Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]
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Ok, I follow you, but let me try one more example. What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here.
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. To kill someone to save a life is a sum of zero. To kill someone to save a life implies that YOU are judging the worthiness of their souls, that YOU are judging which soul is ready to meet the Father and which is not. YOU are not the judge of that. To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance. This is not what Jesus wants of us. - F
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
My mom is a Hindu - she doesn't believe in that stuff at all.
But if what it means to be a Hindu moves over time, if they can keep the name and abandon parts of the belief, when what is it worth ? Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong ?
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
The same theory can be used with equal effect by a Muslim or a Hindu - they could also say "only my path leads to god".
In fact, they have to do that, if they indeed believe the tenets of Islam or Hinduism.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not
This is a common saying. However, it misses a core point. God wants to 'save' EVERYBODY, but He's actually limited. He's limited by what is 'fair'. In other words, Jesus didn't die for fun, He died because He had to, and God is unable to save anyone who doesn't take advantage of that fact. Mental assent of the existence of God doesn't help anyone.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
But to the god-believing billions who don't believe in Jesus, your way is the downward spiral, just as theirs is to you.
Yes, that's obviously true. The point is that those different ways are mutually exclusive. You can argue that all those ways are wrong, or that one way is right. You can't argue that they are all right, as they cancel each other out. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Were the old Hindus ( who were still Hindus ) wrong
You could say the same for medieval Catholics. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
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kgaddy wrote:
What if I saw a man getting ready to kill an innocent child. The only way to stop him his is to shoot him (say he is a long way away). Are you saying I should not shoot him and let the child die? I just want to make sure here.
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. To kill someone to save a life is a sum of zero. To kill someone to save a life implies that YOU are judging the worthiness of their souls, that YOU are judging which soul is ready to meet the Father and which is not. YOU are not the judge of that. To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance. This is not what Jesus wants of us. - F
Fisticuffs wrote:
The child's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours. The murderer's life and soul is in God's hands, not yours.
What if God works through man and somtimes that means killing evil men?
Fisticuffs wrote:
To be honest, it seems like you are searching to be told that killing someone would be OK, given some arbitrary circumstance.
No, thats absurd. This is in context of Christans defending themselves against islamic terrorists. I disagree with your beliefs on self defense. I hope I am never faced with the situation where I have to harm someone in self defense. But I do hope that if it did happen I would make the right decision, even if, God forbid, I had to take a life. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
If a god did exist, I'd be tremendously surprised if he or she or it treated people based on whether they believed in him or not. That'd make it an egoistic god - which kinda goes against the "nice guy god" people think about.
I don't think of God as a nice God or a mean God. That's childish. I respectuflly disagree God is egoistic if he enjoys people that do good and believe in Him. If God exists and he didn't care how you lived your life, where's the fabric of good and evil? In reality, then, there would be no real good and no real evil, just human speculation.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Also, while you are not intentionally attempting to sound insulting, saying that non-Jesus-followers are on a downward spiral can be pretty rude
I'm not here to please everybody; I'll leave that to the PC folks. The downward spiral I'm talking about isn't necessarily non-Jesus believers. I have other thoughts about those people. The people I was referring to are those that live like I had for awhile: do whatever you feel like doing, whatever's right in your own eyes. You know, if it feels good, it's ok to do. That kind of living can ruin a life. What it comes down to, Nish, is someone is right in all this. Maybe there's some truth spread around, sure, but in the end, not everyone is right. That's a utopian, unrealistic view of the world. That's why I can't seriously say, "all paths lead to God", because we know certainly not all paths lead to God. On the contrary, most paths naturally lead to things humans enjoy doing; this forum is a testament to that, with people mocking other people, bashing other religions or all religions, hateful speech, to name a few. It doesn't stop there, of course. If some of us in this forum had enough power, we'd take our hateful speeches, our religion bashing, our desires for power, or conquest, our lusts, and bring them to their physical conclusions, ruining our lives and maybe others' in the process.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul
Judah Himango wrote:
I respectuflly disagree God is egoistic if he enjoys people that do good and believe in Him.
How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?
Judah Himango wrote:
In reality, then, there would be no real good and no real evil, just human speculation.
Even good and evil are human invented over the centuries, when we've slowly come to an agreement on what's really good, and what's really bad. Religious and non-religious people agree that it's evil (or bad) to hurt a child, to steal, to rape, to murder etc.
Judah Himango wrote:
What it comes down to, Nish, is someone is right in all this.
While that is a possibility, it's also possible that different people are partially but not 100% right. Or that everyone's wrong and the truth is totally different from what anyone has imagined.
Judah Himango wrote:
On the contrary, most paths naturally lead to things humans enjoy doing; this forum is a testament to that, with people mocking other people, bashing other religions or all religions, hateful speech, to name a few.
Half-agree. But it's also true that religious people (across religions) have also done some really nice things in life. Oh, and some of us atheists can be nice people too :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Yeah, BibleGateway.com[^] has it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Yes I agree it is a very, very last resort. And I'm sure those who have killed protecting others, who were justified, still have to deal with the fact they have taken a life. I do beileve God is in control. What if God, being in control, wants a person to kill a evil person that is doing a lot of harm to others. Maybe he choose that person because he knows he can handle it? These are hard questions. I just do not feel like we should lay down and be slaughtered. I also belive we must be very careful if the decision comes up and deadly force is needed to save lives. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 17:01 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
kgaddy wrote:
What if God, being in control, wants a person to kill a evil person that is doing a lot of harm to others. Maybe he choose that person because he knows he can handle it?
Now we're treading dangerously close to the views we're fighting against. I personally do not think God will impress on a Christian to kill someone because that someone is evil. We have a model in Christ to be living sacrifices, not killers.
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog-- modified at 18:03 Wednesday 14th June, 2006
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Judah Himango wrote:
but you know what, I consider him a friend anyways and we've crossed some bridges at the same time.
Thankyou.I learn a lot of things from your blog and as I always say that despite of difference between our thoughts which was not supposed by Abraham at His time,I admire your efforts to promote your religion to outer world and since we muslims were allowed to take reference from yuor torah the OT so naturally i am inclined towards the things which originate from some jewish book resource.
http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan | kadnan.blogspot.com | AJAX based Contact Form for Blogger or any other website
Cool, Adnan. I enjoy talking with you and debating with you too, even if we usually disagree. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
I don't think that any atheist who wishes to spread atheism is non-religious in nature. By doing that, he's pretty much implementing a religion of sorts (albeit one that's not based on a god). Also atheists shouldn't be equated with the communists of the former USSR era.
Atheism is a religion. Agnosticism is not.
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Yeah, BibleGateway.com[^] has it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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No, it's ignorance. :)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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kgaddy wrote:
But that is not happening, so why are you worried about it?
When did muslim terrosism start and why?
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Why cannot there be multiple paths to a god (or gods)? Why go by the "my belief is the only true belief" theory?
For you is your religion, and for me is mine.(Quran 109:6) if some muslim doesnt follow this verse which talks about tolerence with non quran followers then its not religion's fault.Jesus(AS) said something similar which mentioned by Judah.If chritians dont follow it then its not problem with belief itself.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
To Adnan, it's through Mohammed's ways and no other.
no this is not correct.As a muslim i am asked to believe that every prophet from Adam to Muhammad propagated same message of God.I dontknow u know or not but unless we accept every prophet from Adam to Jesus and then Muhammad then we cant be declared as Muslim according to the islamic system.Muslims dont have issue with Abraham,david,solomon etc.The issue was all that we believe that God's message was tempered in middle by ancient followers(Jews and then chirstian).Jews might consider christians similar to muslims because they would think that christians comeup with new cult by adding new things in OT and then named it as NT by Jesus;rejecting every teachings of OT.
http://weblogs.com.pk/kadnan | kadnan.blogspot.com | AJAX based Contact Form for Blogger or any other website
Um, I just thought I'd come in and represent the Jewish community to this discussion. My grandmother said, "You know what the meaning to any Jewish holiday is? They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat!" Feel free to ask questions. Depending where you live there aren't many Jews and we are often misunderstood. BTW, we don't believe in Hell.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I respectuflly disagree God is egoistic if he enjoys people that do good and believe in Him.
How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?
Judah Himango wrote:
In reality, then, there would be no real good and no real evil, just human speculation.
Even good and evil are human invented over the centuries, when we've slowly come to an agreement on what's really good, and what's really bad. Religious and non-religious people agree that it's evil (or bad) to hurt a child, to steal, to rape, to murder etc.
Judah Himango wrote:
What it comes down to, Nish, is someone is right in all this.
While that is a possibility, it's also possible that different people are partially but not 100% right. Or that everyone's wrong and the truth is totally different from what anyone has imagined.
Judah Himango wrote:
On the contrary, most paths naturally lead to things humans enjoy doing; this forum is a testament to that, with people mocking other people, bashing other religions or all religions, hateful speech, to name a few.
Half-agree. But it's also true that religious people (across religions) have also done some really nice things in life. Oh, and some of us atheists can be nice people too :-) Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?
The question is not, "Why did God make this particular way to him, the only way?" The question is, "Why was God so merciful to those that disobey him, that he gave us any means of salvation?" AND, "With such a simple plan of salvation, why haven't I followed it?"
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blog -
kgaddy wrote:
What if the other people do not love you back, and worse, want to kill you?
Jesus faced this dilemma. He provided guidance in the gospels.
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I agree with all this. And I guess I'm trying to understand this with modern events.
Judah Himango wrote:
it's apparent he opted to forgive and welcome back with open arms, rather than condemn to hell.
But that is when they asked to be forgiven.In the meantime, does he expect all of us to close our eyes and take a sword to the head? I mean if that happens, all that believe in him are dead. I really do not mind living next to jews, muslims and everyone else for that matter. I just get upset with these terrorist, and when we try to defend ourselves, we end up being the racist ones. It makes no sense. We should be able to defend ourselves and still be good Christians, right? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
But that is when they asked to be forgiven.In the meantime, does he expect all of us to close our eyes and take a sword to the head?
It's a good question. I don't really know the full answer to it. I will comment that defense of one's physical life and loving other people are not necessarily mutually exclusive. On one hand, we know we shouldn't hate such people. On the other hand, it's not so easy to care and respect for people that want you dead, in practice! I'd say trying to reach those people's lives and trying to set them right with God is one way of showing Messiah's attitude towards them, even if it's just praying for people like that. Love is one of those things that's tough to fake; if you really don't give a crap about someone, you tend to show it. The unwritten side of that is, if you really do care for someone, you're bound to show it both physically and spiritually. That's about the best you can do for people like that, I'd say, is care for them because that's the way Messiah lived. Pray for them. That way, you actually are caring for them; you won't have a hard time showing that physically when the time comes.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Cool, Adnan. I enjoy talking with you and debating with you too, even if we usually disagree. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
The rest of the planet should take notice of you two. :)
-- 100% natural. No superstitious additives.
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
How about people that do good, but do not believe in him?
The question is not, "Why did God make this particular way to him, the only way?" The question is, "Why was God so merciful to those that disobey him, that he gave us any means of salvation?" AND, "With such a simple plan of salvation, why haven't I followed it?"
"Live long and prosper." - Spock
Jason Henderson
blogJason Henderson wrote:
The question is not, "Why did God make this particular way to him, the only way?"
I don't really have that question. I was more interested in what the Christian understanding was on how God would see a non-beliver who was a very good person and who lived a very good kind life.
Jason Henderson wrote:
The question is, "Why was God so merciful to those that disobey him, that he gave us any means of salvation?"
What disobedience are you talking about?
Jason Henderson wrote:
AND, "With such a simple plan of salvation, why haven't I followed it?"
If I was born to Christian parents who strongly instilled Christian beliefs in me as a child, I may have taken it. But (luckily I think) I was born to moderate Hindu parents, who allowed me to have my atheist views about life, and so I actually could choose what I wanted to believe. I understand what you are saying though. Know this because I have a few Christian friends, normally very good people, but at times, just a tad hyper-religious. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Um, I just thought I'd come in and represent the Jewish community to this discussion. My grandmother said, "You know what the meaning to any Jewish holiday is? They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat!" Feel free to ask questions. Depending where you live there aren't many Jews and we are often misunderstood. BTW, we don't believe in Hell.
leckey wrote:
Um, I just thought I'd come in and represent the Jewish community to this discussion.
Judah has been active in this thread - though he's not the typical Jew :-) It was he who taught me what a Jew means, I always thought it was a religion. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
True, but that's no reason to be an atheist.
Blast! An off-topic statement! :rolleyes: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. Also visit the Ultimate Toolbox blog (New) -
Um, I just thought I'd come in and represent the Jewish community to this discussion. My grandmother said, "You know what the meaning to any Jewish holiday is? They tried to kill us. We survived. Let's eat!" Feel free to ask questions. Depending where you live there aren't many Jews and we are often misunderstood. BTW, we don't believe in Hell.
I read once that Louis XIV once asked an advisor, "Show me a miracle" and the advisor replied, "The Jews". The fact that everyone has tried to kill them and they are still around! My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
