Linux heads
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
What distro are you running? I had mono installed in just a few minutes on Ubuntu 6.06 - everything ran just fine. I'm now building mono from source on this system instead - again, no problems once you ensure you've got make, autoconf, etc... installed as well. Poke through your distro's package manager for packages that contain the string 'mono'. BTW: My biggest gripe with mono is the lack of a proper debugger. There is one, but it's only available in the source tree, as it's not really up to snuff. -- Russell Morris Morbo: "WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
Ray Cassick wrote:
How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
Face it, Linux, Mono et al are there because there still are geeks in the world that define "user experience" as "the build it yourself from undocumented, incomplete, most complicated list of links and dependencies and command line compilers, but when you get it working, it feels better than sex". THAT is the true definition of a geek, and they flock to the likes of Linux and co. Marc Pensieve Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
That's why open source is a crock of shit, and I will never use it in a commercial product. How can you trust something developed with no regard for standards or even a minimum level of compatibility with other products?
Software Zen:
delete this; -
What distro are you running? I had mono installed in just a few minutes on Ubuntu 6.06 - everything ran just fine. I'm now building mono from source on this system instead - again, no problems once you ensure you've got make, autoconf, etc... installed as well. Poke through your distro's package manager for packages that contain the string 'mono'. BTW: My biggest gripe with mono is the lack of a proper debugger. There is one, but it's only available in the source tree, as it's not really up to snuff. -- Russell Morris Morbo: "WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
Russell Morris wrote:
once you ensure you've got make, autoconf, etc... installed as well
Which is the point. The tigress is here :-D
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
Well, I would suggest a different distro, some are much better than others with their packaging systems. Unix/Linux was never created for the average user. Granted it has come a long way, but the fact remains if you want to get anywhere with it you're going to have to learn about it first. Albeit really annoying to have to trace down a dependency no matter your comfort level. I agree there's a long way to go before it realy ever challenges the desktop like Windows and Macs do. Jeremy Falcon
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Russell Morris wrote:
once you ensure you've got make, autoconf, etc... installed as well
Which is the point. The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote:
Which is the point.
Developers can't be expected to be knowledgable about their development tools? Not to be rude, but that's a bit "VB", isn't it? ;P make and autoconf are key pieces of the build environment. A Linux distro that is attempting to be 'user friendly' won't necessarily install developer tools like this. If the original poster had been complaining about obtuse desktop installs, lack of driver support, X configuration bizareness, etc... I'm right there with him :) -- Russell Morris Morbo: "WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
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That's why open source is a crock of shit, and I will never use it in a commercial product. How can you trust something developed with no regard for standards or even a minimum level of compatibility with other products?
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
How can you trust something developed with no regard for standards or even a minimum level of compatibility with other products?
It gets easier every day... :~
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That's why open source is a crock of shit, and I will never use it in a commercial product. How can you trust something developed with no regard for standards or even a minimum level of compatibility with other products?
Software Zen:
delete this;Gary R. Wheeler wrote:
How can you trust something developed with no regard for standards or even a minimum level of compatibility with other products?
Exactly my thoughts about IE, Office, etc. :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
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Well, I would suggest a different distro, some are much better than others with their packaging systems. Unix/Linux was never created for the average user. Granted it has come a long way, but the fact remains if you want to get anywhere with it you're going to have to learn about it first. Albeit really annoying to have to trace down a dependency no matter your comfort level. I agree there's a long way to go before it realy ever challenges the desktop like Windows and Macs do. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Unix/Linux was never created for the average user. Granted it has come a long way, but the fact remains if you want to get anywhere with it you're going to have to learn about it first.
:omg: Did you post the exact same phrase some time ago or did I just have a deja vu? I knew what all the pharase was at the moment I started reading it. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
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What distro are you running? I had mono installed in just a few minutes on Ubuntu 6.06 - everything ran just fine. I'm now building mono from source on this system instead - again, no problems once you ensure you've got make, autoconf, etc... installed as well. Poke through your distro's package manager for packages that contain the string 'mono'. BTW: My biggest gripe with mono is the lack of a proper debugger. There is one, but it's only available in the source tree, as it's not really up to snuff. -- Russell Morris Morbo: "WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
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Trollslayer wrote:
Which is the point.
Developers can't be expected to be knowledgable about their development tools? Not to be rude, but that's a bit "VB", isn't it? ;P make and autoconf are key pieces of the build environment. A Linux distro that is attempting to be 'user friendly' won't necessarily install developer tools like this. If the original poster had been complaining about obtuse desktop installs, lack of driver support, X configuration bizareness, etc... I'm right there with him :) -- Russell Morris Morbo: "WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!"
I don't mind being knowledgeable about my tools, but jeeeeez. I don't WANT or NEED to have the code really. They should be usable out of the box and help me get my job done. The uncanny part is that the OS was a cake walk to install and set up. So far the OS has not given me any issues at all outside of the fact that it seems to take forever for my USB flash drive to mount.
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Well, I would suggest a different distro, some are much better than others with their packaging systems. Unix/Linux was never created for the average user. Granted it has come a long way, but the fact remains if you want to get anywhere with it you're going to have to learn about it first. Albeit really annoying to have to trace down a dependency no matter your comfort level. I agree there's a long way to go before it realy ever challenges the desktop like Windows and Macs do. Jeremy Falcon
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Well, I would suggest a different distro, some are much better than others with their packaging systems. Unix/Linux was never created for the average user. Granted it has come a long way, but the fact remains if you want to get anywhere with it you're going to have to learn about it first. Albeit really annoying to have to trace down a dependency no matter your comfort level. I agree there's a long way to go before it realy ever challenges the desktop like Windows and Macs do. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
...if you want to get anywhere with it you're going to have to learn about it first.
I agree, and I plan to learn as much about it as I can because I am going to have to support it for an embedded product within the next year, but I did not plan on having to learn everything there was to know about every bit of software on the damn box also :)
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
My advice is stick with the official distubutions. You may have to wait but you are then getting a tested install environment. If you start down loaded half developed versions that haven't been tested properly with whatever flavour of Linux you're using then you're going to get problems so by sticking to the official versions for the ditros you kind avoid all that beta testing nonsense. At a guess Suse 10.1 should come with a working ( sort of ) version of mono. ( From what I've seen of it so far I don't consider mono to be usable from a productive point of view yet, too much farting about ) I'm expecting Suse 11 to have a usable version of mono on it but that probably wont be out till the end of the year and I could be wrong, depends on how much work gets put into it between now and then. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "So keep that smile on your face. Have a drink to help you sleep at night. They got what they desired. We're passive in their brave new world." New Model Army
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
No wonder so many consider open source just another form of crack?
“Profanity is the attempt of a lazy and feeble mind to express itself forcefully”
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My advice is stick with the official distubutions. You may have to wait but you are then getting a tested install environment. If you start down loaded half developed versions that haven't been tested properly with whatever flavour of Linux you're using then you're going to get problems so by sticking to the official versions for the ditros you kind avoid all that beta testing nonsense. At a guess Suse 10.1 should come with a working ( sort of ) version of mono. ( From what I've seen of it so far I don't consider mono to be usable from a productive point of view yet, too much farting about ) I'm expecting Suse 11 to have a usable version of mono on it but that probably wont be out till the end of the year and I could be wrong, depends on how much work gets put into it between now and then. pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "So keep that smile on your face. Have a drink to help you sleep at night. They got what they desired. We're passive in their brave new world." New Model Army
pseudonym67 wrote:
You may have to wait but you are then getting a tested install environment.
Well... I have problems at work with people using their favourite distribution and then someone else finding that distribution needs a load of patches etc. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
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pseudonym67 wrote:
You may have to wait but you are then getting a tested install environment.
Well... I have problems at work with people using their favourite distribution and then someone else finding that distribution needs a load of patches etc. Elaine :rose: The tigress is here :-D
Trollslayer wrote:
Well... I have problems at work with people using their favourite distribution and then someone else finding that distribution needs a load of patches etc.
I can't speak for or comment on other distibutions cause I simply don't use them. I tried Suse liked it stayed with it. As Suse is done by Novell and Mono is owned by Novell I think, I'm still quite safe in saying the Suse 11 will probably have a working verison of mono. As a seperate point if it's a work environment why are different flavours of Linux allowed. I mean if it was a windows company they wouldn't allow everyone to run there favourite version of windows as you're bound to get some twonk insisting that they'll only use windows 3.1 one and swear that the whole world of computing went to pot with the release of windows 3.11 pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "So keep that smile on your face. Have a drink to help you sleep at night. They got what they desired. We're passive in their brave new world." New Model Army
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Trollslayer wrote:
Well... I have problems at work with people using their favourite distribution and then someone else finding that distribution needs a load of patches etc.
I can't speak for or comment on other distibutions cause I simply don't use them. I tried Suse liked it stayed with it. As Suse is done by Novell and Mono is owned by Novell I think, I'm still quite safe in saying the Suse 11 will probably have a working verison of mono. As a seperate point if it's a work environment why are different flavours of Linux allowed. I mean if it was a windows company they wouldn't allow everyone to run there favourite version of windows as you're bound to get some twonk insisting that they'll only use windows 3.1 one and swear that the whole world of computing went to pot with the release of windows 3.11 pseudonym67 My Articles[^] "So keep that smile on your face. Have a drink to help you sleep at night. They got what they desired. We're passive in their brave new world." New Model Army
The issue of different distributions is something else that I will have to tackle in the long term and promises to be great....fun :evil-grin: The tigress is here :-D
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NOTE: I almost just plopped this into the Lounge but at the last minute figured this was way more 'ranty' than was supposed to be there so I put it here. What the heck is it with these Open Source people? All I want to do is install mono and do some work with it. Can I just install mono and have a decent development experience? NOPE! I have to install an IDE also. I can dig that, after all you can install the .NET framework and just write your code all day in notepad and then drop to the command line and compile it, why should Linux be any different. So... I do some searching and find Monodevelop. Cool, I figure I will just install that rpm and then be up and running right? NOPE! Monodeveloop installs, you guessed it, JUST monodevelop. There is a dependency list as long as my arm of junk that I have to install first. Oh yeah, and I better get the order right too otherwise I am screwed down into the land of obtuse error message hell! Not to mention that most of the dependencies do not seem to offer just a binary installer but I have to DL the freaking source code to build them first then I can install them. Oh, but wait, some of them have dependencies too. Oh happy day, and some of them are source only distros as well. Yeah! Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year, and every year it ends up seeming like it just gets worse and worse? How can anyone work in an environment like this? How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
Ray Cassick wrote:
Am I the only one that tries to deal with this freaking Opensource thing every year
It's OK, you're just a slow learner :-)
Ray Cassick wrote:
How can a group of people honestly think this is a productive and good way to work?
I think the right term is 'groupthink' - where the group all believe the same thing, and everyone assumes it's right, because the others believe it. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
