Linux for development
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Jim Crafton wrote:
I wish you the best of luck, and I hope the Force is strong in you.
Sounds like your in need of a :beer:. :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
Maybe, Poland lost in the very last minute today, which probably (certainly?) blows their WC chances, and I blew my shins out running today, they feel like someone pored acid on them. And I've spent the last 3 hours trying to fight with getting our new Turtle Beach Montego sound card to properly pull in sound from the SPDIF input. I can't believe: a) How incredibly crappy the drivers are and the associated software b) How stupid some of the UI is for configuring it c) How there's no Tech Support phone number! All you can do is fax something in! d) Arguing with my wife about what I'm typing and listening to her ask questions about what I'm doing, and who you are, and why I don't want to talk to her, and so on and so forth ad nauseam!!!! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Maybe, Poland lost in the very last minute today, which probably (certainly?) blows their WC chances, and I blew my shins out running today, they feel like someone pored acid on them. And I've spent the last 3 hours trying to fight with getting our new Turtle Beach Montego sound card to properly pull in sound from the SPDIF input. I can't believe: a) How incredibly crappy the drivers are and the associated software b) How stupid some of the UI is for configuring it c) How there's no Tech Support phone number! All you can do is fax something in! d) Arguing with my wife about what I'm typing and listening to her ask questions about what I'm doing, and who you are, and why I don't want to talk to her, and so on and so forth ad nauseam!!!! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Ok, make that two :beer:s! Jeremy Falcon
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Maybe, Poland lost in the very last minute today, which probably (certainly?) blows their WC chances, and I blew my shins out running today, they feel like someone pored acid on them. And I've spent the last 3 hours trying to fight with getting our new Turtle Beach Montego sound card to properly pull in sound from the SPDIF input. I can't believe: a) How incredibly crappy the drivers are and the associated software b) How stupid some of the UI is for configuring it c) How there's no Tech Support phone number! All you can do is fax something in! d) Arguing with my wife about what I'm typing and listening to her ask questions about what I'm doing, and who you are, and why I don't want to talk to her, and so on and so forth ad nauseam!!!! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Ok, make that two :beer:s! Jeremy Falcon
Yeah you drink one for me - at the rate she's nagging me right now, there's no beer on earth that will be strong enough - I'm looking for straight shots of Everclear! :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Oh. My. God. (rubs hands together in anticipation of a good rant) Gather round children...
2ASoft wrote:
thinking of
2ASoft wrote:
just to try development under it
2ASoft wrote:
using C++
And that's where you want to stop. Now. For the childrens sake. As for BSD, Linux, Solaris, et al, they pretty much all involve large amounts of pain*. Actually, large amounts of frustration, annoyance, rage, cursing, and just general hair pulling. Unbuntu is a nice distro in terms of ease of installation. And it's dead simple to add various software packages, especially dev packages. Why, might you ask? Two reasons: GCC and X!
2ASoft wrote:
compilers
Compilers? As in plural? Surely you jest, my good friend?! Surely you fail to see the light, the one true way, the path to both Freedom and Salvation: And that is the glory of the *nix toolset, GCC, also known as one of the slowest C++ compilers on the face of the earth! But hey it give you lots of mysterios warnings! And it's compliant (sort-of)! Seriously, GCC is pretty much it, and due to the political landscape of linux, as well as stellar incompetence on the part of older compiler vendors like Sun and HP (charging $5,000 for a dev toolchain on solaris is friggin ridiculous, considering it wasn't even very good either), means that any other competition has long given up on the platform. So GCC is where it's at, for better or worse. When using GCC, especially for C++, and *especially* if you include the STL, and doubly so if you make use of your own template classes, be prepared to twiddle your thumbs. I'm assuming your code base will consist of more than one file, and more than a 1000 LOC. If so, be prepared to either become a phenomenal sketch artist, or get really good at Solitaire. If your looking for a good IDE, just give up now. Oh, but Jim, that's just your own personal bitterness and cynicism showing, surely it can't be that bad, can it? Yes it can. Without fail, every single IDE I have tried under linux has sucked, to some degree or another. Think VS is annoying or sucky? Be prepared for snail blowing suckage at *least* several orders of a magnitude greater than anything you could possibly imagine. Broken build systems (hey KDevelop - can you hear me?) or two diffe
Got my 5! Boy, you make a person think the $12K for VSTS is a bargain at twice the price! Microsoft should hire to anti-promote Linux ;) Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
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Got my 5! Boy, you make a person think the $12K for VSTS is a bargain at twice the price! Microsoft should hire to anti-promote Linux ;) Rocky <>< Latest Post: Visual Studio 2005 Standard, whats missing? Blog: www.RockyMoore.com/TheCoder/[^]
Actually the 12K is probably a rip off based on the complaints I've heard here. But that seems consistent with other Enterprise class software - absolutely ridiculous prices for frequently crappy/overrated (Rational Rose anyone?) software. ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Yeah you drink one for me - at the rate she's nagging me right now, there's no beer on earth that will be strong enough - I'm looking for straight shots of Everclear! :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
...there's no beer on earth that will be strong enough...
At the moment I'm drinking Southwark Stout 7.4% and in the past I have had beers in Champagne bottles with corks, quad something or other brewed that are > 12% alcohol. Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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I hope this isnt that much of a programming question.... Anyways, I was just thinking of installing linux on one of my machines, you know, just to try development under it. I'll be using C++. Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)? I DO realize I could google all this, but we have such a nice helpfull community here hehe :-D rara avis in terris
If you don't want a bloated distro then try Gentoo[^], you'll have fun optimising it if you're into C++ :)
Formula 1 - Short for "F1 Racing" - named after the standard "help" key in Windows, it's a sport where participants desperately search through software help files trying to find actual documentation. It's tedious and somewhat cruel, most matches ending in a draw as no participant is able to find anything helpful. - Shog9
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I hope this isnt that much of a programming question.... Anyways, I was just thinking of installing linux on one of my machines, you know, just to try development under it. I'll be using C++. Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)? I DO realize I could google all this, but we have such a nice helpfull community here hehe :-D rara avis in terris
Personnaly I'd go with either Ubuntu/Kubuntu, Fedora or OpenSuse as a choice of distribution I'm currently using an old version of Ubuntu and have no problem with the drivers or performance infact most the time things work better than under the version of XP I have installed on the same machine. As far as compilers go you'll probably be better off sticking to GCC although Intel do a compiler for linux I'm just not sure on the details. As far as coding goes you could use something like KDevelop, or one of the GUI text editors like Kate/Kwrite which have some very nice features to support C++ development or you could venture into emacs/vi territory, I'd be wary of them though as they are fiddly to get to grips with. You could always have a look around at others as well as there are a number of development tools available.
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I hope this isnt that much of a programming question.... Anyways, I was just thinking of installing linux on one of my machines, you know, just to try development under it. I'll be using C++. Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)? I DO realize I could google all this, but we have such a nice helpfull community here hehe :-D rara avis in terris
For linux development it think you should give http://www.ubuntu.com/ desktop a try. Combine it with http://www.eclipse.org/tools/ as a good Alternative the Visual Studio. But you have to have a fast machine to get a good feel for the gui stuff. -- leffen
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I hope this isnt that much of a programming question.... Anyways, I was just thinking of installing linux on one of my machines, you know, just to try development under it. I'll be using C++. Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)? I DO realize I could google all this, but we have such a nice helpfull community here hehe :-D rara avis in terris
You have probably received more than enough info on the topic but I thought I would put my 2 cents in. -The KDE IDE can be problematic, but once you get your projects set up you are good to go. If you go with command line gcc, you will need to be very knowledgeable about makefiles. -For GUI development on *nix, I would go with Qt. If you have ever done any X Window/Motif programming, you will love Qt. The KDE was built with Qt as well as Google-Earth, as examples. -For game programming you are probably using OpenGL. Qt provides a few classes that you MUST use to draw in a OpenGL context. It seems a little restrictive at first but I have used it to draw maps for UPS. It takes some getting use to. Maybe they have improved it with Qt 4.0 (I'm using 3.5). -You can get the non-commercial version of Qt for free from Trolltech. Bonus: If you stay within the Qt framework and standard programming constructs, you should be able to port your game to Windows with minimum fuss (famous last words:~ ). Have fun!
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2ASoft wrote:
Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)?
If you insist on Linux (and I agree with Jeremy - it is not a real Unix), take a look at either some of Red Hat derivatives (like CentOS) or Novell/SUSE. For compilers, gcc is pretty much standard on Linux and is shipped with all distributions. If you are looking at a good IDE - forget it; if you have ever used Visual Studio, Linux IDEs will be nothing but frustration for you. Instead, just use some good editor. Speaking of editors, Unix programmers belong to one of two distinct groups: good people use vim[^] :rose: and villians use emacs[^] X| . Now, I am not going to tell you which one I prefer, cause I don't want to influence your decision ;) Good luck with Linux.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Speaking of editors, Unix programmers belong to one of two distinct groups: good people use vim[^] :rose: and villians use emacs[^]
really good people install a plugin for Visual Studio that makes it work like VIM ;) or just keep VIM in their send to menu in windows :-D
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
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Oh. My. God. (rubs hands together in anticipation of a good rant) Gather round children...
2ASoft wrote:
thinking of
2ASoft wrote:
just to try development under it
2ASoft wrote:
using C++
And that's where you want to stop. Now. For the childrens sake. As for BSD, Linux, Solaris, et al, they pretty much all involve large amounts of pain*. Actually, large amounts of frustration, annoyance, rage, cursing, and just general hair pulling. Unbuntu is a nice distro in terms of ease of installation. And it's dead simple to add various software packages, especially dev packages. Why, might you ask? Two reasons: GCC and X!
2ASoft wrote:
compilers
Compilers? As in plural? Surely you jest, my good friend?! Surely you fail to see the light, the one true way, the path to both Freedom and Salvation: And that is the glory of the *nix toolset, GCC, also known as one of the slowest C++ compilers on the face of the earth! But hey it give you lots of mysterios warnings! And it's compliant (sort-of)! Seriously, GCC is pretty much it, and due to the political landscape of linux, as well as stellar incompetence on the part of older compiler vendors like Sun and HP (charging $5,000 for a dev toolchain on solaris is friggin ridiculous, considering it wasn't even very good either), means that any other competition has long given up on the platform. So GCC is where it's at, for better or worse. When using GCC, especially for C++, and *especially* if you include the STL, and doubly so if you make use of your own template classes, be prepared to twiddle your thumbs. I'm assuming your code base will consist of more than one file, and more than a 1000 LOC. If so, be prepared to either become a phenomenal sketch artist, or get really good at Solitaire. If your looking for a good IDE, just give up now. Oh, but Jim, that's just your own personal bitterness and cynicism showing, surely it can't be that bad, can it? Yes it can. Without fail, every single IDE I have tried under linux has sucked, to some degree or another. Think VS is annoying or sucky? Be prepared for snail blowing suckage at *least* several orders of a magnitude greater than anything you could possibly imagine. Broken build systems (hey KDevelop - can you hear me?) or two diffe
i SO want to start with "you youngsters have it easy", but you speak of X, which i have heard about, and have avoided ever going anywhere near, so i will let you off :) still, in lots of respect you have it EASY! i get to do lots of development on SCO UNIX now, what were you saying about compilers and debuggers? our code base is pure C, with the occasional C++ program thrown in if you are good. debugging is a well known game. you have two options: a) wait for the program to crash, and hope the call stack makes everything clear. remember that once it has crashed ALL you will get is a call stack, maybe. you cannot get any information out of any of the variables, or if you can no one will tell you how. you do get the addresses, sometimes, which helps to spot NULL pointers being passed around, which is often something. of course, this assumes you are lucky. the number of times i have studied a call stack that tells me "the program core dumped while core dumping", so i have a call stack of a call stack (or something like that) which means zero information. b) having eliminated A most of the time you have fprintf(stderr, "..."); there is actually some good news here, you get to use VIM :-D now at first you might hate VIM, but when you discover the power of the "increment this number by one" function combined with macros then you are in debug heaven, relatively speaking. chain together __FILE__, __LINE__, and an incrementing number into a VIM macro and i can insert 50 debug statements into a single function in a couple of minutes! debugging the way god intended us to, or at least the department head. now i did mention C++, so it is time to consider this joy. i LIKE the idea of moving to C++, i get access to the STL, to collection classes, to a STRING class!!! no more manually tracking the size of my char * (massive sigh of heavenly relief) except that this is SCO. it comes with the STL, i am assured of this by people who do not have to support our old code base. it does NOT, it comes with about 7 classes from the STL, that are nothing like STL classes, have different interfaces, and do not do any of what i want. but they do have overlapping names, so you cannot easily call the STL classes instead. so i looked into BOOST (i was told i was not allowed to use it *aaaggghhhh*) and i found, to my joy, some proper STL classes hidden somewhere in a strange directory! except that the compiler we get for C++ cannot compile the templates *sob*. we did finally get the Qt framework installed on this box, along
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i SO want to start with "you youngsters have it easy", but you speak of X, which i have heard about, and have avoided ever going anywhere near, so i will let you off :) still, in lots of respect you have it EASY! i get to do lots of development on SCO UNIX now, what were you saying about compilers and debuggers? our code base is pure C, with the occasional C++ program thrown in if you are good. debugging is a well known game. you have two options: a) wait for the program to crash, and hope the call stack makes everything clear. remember that once it has crashed ALL you will get is a call stack, maybe. you cannot get any information out of any of the variables, or if you can no one will tell you how. you do get the addresses, sometimes, which helps to spot NULL pointers being passed around, which is often something. of course, this assumes you are lucky. the number of times i have studied a call stack that tells me "the program core dumped while core dumping", so i have a call stack of a call stack (or something like that) which means zero information. b) having eliminated A most of the time you have fprintf(stderr, "..."); there is actually some good news here, you get to use VIM :-D now at first you might hate VIM, but when you discover the power of the "increment this number by one" function combined with macros then you are in debug heaven, relatively speaking. chain together __FILE__, __LINE__, and an incrementing number into a VIM macro and i can insert 50 debug statements into a single function in a couple of minutes! debugging the way god intended us to, or at least the department head. now i did mention C++, so it is time to consider this joy. i LIKE the idea of moving to C++, i get access to the STL, to collection classes, to a STRING class!!! no more manually tracking the size of my char * (massive sigh of heavenly relief) except that this is SCO. it comes with the STL, i am assured of this by people who do not have to support our old code base. it does NOT, it comes with about 7 classes from the STL, that are nothing like STL classes, have different interfaces, and do not do any of what i want. but they do have overlapping names, so you cannot easily call the STL classes instead. so i looked into BOOST (i was told i was not allowed to use it *aaaggghhhh*) and i found, to my joy, some proper STL classes hidden somewhere in a strange directory! except that the compiler we get for C++ cannot compile the templates *sob*. we did finally get the Qt framework installed on this box, along
I feel for you - damn developing on SCO? Ickkkkk! But, I thought GCC ran on SCO? I know it does on the newer versions of SCO, maybe you guys have an older version of the OS? So if you're not using GCC, are you using some evil defunct compiler? Nasty! ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
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Jim Crafton wrote:
...there's no beer on earth that will be strong enough...
At the moment I'm drinking Southwark Stout 7.4% and in the past I have had beers in Champagne bottles with corks, quad something or other brewed that are > 12% alcohol. Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
Michael Martin wrote:
I'm drinking Southwark Stout 7.4%
Hmm. Our beers 'round these parts tend to have 5.5%. :sigh: Jeremy Falcon
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Yeah you drink one for me - at the rate she's nagging me right now, there's no beer on earth that will be strong enough - I'm looking for straight shots of Everclear! :) ¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire! Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)! SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0 0 rows returned Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
Jim Crafton wrote:
I'm looking for straight shots of Everclear!
Well it gets the job done. :laugh: Everclear is the only thing that's ever made me pass out actually. Jeremy Falcon
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Speaking of editors, Unix programmers belong to one of two distinct groups: good people use vim[^] :rose: and villians use emacs[^]
really good people install a plugin for Visual Studio that makes it work like VIM ;) or just keep VIM in their send to menu in windows :-D
zen is the art of being at one with the two'ness
feline_dracoform wrote:
really good people install a plugin for Visual Studio that makes it work like VIM or just keep VIM in their send to menu in windows
Ok, now you've done it. I just gotta know how to make the studio editor act like vim. I've hit :w so many times in the last year it isn't even funny anymore. Thanks very much, Larry
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2ASoft wrote:
Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)?
If you insist on Linux (and I agree with Jeremy - it is not a real Unix), take a look at either some of Red Hat derivatives (like CentOS) or Novell/SUSE. For compilers, gcc is pretty much standard on Linux and is shipped with all distributions. If you are looking at a good IDE - forget it; if you have ever used Visual Studio, Linux IDEs will be nothing but frustration for you. Instead, just use some good editor. Speaking of editors, Unix programmers belong to one of two distinct groups: good people use vim[^] :rose: and villians use emacs[^] X| . Now, I am not going to tell you which one I prefer, cause I don't want to influence your decision ;) Good luck with Linux.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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I hope this isnt that much of a programming question.... Anyways, I was just thinking of installing linux on one of my machines, you know, just to try development under it. I'll be using C++. Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)? I DO realize I could google all this, but we have such a nice helpfull community here hehe :-D rara avis in terris
I think it's important to separate a couple of aspects of this. First, there is your familiarity with Linux and/or UNIX alternatives. If you're a relatively new Linux user, familiar with C++ software development, but not very familiar with Linux or UNIX itself, the "best" answer may be very different than if you were. A lot of veteran Linux buffs prefer Debian-based distributions, as they are quite powerful and flexible for the power user. Ubuntu is another popular one among power users. But for developers who want to spend their time coding and debugging, rather than being a Linux power user configuring things, I recommend SuSE Linux 10.0. (10.1 is available, but I've been having trouble with ATI video support on that version). Since it's new, I'm still suggesting 10.0 for a smoother install. SuSE Linux is one of the easiest to install and use. It's graphical, including the OS installer, and the Linux config tools are rich and should be reasonably familiar to Windows folks. Second, in terms of GUI programming on Linux, and simpler Windowing development, you should definitely look at Qt. I believe it's the easiest to use, very mature and very powerful. The only drawback is that commercial applications will require a commercial license, which is well worth the money, but yet quite expensive for independent work. If you're porting a game on behalf of a publishing company (and therefore can afford to by a Qt license), then by all means, absolutely go with Qt. This will also give you Windows and OS X support too (if you by those licenses). Or *IF* you're developing an open source application (specifically GPL as I recall), Qt is available for use under the GPL for free. Finally, in terms of game writing, I don't have a lot of experience with that on Linux/UNIX boxes, but I suspect that you will want to use OpenGL for the actual game graphics, unless you're developing a simpler 2D game (like a card game). There may even be Linux windowing extensions for basic windows in OpenGL that will allow you to do the game graphics and GUI without needing Qt or something else. But you also have to be aware that the *commercial* Linux game market is virtually non-existent (and the UNIX one is a pale shadow of the Linux one), so I'm kind of assuming this is a home "side" project that you're interested in doing for fun, not profit. If you release it under the GPL, you can just use Qt for free, and I would strongly advise you to do just that in this case. In general, I don't have a favourite OS. I don'
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I hope this isnt that much of a programming question.... Anyways, I was just thinking of installing linux on one of my machines, you know, just to try development under it. I'll be using C++. Any suggestions for what flavor of linux and what compilers are better(best)? I DO realize I could google all this, but we have such a nice helpfull community here hehe :-D rara avis in terris
Whatever. Suse, Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Slackware, Mandriva... C/C++ IDEs: Anjuta, KDevelop, Code::Blocks (I recommend this last one because it's cross-platform). GUIs: Glade, QtDesigner, KDevelop (Designer). It's GNU/Linux, not Linux (because it's only the kernel developed by Linus and his friends).