Middle East
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As an Israely, and a peace seeker, I must stand against what is read between your lines: The plaesitnians ARE miserable, and have suffered from the Israely occupation for 35 years now. that said, I can rightfully say that who started this fuol play were the other side. In august 2000 they were VERY close to get what they will get eventually, a country on almost all the teritories captured in 67. they will never get what they demand on the refugees part. Irael cannot accept a couple of millions of plaestinians in it's territory as citizens. All the refugees will have the opportunity to come and settle in the Palestinian country. to claim otherwise will be the same as if I, today, will claim back my grandfather house in Germany, which he had to leave in 36. I do not, because I have a country, a place that is mine. I do hope that people in the world will know that there are people in Israel that wish peace, and work hard to get it quick, but plz understand our situation, last week was our Passover holiday, (it's pretty close to Christmas in nature) and on the evening of the holiday we had a suicide bomb in a hotel, where people were celebrating, and 25 men, weomen and kids lost their life, more than 130 wounded (some lost hands, legs etc.). no country can live with that as the regular life. wish for peace Best regards Noam Noam Ben Haim Web Developer Israel
Noam Ben Haim wrote: In august 2000 they were VERY close to get what they will get eventually, a country on almost all the teritories captured in 67. Wasn't that a verbal rather than a written offer, that Israel wouldn't put in writting ? Noam Ben Haim wrote: I do hope that people in the world will know that there are people in Israel that wish peace, I think most people realise that most Palestinians and most Israelis wish peace, however there is a minority on both sides that will never be satisfied. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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As an Israely, and a peace seeker, I must stand against what is read between your lines: The plaesitnians ARE miserable, and have suffered from the Israely occupation for 35 years now. that said, I can rightfully say that who started this fuol play were the other side. In august 2000 they were VERY close to get what they will get eventually, a country on almost all the teritories captured in 67. they will never get what they demand on the refugees part. Irael cannot accept a couple of millions of plaestinians in it's territory as citizens. All the refugees will have the opportunity to come and settle in the Palestinian country. to claim otherwise will be the same as if I, today, will claim back my grandfather house in Germany, which he had to leave in 36. I do not, because I have a country, a place that is mine. I do hope that people in the world will know that there are people in Israel that wish peace, and work hard to get it quick, but plz understand our situation, last week was our Passover holiday, (it's pretty close to Christmas in nature) and on the evening of the holiday we had a suicide bomb in a hotel, where people were celebrating, and 25 men, weomen and kids lost their life, more than 130 wounded (some lost hands, legs etc.). no country can live with that as the regular life. wish for peace Best regards Noam Noam Ben Haim Web Developer Israel
Noam Ben Haim wrote: the refugees will have the opportunity to come and settle in the Palestinian country. to claim otherwise will be the same as if I, today, will claim back my grandfather house in Germany, which he had to leave in 36. I do not, because I have a country, a place that is mine. You could demand compensation as so many others already have done. Noam Ben Haim wrote: the evening of the holiday we had a suicide bomb in a hotel, where people were celebrating, and 25 men, weomen and kids lost their life, more than 130 wounded (some lost hands, legs etc.). no country can live with that as the regular life. It is terrible and horrible and for that I agree with you. But consider this : it is not just somebody placing a bomb and running away. It's people blowing themselves up because they see no other solution. When Isreali troops demolish orchards & tear down houses , who can expect the Palestinians to just sit back and weep ? Why does Isreal ask for stronger actions againts terrorists by Arafat while at the same time destroying prisons & buildings of the Palestinian police force thereby seriously diminishing there capacity to comply? If Israeli troops keep harassing & humiliating the common Palestinian they are only driving more people into the waiting arms of extremists.
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Of course Islam hates Christians Who said that ???? Thats not true. Islam gives all sort respect to all the religions. And as far as christains are concerned, the respect for their religion is highest among all the religions in the eye of islam. Even a muslim man is allowed to get married a christain girl as islam ensures full protection of christain women. Remember that majority of muslim scholars believe that in islam, man is not allowed to get married a jew or a hindu girl. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Israel has had 5 bombers this last week and 25 in the last 2 or 3 months Ok tell me one thing, as you know that among the last five bombers women also commit suicide. But whats the reason ??? The reason is simple and that is "revenge". What do you think about the condition of a woman whose brother, son, husband and father became the victim of advance Israelian weapons. They have no alternative left except to teach the lesson to advance weapons holders. Israel is doing same thing in Palestine in the name of so called "terrorism" as what the US did in Afghanistan. But there is lot of diffference between Afghanistan and Palestine. Israel is using all sorts of force using advance weapons to crush Palestinians. So ,Palestinians also reserves right to defend themselves. But poor Palestinians do not have such advance technology to defend themselves from advance Israelian weapons, so the only alternative left is to sacrifice their lives in order to teach the lesson to their opponents and in this war muslim women are also taking equal part with their brothers. In islam a person who sacrifice his/her life in the sake of religion or islamic territory, is given a title "Shaheed" which is a sacred term to all muslims. Today muslims are fighting for the sake of their religion and territory in Palestine and Kashmir and the western world is calling them "terrorists" Imran Farooqui
Imran Farooqui wrote: Even a muslim man is allowed to get married a christain girl as islam ensures full protection of christain women. Remember that majority of muslim scholars believe that in islam, man is not allowed to get married a jew or a hindu girl. There seem to be many interpretations of the Quran ( koran ) similar to the interpretations of the Christian Bible. Note I personally know people who had to convert to Islam to marry. Imran Farooqui wrote: Israel is using all sorts of force using advance weapons to crush Palestinians. Something only mentioned slightly in the media last week, was the number of Palestinians executing other Palestinians for crimes of collaboration. Imran Farooqui wrote: Today muslims are fighting for the sake of their religion and territory in Palestine and Kashmir and the western world is calling them "terrorists" Don't many Muslims call the Western nations Imperialists and other rude connotational names as well ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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Noam Ben Haim wrote: the refugees will have the opportunity to come and settle in the Palestinian country. to claim otherwise will be the same as if I, today, will claim back my grandfather house in Germany, which he had to leave in 36. I do not, because I have a country, a place that is mine. You could demand compensation as so many others already have done. Noam Ben Haim wrote: the evening of the holiday we had a suicide bomb in a hotel, where people were celebrating, and 25 men, weomen and kids lost their life, more than 130 wounded (some lost hands, legs etc.). no country can live with that as the regular life. It is terrible and horrible and for that I agree with you. But consider this : it is not just somebody placing a bomb and running away. It's people blowing themselves up because they see no other solution. When Isreali troops demolish orchards & tear down houses , who can expect the Palestinians to just sit back and weep ? Why does Isreal ask for stronger actions againts terrorists by Arafat while at the same time destroying prisons & buildings of the Palestinian police force thereby seriously diminishing there capacity to comply? If Israeli troops keep harassing & humiliating the common Palestinian they are only driving more people into the waiting arms of extremists.
William De Prêtre wrote: But consider this : it is not just somebody placing a bomb and running away. It's people blowing themselves up because they see no other solution. I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this point. I think it IS people placing a bomb and 'running away'... well they don't really run because they arn't on the scene. The people placing the bomb are the ones who BRAINWASH some stupid idiot to blow themself up. I don't think it is the bomber himself who places the bomb. Also you can't say that the bomber even cares about the stupid land war, I bet the majority of them are people who consider suicide anyways and this way they can make money for their family (Saddam is now paying $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers). -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
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William De Prêtre wrote: But consider this : it is not just somebody placing a bomb and running away. It's people blowing themselves up because they see no other solution. I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this point. I think it IS people placing a bomb and 'running away'... well they don't really run because they arn't on the scene. The people placing the bomb are the ones who BRAINWASH some stupid idiot to blow themself up. I don't think it is the bomber himself who places the bomb. Also you can't say that the bomber even cares about the stupid land war, I bet the majority of them are people who consider suicide anyways and this way they can make money for their family (Saddam is now paying $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers). -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Point taken. But why do so many young Palestinian people see suicide as the way out for them and their families ?
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What do you guys think of whats happening in the Middle East?
Somebody said to me the other day, "Maybe old Adolf had the right idea". As England was partly responsible for creating the situation in the Middle East by dropping the Jews back in there after the second world war. I feel we should be doing a little more to help. Lets face it, neither side is going to give up its fight. They both have extremists elements who won't change their positions. Until cooler heads have more say then this cycle will continue until both sides wipe each other out. Michael :-)
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Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Of course Islam hates Christians Who said that ???? Thats not true. Islam gives all sort respect to all the religions. And as far as christains are concerned, the respect for their religion is highest among all the religions in the eye of islam. Even a muslim man is allowed to get married a christain girl as islam ensures full protection of christain women. Remember that majority of muslim scholars believe that in islam, man is not allowed to get married a jew or a hindu girl. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Israel has had 5 bombers this last week and 25 in the last 2 or 3 months Ok tell me one thing, as you know that among the last five bombers women also commit suicide. But whats the reason ??? The reason is simple and that is "revenge". What do you think about the condition of a woman whose brother, son, husband and father became the victim of advance Israelian weapons. They have no alternative left except to teach the lesson to advance weapons holders. Israel is doing same thing in Palestine in the name of so called "terrorism" as what the US did in Afghanistan. But there is lot of diffference between Afghanistan and Palestine. Israel is using all sorts of force using advance weapons to crush Palestinians. So ,Palestinians also reserves right to defend themselves. But poor Palestinians do not have such advance technology to defend themselves from advance Israelian weapons, so the only alternative left is to sacrifice their lives in order to teach the lesson to their opponents and in this war muslim women are also taking equal part with their brothers. In islam a person who sacrifice his/her life in the sake of religion or islamic territory, is given a title "Shaheed" which is a sacred term to all muslims. Today muslims are fighting for the sake of their religion and territory in Palestine and Kashmir and the western world is calling them "terrorists" Imran Farooqui
Imran Farooqui wrote: Ok tell me one thing, as you know that among the last five bombers women also commit suicide. Did anyone ever consider the fact that maybe these suicide bombers are not really suicide bombers but victims who are kidnapped, drugged and forced to blow themselves up? (2b || !2b)
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Point taken. But why do so many young Palestinian people see suicide as the way out for them and their families ?
Lots of people in lots of cultures commit suicide for various reasons. As far as them thinking it is 'the way out' I would think this is because of all of the money their families get. -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
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Lots of people in lots of cultures commit suicide for various reasons. As far as them thinking it is 'the way out' I would think this is because of all of the money their families get. -Jack To an optimist the glass is half full. To a pessimist the glass is half empty. To a programmer the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
A few points from my point of view (very close to the issue...): 1. at the beginning it was only Muslim fanatics that commited those suicde bombing, nowadays these are young palestinians that has very little to do with religion. 2.they don't commit suicide. they murder people in their cofee places, malls, buses and homes, and that is unforigvable. 3. I agree that the palestinians can't sit and weep while we israelis keep the occupation. 4. Arafat is pretty much responsible for what is happening in the west bank these days, as well as PM Sharon. you can see how big is our dilema... Best regards Wish for peace N Noam Ben Haim Web Developer
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Noam Ben Haim wrote: In august 2000 they were VERY close to get what they will get eventually, a country on almost all the teritories captured in 67. Wasn't that a verbal rather than a written offer, that Israel wouldn't put in writting ? Noam Ben Haim wrote: I do hope that people in the world will know that there are people in Israel that wish peace, I think most people realise that most Palestinians and most Israelis wish peace, however there is a minority on both sides that will never be satisfied. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
****Colin Davies wrote: Wasn't that a verbal rather than a written offer, that Israel wouldn't put in writting ? I agree, PM barak didn't go all the way, but it was a great way that he walked. I don't think taht as he says he "picked every rock" but rather went a long way, longer than any other Israeli leader. ****Colin Davies wrote: I think most people realise that most Palestinians and most Israelis wish peace, however there is a minority on both sides that will never be satisfied The problem, IMHO, are not the minorities in both sides, but the leaders of both sides. Sharon and Arafat are not part of the solution, but part of the problem. Noam Ben Haim Web Developer
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Imran Farooqui wrote: Even a muslim man is allowed to get married a christain girl as islam ensures full protection of christain women. Remember that majority of muslim scholars believe that in islam, man is not allowed to get married a jew or a hindu girl. There seem to be many interpretations of the Quran ( koran ) similar to the interpretations of the Christian Bible. Note I personally know people who had to convert to Islam to marry. Imran Farooqui wrote: Israel is using all sorts of force using advance weapons to crush Palestinians. Something only mentioned slightly in the media last week, was the number of Palestinians executing other Palestinians for crimes of collaboration. Imran Farooqui wrote: Today muslims are fighting for the sake of their religion and territory in Palestine and Kashmir and the western world is calling them "terrorists" Don't many Muslims call the Western nations Imperialists and other rude connotational names as well ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
One important issue: 2 differences between Afghanistan and the West bank: 1. the palestinians are fighting for a country, Bin Laden is fighting the west out of ideaology (rotten how it may be). 2. Afghanistan was a country driven by dark forces of the Talibahn, the west bank is being occupied by Israel, and the Pal don't have a country. N Noam Ben Haim Web Developer
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****Colin Davies wrote: Wasn't that a verbal rather than a written offer, that Israel wouldn't put in writting ? I agree, PM barak didn't go all the way, but it was a great way that he walked. I don't think taht as he says he "picked every rock" but rather went a long way, longer than any other Israeli leader. ****Colin Davies wrote: I think most people realise that most Palestinians and most Israelis wish peace, however there is a minority on both sides that will never be satisfied The problem, IMHO, are not the minorities in both sides, but the leaders of both sides. Sharon and Arafat are not part of the solution, but part of the problem. Noam Ben Haim Web Developer
Noam Ben Haim wrote: but the leaders of both sides. Sharon and Arafat are not part of the solution, but part of the problem. Yes, I have noticed there seems to be a personal hatred between them. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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Somebody said to me the other day, "Maybe old Adolf had the right idea". As England was partly responsible for creating the situation in the Middle East by dropping the Jews back in there after the second world war. I feel we should be doing a little more to help. Lets face it, neither side is going to give up its fight. They both have extremists elements who won't change their positions. Until cooler heads have more say then this cycle will continue until both sides wipe each other out. Michael :-)
Michael P Butler wrote: Somebody said to me the other day, "Maybe old Adolf had the right idea". Now that's a nice idea. I'm sure my grandparents, who survived "old Adolf"'s death camps, would love a second round. Michael P Butler wrote: As England was partly responsible for creating the situation in the Middle East by dropping the Jews back in there after the second world war. I feel we should be doing a little more to help. I wonder what would that "help" mean ? Omer :( :( :( :( :(( !!!!
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Michael P Butler wrote: Somebody said to me the other day, "Maybe old Adolf had the right idea". Now that's a nice idea. I'm sure my grandparents, who survived "old Adolf"'s death camps, would love a second round. Michael P Butler wrote: As England was partly responsible for creating the situation in the Middle East by dropping the Jews back in there after the second world war. I feel we should be doing a little more to help. I wonder what would that "help" mean ? Omer :( :( :( :( :(( !!!!
Omer S. wrote: I wonder what would that "help" mean ? Sit both sides down in a room and don't let them out until a deal is agreed. The English and the Irish managed to work out a deal, it has its problems but the terrorist threat is much decreased. South Africa has made great leaps with its problems. It is possible if people really want peace. Michael :-)
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Michael P Butler wrote: Somebody said to me the other day, "Maybe old Adolf had the right idea". Now that's a nice idea. I'm sure my grandparents, who survived "old Adolf"'s death camps, would love a second round. Michael P Butler wrote: As England was partly responsible for creating the situation in the Middle East by dropping the Jews back in there after the second world war. I feel we should be doing a little more to help. I wonder what would that "help" mean ? Omer :( :( :( :( :(( !!!!
Omer S. wrote: Now that's a nice idea. I'm sure my grandparents, who survived "old Adolf"'s death camps, would love a second round. It certainly isn't anything any normal person would want to see happen again. However it does indicate that people's attidude towards Israel is changing. Israel was always regarded as the good guys in certain western quarters. There recent behaviour however is starting to put them in a very bad light. Michael :-)
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Omer S. wrote: I wonder what would that "help" mean ? Sit both sides down in a room and don't let them out until a deal is agreed. The English and the Irish managed to work out a deal, it has its problems but the terrorist threat is much decreased. South Africa has made great leaps with its problems. It is possible if people really want peace. Michael :-)
Michael P Butler wrote: Sit both sides down in a room and don't let them out until a deal is agreed. Sure, but another idea is to give them a common enemy, it worked in Independency Day. Since we can't rouse aliens at will, maybe the rest of the world should start attacking both Palestine and Israel. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
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Michael P Butler wrote: Sit both sides down in a room and don't let them out until a deal is agreed. Sure, but another idea is to give them a common enemy, it worked in Independency Day. Since we can't rouse aliens at will, maybe the rest of the world should start attacking both Palestine and Israel. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I think it's interesting that we often qu-ote each other in our sigs and attribute the qu-otes to "The Lounge". --- Daniel Fergusson, "The Lounge"
****Colin Davies wrote: maybe the rest of the world should start attacking both Palestine and Israel. Probably not a good idea. Israel has nukes doesn't it. And if there was ever a country who would use them when their backs are up against a wall then it is them. They do have a tendency to overreact to situations. Michael :-)
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What do you guys think of whats happening in the Middle East?
Well, I'm from the middle east. I'll tell you what I think - we're in a shitty situation here! I'm not sure if there's any soulution to the palestinian-israeli conflict at all. And what really annoys is the way CNN shows us.. they only showing what we do, not what the terrorist do. We got a bad image, we seem like terrorist, while they are bombing us every day and bringing death to many innocent people. it's unbeleivable. If such thing would happen in USA, I don't know what would happen to them. You saw what happend after the WTC. - Dan "Intel inside - Idiot outside"
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What do you guys think of whats happening in the Middle East?
I don't want to choose a side in this war, 'cause IMHO everybody is wrong. Arafat is using undescriminate violence against a democracy and civilian targets, when peaceful actions would have been far more efficient. The moral position is the key to gain support of western public opinions. Sharon dreams to kill Arafat since 30 years, and will try to realize his dream at quiet any cost (I remember Libanon 1982, with Beyrouth invaded by Tsahal lead by Sharon, without the authorization of his governement !). the US envoy Philip Habib said in this occasion that "Sharon is an assassin, animated by hatred against the Palestinians. I gave to Arafat guarantees that the Palestinians [ remainder in Beirut ] would not be touched, but Sharon did not honour them. A promise of this man is not worth nothing", (translated from Le Monde Diplomatique ) Only a political action would be efficient to stop this, weapons can't be an answer (by analogy with the Guerre d'Algerie (1954-1962), where French Army used every military solution, even the dirtiest ones, from razzia to torture, probably won on the military plan, but finally lose on the political one, which is the most important). The problem is EU is politically too weak and divided, when Bush's USA are inconsistent and selfish, so I don't see any solution for a while Another annoying thing is the repetive use of the word "Terrorist", by each side. Is it even possible to give an objective definition of this word ? It's funny how we get started. They get their money from the things on you. They get your money and the girls and the fame. I only do it for the fun. That's my game. KoRn, "Counting"
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As an Israely, and a peace seeker, I must stand against what is read between your lines: The plaesitnians ARE miserable, and have suffered from the Israely occupation for 35 years now. that said, I can rightfully say that who started this fuol play were the other side. In august 2000 they were VERY close to get what they will get eventually, a country on almost all the teritories captured in 67. they will never get what they demand on the refugees part. Irael cannot accept a couple of millions of plaestinians in it's territory as citizens. All the refugees will have the opportunity to come and settle in the Palestinian country. to claim otherwise will be the same as if I, today, will claim back my grandfather house in Germany, which he had to leave in 36. I do not, because I have a country, a place that is mine. I do hope that people in the world will know that there are people in Israel that wish peace, and work hard to get it quick, but plz understand our situation, last week was our Passover holiday, (it's pretty close to Christmas in nature) and on the evening of the holiday we had a suicide bomb in a hotel, where people were celebrating, and 25 men, weomen and kids lost their life, more than 130 wounded (some lost hands, legs etc.). no country can live with that as the regular life. wish for peace Best regards Noam Noam Ben Haim Web Developer Israel
Guardian (UK) article (things that you don't see in your media).. The bodies, the chaos - and the debris of war in a city under siege