Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]
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Ok so, you belive a lot of people will go to heaven, and Judah believes less will go. So what? You have your belief, he has his. When you both die you will find out. And everyone thinks their religion is better than every one elses. Think about it, if you thought the other guy's religion was better, you would convert. I honestly think my religion is better than yours. But I respect your right to choose you own path. And I fully expect that you think your beliefs are better than mine. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 16:34 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
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I'm not talking about vengence. That is after the fact. I'm talking about stopping the guy coming after me with a weapon. Can I stop him BEFORE he kills me? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 16:47 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
I wouldn't see why not, but God says, "let us reason together" and we should at least try reason before we do anything else. If reason does not work, leave the situation if possible. Look, you either believe God is in control or you don't. Will your actions help the situation if you are killed before you can kill the other person? Who is to say he wouldn't kill you and the child you are protecting? But if you can give your life for another person - there is no greater love than that. Killing another person is a big thing. It should not be taken lightly and should be well thought out. If you don't have time to think, then God may well guide your actions through the Holy Spirit. This just shows the importance of study, prayer and faith.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
kgaddy wrote:
So that means if I see a child being threatned, I should forgive and let it happen?
kgaddy wrote:
If someone threatens me or someone else that is innocent, and I am able to stop it, even through violence, I'll do it.
I suggest you read the Scripture passages Jason outlined above. There are other methods of resisting tyranny or opression other than violence. Jesus led by example, not by force.
kgaddy wrote:
God gave me life on this earth. I will not give it away so easy.
Your life belongs to God, not you. God wants you to follow His teachings and trust in His guidance. The way to everlasting life is not by clinging to this mortal one. - F
Ok, I follow you, but let me try one more example. What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
If God truly created religion, then God, who obviosly has the foresight, would have seen what a mockery religion will be if He were to try to spread His word and make everyone believe in Him without altering their minds and forcing them to believe in Him.
Exactly what I've always thought. Right now, the idea of god that most religions talk about paint him as an egoistic nasty entity who wants everyone to bow to his every whim. If an all powerful god did exist, I don't think he/she would give a damn whether people believe in god or if they pray to god etc. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
My mom is a Hindu - she doesn't believe in that stuff at all.
But if what it means to be a Hindu moves over time, if they can keep the name and abandon parts of the belief, when what is it worth ? Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong ?
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
The same theory can be used with equal effect by a Muslim or a Hindu - they could also say "only my path leads to god".
In fact, they have to do that, if they indeed believe the tenets of Islam or Hinduism.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not
This is a common saying. However, it misses a core point. God wants to 'save' EVERYBODY, but He's actually limited. He's limited by what is 'fair'. In other words, Jesus didn't die for fun, He died because He had to, and God is unable to save anyone who doesn't take advantage of that fact. Mental assent of the existence of God doesn't help anyone.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But to the god-believing billions who don't believe in Jesus, your way is the downward spiral, just as theirs is to you.
Yes, that's obviously true. The point is that those different ways are mutually exclusive. You can argue that all those ways are wrong, or that one way is right. You can't argue that they are all right, as they cancel each other out. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
But if what it means to be a Hindu moves over time, if they can keep the name and abandon parts of the belief, when what is it worth ? Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong ?
All the Karma/Reincarnation stuff is not part of fundamental Hinduism (as far as I know). They were added in later, as meta-religious stuff. Most modern day Hindus ignore most of the meta-stuff and pray to a single god-entity. The 1000s of gods are treated as stories written over the ages. There's no real belief in a cow-god or ganapathy (elephant headed god) etc. Moderate Hinduism is an extremely mild religion. Which is why I got to be an atheist without too much trouble. My parents/family didn't really mind all that much when they found out I wasn't going to be big on religion. Good for me anyway that my parents weren't fanatical Hindus. :-D Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Judah Himango wrote:
I reject the notion that people should be punished for something in their "past life" which they've no knowledge of; I am not a Hindu.
Actually, Hinduism isn't the only religion that believes in reincarnation. A lot of other religions including some Christians believe in it. Just because you don't remember your previous life, doesn't mean that you didn't live it. Our religion believes in reincarnation and that God will judge you based on all the different chances you were given to atone for yourself. That actually sounds like a very good explanation for why reincarnation might be possible. Just because you refuse to believe it, since your religion doesn't have it, doesn't make it false. Religion and reincarnation are based on faith and can't be proven, just like you believing that Jesus is the messiah.
Judah Himango wrote:
You can't have real belief in God and believe that all ways lead to God; it doesn't work if God is real.
Again, that is based on your interpretation. God is infinite and infinitely compassionate. So why should there be only one road that leads to him? What would you say to a person who's never travelled, never watched television, never read a religious book and doesn't drink, smoke or swear, but still believes in God? Would you tell them that they're going to hell because they don't belive in your religion? Then your religion is cruel.
Judah Himango wrote:
God has rules for right living. If he didn't, there would be no good and evil, no real right and wrong beyond human speculation.
This is all human speculation anyway. God has rules that only God knows and what we each believe His rules to us are. Your belief that His rules are what you adhere to conflict with everybody's belief, including those who believe that you, them and the guy I mentioned above are going to heaven.
Judah Himango wrote:
One thing Jesus said is that no one comes to God but through him. He was specially setup as Messiah for this purpose.
Belief again.
Judah Himango wrote:
If I have this knowledge,
I think you meant to say believe this knowledge. Which means belief.
Judah Himango wrote:
To say all paths lead to God is nothing short of a lie m
Extremely well-worded and well-argued posting, Bassam :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
I wouldn't see why not, but God says, "let us reason together" and we should at least try reason before we do anything else. If reason does not work, leave the situation if possible. Look, you either believe God is in control or you don't. Will your actions help the situation if you are killed before you can kill the other person? Who is to say he wouldn't kill you and the child you are protecting? But if you can give your life for another person - there is no greater love than that. Killing another person is a big thing. It should not be taken lightly and should be well thought out. If you don't have time to think, then God may well guide your actions through the Holy Spirit. This just shows the importance of study, prayer and faith.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogYes I agree it is a very, very last resort. And I'm sure those who have killed protecting others, who were justified, still have to deal with the fact they have taken a life. I do beileve God is in control. What if God, being in control, wants a person to kill a evil person that is doing a lot of harm to others. Maybe he choose that person because he knows he can handle it? These are hard questions. I just do not feel like we should lay down and be slaughtered. I also belive we must be very careful if the decision comes up and deadly force is needed to save lives. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 17:01 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
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The Gospel of Judas!
I thought the Islamic forgery was the gospel of Barnabas? http://barnabas.net/ [^] Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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Judah Himango wrote:
I reject the notion that people should be punished for something in their "past life" which they've no knowledge of; I am not a Hindu.
I don't think modern Hinduism promoted reincarnation and karma, all that much :-) My mom is a Hindu - she doesn't believe in that stuff at all.
Judah Himango wrote:
You can't have real belief in God and believe that all ways lead to God; it doesn't work if God is real.
Yep - I understand that this is so. When Christians say god, and when Hindus say god - they are talking about two different things.
Judah Himango wrote:
If I have this knowledge, and I am honest in believing that this Jesus is the person he claimed to be, how could I ever say "all paths lead to God", when they clearly don't?
The same theory can be used with equal effect by a Muslim or a Hindu - they could also say "only my path leads to god". But then, that's what's happening today in the world. If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not. That'd make it an egoistic god - which kinda goes against the "nice guy god" people think about.
Judah Himango wrote:
No, some people are wrong and some people are on a downward spiral. That's why I'm saying these things; to give a hand to those on the downward spirals.
But to the god-believing billions who don't believe in Jesus, your way is the downward spiral, just as theirs is to you. Also, while you are not intentionally attempting to sound insulting, saying that non-Jesus-followers are on a downward spiral can be pretty rude :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not. That'd make it an egoistic god - which kinda goes against the "nice guy god" people think about.
I don't think of God as a nice God or a mean God. That's childish. I respectuflly disagree God is egoistic if he enjoys people that do good and believe in Him. If God exists and he didn't care how you lived your life, where's the fabric of good and evil? In reality, then, there would be no real good and no real evil, just human speculation.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Also, while you are not intentionally attempting to sound insulting, saying that non-Jesus-followers are on a downward spiral can be pretty rude
I'm not here to please everybody; I'll leave that to the PC folks. The downward spiral I'm talking about isn't necessarily non-Jesus believers. I have other thoughts about those people. The people I was referring to are those that live like I had for awhile: do whatever you feel like doing, whatever's right in your own eyes. You know, if it feels good, it's ok to do. That kind of living can ruin a life. What it comes down to, Nish, is someone is right in all this. Maybe there's some truth spread around, sure, but in the end, not everyone is right. That's a utopian, unrealistic view of the world. That's why I can't seriously say, "all paths lead to God", because we know certainly not all paths lead to God. On the contrary, most paths naturally lead to things humans enjoy doing; this forum is a testament to that, with people mocking other people, bashing other religions or all religions, hateful speech, to name a few. It doesn't stop there, of course. If some of us in this forum had enough power, we'd take our hateful speeches, our religion bashing, our desires for power, or conquest, our lusts, and bring them to their physical conclusions, ruining our lives and maybe others' in the process.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul
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Ok, I follow you, but let me try one more example. What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here.
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. To kill someone to save a life is a sum of zero. To kill someone to save a life implies that YOU are judging the worthiness of their souls, that YOU are judging which soul is ready to meet the Father and which is not. YOU are not the judge of that. To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance. This is not what Jesus wants of us. - F
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
My mom is a Hindu - she doesn't believe in that stuff at all.
But if what it means to be a Hindu moves over time, if they can keep the name and abandon parts of the belief, when what is it worth ? Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong ?
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
The same theory can be used with equal effect by a Muslim or a Hindu - they could also say "only my path leads to god".
In fact, they have to do that, if they indeed believe the tenets of Islam or Hinduism.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not
This is a common saying. However, it misses a core point. God wants to 'save' EVERYBODY, but He's actually limited. He's limited by what is 'fair'. In other words, Jesus didn't die for fun, He died because He had to, and God is unable to save anyone who doesn't take advantage of that fact. Mental assent of the existence of God doesn't help anyone.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But to the god-believing billions who don't believe in Jesus, your way is the downward spiral, just as theirs is to you.
Yes, that's obviously true. The point is that those different ways are mutually exclusive. You can argue that all those ways are wrong, or that one way is right. You can't argue that they are all right, as they cancel each other out. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong
You could say the same for medieval Catholics. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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kgaddy wrote:
What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here.
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. To kill someone to save a life is a sum of zero. To kill someone to save a life implies that YOU are judging the worthiness of their souls, that YOU are judging which soul is ready to meet the Father and which is not. YOU are not the judge of that. To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance. This is not what Jesus wants of us. - F
Fisticuffs wrote:
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours.
What if God works through man and somtimes that means killing evil men?
Fisticuffs wrote:
To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance.
No, thats absurd. This is in context of Christans defending themselves against islamic terrorists. I disagree with your beliefs on self defense. I hope I am never faced with the situation where I have to harm someone in self defense. But I do hope that if it did happen I would make the right decision, even if, God forbid, I had to take a life. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not. That'd make it an egoistic god - which kinda goes against the "nice guy god" people think about.
I don't think of God as a nice God or a mean God. That's childish. I respectuflly disagree God is egoistic if he enjoys people that do good and believe in Him. If God exists and he didn't care how you lived your life, where's the fabric of good and evil? In reality, then, there would be no real good and no real evil, just human speculation.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Also, while you are not intentionally attempting to sound insulting, saying that non-Jesus-followers are on a downward spiral can be pretty rude
I'm not here to please everybody; I'll leave that to the PC folks. The downward spiral I'm talking about isn't necessarily non-Jesus believers. I have other thoughts about those people. The people I was referring to are those that live like I had for awhile: do whatever you feel like doing, whatever's right in your own eyes. You know, if it feels good, it's ok to do. That kind of living can ruin a life. What it comes down to, Nish, is someone is right in all this. Maybe there's some truth spread around, sure, but in the end, not everyone is right. That's a utopian, unrealistic view of the world. That's why I can't seriously say, "all paths lead to God", because we know certainly not all paths lead to God. On the contrary, most paths naturally lead to things humans enjoy doing; this forum is a testament to that, with people mocking other people, bashing other religions or all religions, hateful speech, to name a few. It doesn't stop there, of course. If some of us in this forum had enough power, we'd take our hateful speeches, our religion bashing, our desires for power, or conquest, our lusts, and bring them to their physical conclusions, ruining our lives and maybe others' in the process.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul
Judah Himango wrote:
I respectuflly disagree God is egoistic if he enjoys people that do good and believe in Him.
How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?
Judah Himango wrote:
In reality, then, there would be no real good and no real evil, just human speculation.
Even good and evil are human invented over the centuries, when we've slowly come to an agreement on what's really good, and what's really bad. Religious and non-religious people agree that it's evil (or bad) to hurt a child, to steal, to rape, to murder etc.
Judah Himango wrote:
What it comes down to, Nish, is someone is right in all this.
While that is a possibility, it's also possible that different people are partially but not 100% right. Or that everyone's wrong and the truth is totally different from what anyone has imagined.
Judah Himango wrote:
On the contrary, most paths naturally lead to things humans enjoy doing; this forum is a testament to that, with people mocking other people, bashing other religions or all religions, hateful speech, to name a few.
Half-agree. But it's also true that religious people (across religions) have also done some really nice things in life. Oh, and some of us atheists can be nice people too :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Yeah, BibleGateway.com[^] has it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yes I agree it is a very, very last resort. And I'm sure those who have killed protecting others, who were justified, still have to deal with the fact they have taken a life. I do beileve God is in control. What if God, being in control, wants a person to kill a evil person that is doing a lot of harm to others. Maybe he choose that person because he knows he can handle it? These are hard questions. I just do not feel like we should lay down and be slaughtered. I also belive we must be very careful if the decision comes up and deadly force is needed to save lives. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 17:01 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
kgaddy wrote:
What if God, being in control, wants a person to kill a evil person that is doing a lot of harm to others. Maybe he choose that person because he knows he can handle it?
Now we're treading dangerously close to the views we're fighting against. I personally do not think God will impress on a Christian to kill someone because that someone is evil. We have a model in Christ to be living sacrifices, not killers.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog-- modified at 18:03 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
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Judah Himango wrote:
but you know what, I consider him a friend anyways and we've crossed some bridges at the same time.
Thankyou.I learn a lot of things from your blog and as I always say that despite of difference between our thoughts which was not supposed by Abraham at His time,I admire your efforts to promote your religion to outer world and since we muslims were allowed to take reference from yuor torah the OT so naturally i am inclined towards the things which originate from some jewish book resource.
http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan | kadnan.blogspot.com | AJAX based Contact Form for Blogger or any other website
Cool, Adnan. I enjoy talking with you and debating with you too, even if we usually disagree. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I don't think that any atheist who wishes to spread atheism is non-religious in nature. By doing that, he's pretty much implementing a religion of sorts (albeit one that's not based on a god). Also atheists shouldn't be equated with the communists of the former USSR era.
Atheism is a religion. Agnosticism is not.
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Yeah, BibleGateway.com[^] has it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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No, it's ignorance. :)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
When did muslim terrosism start and why?