Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]
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kgaddy wrote:
I think you don't understand. If you belive something, then that means that contrary beliefs, are to you, wrong. That is what belief means. But, that does not mean we cannot respect each other and allow each other to live our lives as we please.
I understand the core idea that leads to this - but I think it's not good for society as a whole. I am an atheist - so it doesn't really matter to me what religion someone believes in. But I don't want to be treated with suspicion by someone because he/she feels I am god-less. In a way, I think moderate Hinduism is the mildest of the religions in the world today - since there is no specific way to reach the single-god, moderate hindus are ok with the idea that christians, muslims pray to the same god that they pray to. That allows for social compatibility. The islamic and christian idea of reaching god is slightly more extreme - they aren't compatible with other religions. While this incompatibility is kept peaceful, it's okay - but there are always going to be a bunch of idiots (in all religions) who'd use this as an excuse to attack other religions - this eventually leads to acts of terrorism.
kgaddy wrote:
But this does not give the 2 groups the right to kill each other.
Agreed. Whether you are religious, or agnostic, or atheist, no one has the right to kill another. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
but there are always going to be a bunch of idiots (in all religions) who'd use this as an excuse to attack other religions
I think the thing to realise is that this sort of xenophobia would lead to people attacking others if they were religious or not. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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He's sugar-coating his my-religion-is-better-than-your-religion argument. If what he says is true, then only 2 out of 6 billion people have even a chance of getting into heaven. Out of those 2 billion, 1.2 billion of them are Catholic, which he claims he isn't. Out of a maximum of 1.2 billion, only a small percentage of them adhere to religion in its entirety and a lot of them believe passivly in their religion. So basically, if Juduh is right and there is only one path to heaven, a large percetage of people are going to hell. I personally belive in God, but don't believe in religion, salvation, heaven and hell, or one true path. I believe in God from a scientific standpoint, not a theological one. If God truly created religion, then God, who obviosly has the foresight, would have seen what a mockery religion will be if He were to try to spread His word and make everyone believe in Him without altering their minds and forcing them to believe in Him. The problem with religion is it only preaches an active God and leaves no room for a passive, or sometimes active, one. I can't claim that I am right on this, but I cannot follow blindly just because a book says so, especially one that leaves a lot of things to interpretation.
There are II kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who understand Roman numerals. Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Ok so, you belive a lot of people will go to heaven, and Judah believes less will go. So what? You have your belief, he has his. When you both die you will find out. And everyone thinks their religion is better than every one elses. Think about it, if you thought the other guy's religion was better, you would convert. I honestly think my religion is better than yours. But I respect your right to choose you own path. And I fully expect that you think your beliefs are better than mine. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 16:34 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
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Judah Himango wrote:
I reject the notion that people should be punished for something in their "past life" which they've no knowledge of; I am not a Hindu.
I don't think modern Hinduism promoted reincarnation and karma, all that much :-) My mom is a Hindu - she doesn't believe in that stuff at all.
Judah Himango wrote:
You can't have real belief in God and believe that all ways lead to God; it doesn't work if God is real.
Yep - I understand that this is so. When Christians say god, and when Hindus say god - they are talking about two different things.
Judah Himango wrote:
If I have this knowledge, and I am honest in believing that this Jesus is the person he claimed to be, how could I ever say "all paths lead to God", when they clearly don't?
The same theory can be used with equal effect by a Muslim or a Hindu - they could also say "only my path leads to god". But then, that's what's happening today in the world. If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not. That'd make it an egoistic god - which kinda goes against the "nice guy god" people think about.
Judah Himango wrote:
No, some people are wrong and some people are on a downward spiral. That's why I'm saying these things; to give a hand to those on the downward spirals.
But to the god-believing billions who don't believe in Jesus, your way is the downward spiral, just as theirs is to you. Also, while you are not intentionally attempting to sound insulting, saying that non-Jesus-followers are on a downward spiral can be pretty rude :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
My mom is a Hindu - she doesn't believe in that stuff at all.
But if what it means to be a Hindu moves over time, if they can keep the name and abandon parts of the belief, when what is it worth ? Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong ?
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
The same theory can be used with equal effect by a Muslim or a Hindu - they could also say "only my path leads to god".
In fact, they have to do that, if they indeed believe the tenets of Islam or Hinduism.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not
This is a common saying. However, it misses a core point. God wants to 'save' EVERYBODY, but He's actually limited. He's limited by what is 'fair'. In other words, Jesus didn't die for fun, He died because He had to, and God is unable to save anyone who doesn't take advantage of that fact. Mental assent of the existence of God doesn't help anyone.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But to the god-believing billions who don't believe in Jesus, your way is the downward spiral, just as theirs is to you.
Yes, that's obviously true. The point is that those different ways are mutually exclusive. You can argue that all those ways are wrong, or that one way is right. You can't argue that they are all right, as they cancel each other out. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Why cannot there be multiple paths to a god (or gods)? Why go by the "my belief is the only true belief" theory?
For you is your religion, and for me is mine.(Quran 109:6) if some muslim doesnt follow this verse which talks about tolerence with non quran followers then its not religion's fault.Jesus(AS) said something similar which mentioned by Judah.If chritians dont follow it then its not problem with belief itself.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
To Adnan, it's through Mohammed's ways and no other.
no this is not correct.As a muslim i am asked to believe that every prophet from Adam to Muhammad propagated same message of God.I dontknow u know or not but unless we accept every prophet from Adam to Jesus and then Muhammad then we cant be declared as Muslim according to the islamic system.Muslims dont have issue with Abraham,david,solomon etc.The issue was all that we believe that God's message was tempered in middle by ancient followers(Jews and then chirstian).Jews might consider christians similar to muslims because they would think that christians comeup with new cult by adding new things in OT and then named it as NT by Jesus;rejecting every teachings of OT.
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One thing I still don't understand - if Jesus was a prophet, but Christians tampered with what He said, how do you know what Jesus said ? Do you have access to an alternative set of writings that you regard as Jesus' message untampered with ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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He's sugar-coating his my-religion-is-better-than-your-religion argument. If what he says is true, then only 2 out of 6 billion people have even a chance of getting into heaven. Out of those 2 billion, 1.2 billion of them are Catholic, which he claims he isn't. Out of a maximum of 1.2 billion, only a small percentage of them adhere to religion in its entirety and a lot of them believe passivly in their religion. So basically, if Juduh is right and there is only one path to heaven, a large percetage of people are going to hell. I personally belive in God, but don't believe in religion, salvation, heaven and hell, or one true path. I believe in God from a scientific standpoint, not a theological one. If God truly created religion, then God, who obviosly has the foresight, would have seen what a mockery religion will be if He were to try to spread His word and make everyone believe in Him without altering their minds and forcing them to believe in Him. The problem with religion is it only preaches an active God and leaves no room for a passive, or sometimes active, one. I can't claim that I am right on this, but I cannot follow blindly just because a book says so, especially one that leaves a lot of things to interpretation.
There are II kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who understand Roman numerals. Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If God truly created religion, then God, who obviosly has the foresight, would have seen what a mockery religion will be if He were to try to spread His word and make everyone believe in Him without altering their minds and forcing them to believe in Him.
Exactly what I've always thought. Right now, the idea of god that most religions talk about paint him as an egoistic nasty entity who wants everyone to bow to his every whim. If an all powerful god did exist, I don't think he/she would give a damn whether people believe in god or if they pray to god etc. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
One thing I still don't understand - if Jesus was a prophet, but Christians tampered with what He said, how do you know what Jesus said ? Do you have access to an alternative set of writings that you regard as Jesus' message untampered with ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
The Gospel of Judas!
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Why is so much of the soapbox conversation so centered around Adnan? Stand rigid for the next battle Peace means reloading your guns The love for life is all hatred in disguise - Dimmu Borgir
Are you jealous ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Yep, good point. He mentioned this to the Romans, when he said,
At the same time, you need to know that I carry with me at all times a huge sorrow. It's an enormous pain deep within me, and I'm never free of it. I'm not exaggerating—Christ and the Holy Spirit are my witnesses. It's the Jews...If there were any way I could be cursed by the Messiah so they could be blessed by him, I'd do it in a minute. They're my family. I grew up with them. They had everything going for them—family, glory, covenants, revelation, worship, promises, to say nothing of being the race that produced the Messiah, who is God over everything, always.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
What translation was that from? The Living Bible? Sounds like a paraphrase.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
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kgaddy wrote:
In the meantime, does he expect all of us to close our eyes and take a sword to the head?
Yes: Matthew 5 38-45.
kgaddy wrote:
I mean if that happens, all that believe in him are dead.
No - under Christianity, to die with the teachings of the scripture - tolerance, kindness, respect, understanding, forgiveness - in your heart, mind, and actions, is the pathway to everlasting life with the Father. - F
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kgaddy wrote:
In the meantime, does he expect all of us to close our eyes and take a sword to the head?
Yes: Matthew 5 38-45.
kgaddy wrote:
I mean if that happens, all that believe in him are dead.
No - under Christianity, to die with the teachings of the scripture - tolerance, kindness, respect, understanding, forgiveness - in your heart, mind, and actions, is the pathway to everlasting life with the Father. - F
So that means if I see a child being threatned, I should forgive and let it happen? God expects Christians to be sheep for the slaughter? I cannot belive this. If someone threatens me or someone else that is innocent, and I am able to stop it, even through violence, I'll do it. God gave me life on this earth. I will not give it away so easy. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
think you have totally misinterpreted me.
He meant that the replies by espier and Stan to your post show they are seeking to increase the gap instead of decrease it. He did not mean that you asking the question was divisive, just some of the responses.
Ah.. so it was me misinterpreting him. How ironic. :)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
to Hindus, through temples and Hindu prayers
Because some are true and some are not. :) If a man came along and said, "money is my god, and the more I spend the more he's happy", that doesn't mean he is right. I reject the notion that people should be punished for something in their "past life" which they've no knowledge of; I am not a Hindu. I reject the notion the conquest and robbery is God's way; I am not a follower of Mohammed. Jews are just about right; they are looking for Messiah (even in modern times, they're still looking for him), but they've turned faith into God into a ritual ceremony; I am not a practicer of Judaism. But I do accept the reality that God is all about love and forgiveness; I believe in Jesus, who is the Messiah. You can't have real belief in God and believe that all ways lead to God; it doesn't work if God is real. You can't be intellectually honest with yourself if you say, "I believe in Jesus", only to turn around and say that everyone from Hindus to Buddhists are living right before God. Why? God has rules for right living. If he didn't, there would be no good and evil, no real right and wrong beyond human speculation. One thing Jesus said is that no one comes to God but through him. He was specially setup as Messiah for this purpose. We don't call him Messiah just because he was some old guy that talked about God alot; he is Messiah because he was specially appointed by God so that everyone -- whether Jew, gentile, Hindu, any race, color, religion, can come to God through Him. (see John 14:6[^]). Whereas previously God had picked a small group of people, Israel, to be a people of God (this was thanks to some promises God gave to a few certain folks for their faith in God), Jesus swung the doors wide open for all humanity to come into light, to know the real God, the one and only. If I have this knowledge, and I am honest in believing that this Jesus is the person he claimed to be, how could I ever say "all paths lead to God", when they clearly don't? (As a someone who tried the do-it-your-own-way of living, I can say most paths lead downward!) To say all paths lead to God is nothing short of a lie meant to pacify differences between religions. That's not what God is about. God is about
Judah Himango wrote:
I reject the notion that people should be punished for something in their "past life" which they've no knowledge of; I am not a Hindu.
Actually, Hinduism isn't the only religion that believes in reincarnation. A lot of other religions including some Christians believe in it. Just because you don't remember your previous life, doesn't mean that you didn't live it. Our religion believes in reincarnation and that God will judge you based on all the different chances you were given to atone for yourself. That actually sounds like a very good explanation for why reincarnation might be possible. Just because you refuse to believe it, since your religion doesn't have it, doesn't make it false. Religion and reincarnation are based on faith and can't be proven, just like you believing that Jesus is the messiah.
Judah Himango wrote:
You can't have real belief in God and believe that all ways lead to God; it doesn't work if God is real.
Again, that is based on your interpretation. God is infinite and infinitely compassionate. So why should there be only one road that leads to him? What would you say to a person who's never travelled, never watched television, never read a religious book and doesn't drink, smoke or swear, but still believes in God? Would you tell them that they're going to hell because they don't belive in your religion? Then your religion is cruel.
Judah Himango wrote:
God has rules for right living. If he didn't, there would be no good and evil, no real right and wrong beyond human speculation.
This is all human speculation anyway. God has rules that only God knows and what we each believe His rules to us are. Your belief that His rules are what you adhere to conflict with everybody's belief, including those who believe that you, them and the guy I mentioned above are going to heaven.
Judah Himango wrote:
One thing Jesus said is that no one comes to God but through him. He was specially setup as Messiah for this purpose.
Belief again.
Judah Himango wrote:
If I have this knowledge,
I think you meant to say believe this knowledge. Which means belief.
Judah Himango wrote:
To say all paths lead to God is nothing short of a lie m
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So that means if I see a child being threatned, I should forgive and let it happen? God expects Christians to be sheep for the slaughter? I cannot belive this. If someone threatens me or someone else that is innocent, and I am able to stop it, even through violence, I'll do it. God gave me life on this earth. I will not give it away so easy. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
Romans 12:19-21 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (emphasis mine)
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
There are many. I don't have it readily available, but I asked if he condemned suicide bombers. His response (after a week of dodging) was that he condemns suicide bombers...because they target Muslims in mosques. He had a long drawn out explanation as to how the Quran states that it's OK to kill over "corruption in the land" yada yada yada that justified terrorism.
espeir wrote:
I don't have it readily available
Ah, OK. So you're actually replying to him but NOT replying to what he says. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
My mom is a Hindu - she doesn't believe in that stuff at all.
But if what it means to be a Hindu moves over time, if they can keep the name and abandon parts of the belief, when what is it worth ? Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong ?
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
The same theory can be used with equal effect by a Muslim or a Hindu - they could also say "only my path leads to god".
In fact, they have to do that, if they indeed believe the tenets of Islam or Hinduism.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not
This is a common saying. However, it misses a core point. God wants to 'save' EVERYBODY, but He's actually limited. He's limited by what is 'fair'. In other words, Jesus didn't die for fun, He died because He had to, and God is unable to save anyone who doesn't take advantage of that fact. Mental assent of the existence of God doesn't help anyone.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But to the god-believing billions who don't believe in Jesus, your way is the downward spiral, just as theirs is to you.
Yes, that's obviously true. The point is that those different ways are mutually exclusive. You can argue that all those ways are wrong, or that one way is right. You can't argue that they are all right, as they cancel each other out. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, that's obviously true. The point is that those different ways are mutually exclusive. You can argue that all those ways are wrong, or that one way is right. You can't argue that they are all right, as they cancel each other out.
This was what I was trying to say in half my posts in this thread :-)
Christian Graus wrote:
Rex and my new metal blog
Somehow that doesn't sound correct - is that proper grammar? I wouldn't know of course. But Rex's and my new metal blog would be closer to it I think. Again, not sure. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
What translation was that from? The Living Bible? Sounds like a paraphrase.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog"The Message" translation, one of my favorites :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Romans 12:19-21 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (emphasis mine)
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogI'm not talking about vengence. That is after the fact. I'm talking about stopping the guy coming after me with a weapon. Can I stop him BEFORE he kills me? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 16:47 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
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"The Message" translation, one of my favorites :cool:
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Nishant various dialogues in various forums(offcourse not CP's soapbox) are being taken places for many years and authorites from christianity islam and judaism are keep in touch and trying to understand each other's faith and also discovering similarties between all abrahamic faith so i have no worries that these 3 mentioned religions are not compatible.I cant say similar about Hinduism because its entirely different than religions based on abrahamic faith and I think hinduism and islam is not a universal issue as such conflicts only exist between India and Pakistan only so i would rather call it a political issue rather a religious one. People like stan,espeir and kagaddy will always be ready to increase gap between two faiths no matter whatever you do.the recent attempt by Jorgen is the perfect example+espeir and kagaddy personally asked my opinion about sucide bombing but as I knew that they were jusing being naughty and they proved in latest posts.Such minorities offcourse harmful for masses but good thing is that masses ignore them as well.There will be hardly 2/3 muslim members who will be active in Soapbox.I only find A.A other than me who posts here otherwise most of the time this group of thugs is damned by people of their own side and many of them would be follower of their book as well.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
A lot of people are now seemingly attacking Islamic terrorism
No this has been happening since ages,its just media is so powerful that you have access to everything very easily via net or tv.
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Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
espeir and kagaddy personally asked my opinion about sucide bombing but as I knew that they were jusing being naughty
I understand that they were trolling, but what I don't understand is why you can't just say, "I do not agree with or support suicide bombers,". Sure, it might not be your responsibility to do it, but if it's such an easy thing, what is the harm in saying it?
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. ~Stephen Roberts
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Are you jealous ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Are you jealous ?
:-D Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)