland? Cant be that expensive any more, its been on the market now for how long with no bites (or at least no public bites)? :suss:
I'd love to help, but unfortunatley I have prior commitments monitoring the length of my grass. :Andrew Bleakley: -- modified at 1:30 Saturday 10th June, 2006
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I meant simply that I would never choose to compete with MS on one of their core product lines.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I think MS could handle the competition, AND the public would benefit from the push for technologies at the same time. win win.
Yeah, the only losers would be the people that MS would, over time, crush into the dirt. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
Christian Graus wrote:
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote: "I think MS could handle the competition, AND the public would benefit from the push for technologies at the same time. win win." Yeah, the only losers would be the people that MS would, over time, crush into the dirt.
Micro$oft has always been hard to compete with...just look at all those companies they've squashed over the years, and many more that they are continuing to crush with their monopoly (M$ + DELL, M$ + HP, etc)...like a semi running everyone off the road...it's just a matter of time. The software/hardware monopoly is like a well oiled machine, pretty hard to beat unless you have a decent customer base and a totally different platform. And it seems like even that isn't working too well anymore... RIP Apple :(( (keep in mind this is comming from a graphic designer, not lazy user) I think Steve is gonna drive it into the ground pretty soon, its the begining of an end :sigh: I miss their golden days...the iMacs...the blue-and-white G3s...then the later model desktops and powerbooks like the one I've got, a 500Mhz G4 Titanium with a CD/RW and 256MB RAM (needs a new mainboard...i think someone shorted out a trace when the feds siezed it for data analysis, but that's pretty much all i know of its history from before i bought it). I have to say its maybe of the last of the good machines they've made before the infamous 'switch that has taken them a few steps too close to being just another brand of PC...first its the IBM chip and a poorly-coded 'X (don't you just love those kernel panics :rolleyes: ) and now Intel. To me personally they are dead now. And I don't recognize the iPod and don't own one. After all, it doesn't have that Apple "chime" that has for years brought a smile to my face every time my machines powered on... Sorry about my sour mood...i just wish my Macs didn't need over $300 worth of parts to get them back together...but for now i have a few windows/linux boxes which need some repairs as well but run with their guts all pulled out. But back to the subject of Microsoft. I have to say that too many other companies have adopted their strategy nowadays and it keeps getting harder for the smaller business to stay afloat. I mean now we have corporate america feeding on the corpses of those whose jobs were stolen from them in favor of outsourcing, often without regard to the years of work they put in and their devotion to the job. It's all money money money, their bottom