Custom software development
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I have been asked to build an application and a website (they work together). They have to perform a few tasks, basically managing some simple data. The website replicates the data in a read-only fashion. The system is quite complex, uses SQL Server and should be multi-client. Since this kind of application could be useful to other customers (operating in the same market), I wonder whether or not selling them too the application is fair. We (me and the primary customer) have not yet decided the "licensing" statements (I'm not an employee). I thought, anyway, to give them the application and the site under a closed-source license. So the questions are: - How much could I ask them? (someone told me at least 7-800 Euros) - Is it fair to sell the same application to other customers, supposing they allow me to? - Should I give them the source? And in this case, Should I ask more money? :-D This is my first "big" work, at least compared with other small websites I have done before, so any suggestion is really welcome, specially from the ones of you that are professionals. Thanks. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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I have been asked to build an application and a website (they work together). They have to perform a few tasks, basically managing some simple data. The website replicates the data in a read-only fashion. The system is quite complex, uses SQL Server and should be multi-client. Since this kind of application could be useful to other customers (operating in the same market), I wonder whether or not selling them too the application is fair. We (me and the primary customer) have not yet decided the "licensing" statements (I'm not an employee). I thought, anyway, to give them the application and the site under a closed-source license. So the questions are: - How much could I ask them? (someone told me at least 7-800 Euros) - Is it fair to sell the same application to other customers, supposing they allow me to? - Should I give them the source? And in this case, Should I ask more money? :-D This is my first "big" work, at least compared with other small websites I have done before, so any suggestion is really welcome, specially from the ones of you that are professionals. Thanks. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
I have written a commercial application which started out as a request from a company to write them the application. The app was sold to them initially but over time i have made the application more generic so that it fits the requirements of other companies within the same market/industry. I have since solde to a further 2 companies. My initial sale of the software was a once off payment but becuase the application now requires quite a bit of support and enhancements, i am charging them a monthll licence and support fee. So to answer your 3 questions (In my opinion) - The cost of the app depends on its complexity and time it will take you to write it. - It depends on what agreement you have with the company. I have written a product for a company where they insisted on owning the IP (intellectual Property) and the source code in which case i cannot sell to anyone else. This is mainly because the application is based on company sensitive formulease etc...I have another application where i own the IP and source code and can sell to whoever i want. - Dont give them source code unless its part of the agreement as mentioned above.Remember, as long as you own the source code, you are the only person who can make any future enhancements....so you can secure future income... Just make sure you backup..backup..backup...the source in a few place to keep it safe ! I've lost mine once...very big mistake ! Cheers, Craig ** I'd rather try and fail than fail to try ;) **
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I have written a commercial application which started out as a request from a company to write them the application. The app was sold to them initially but over time i have made the application more generic so that it fits the requirements of other companies within the same market/industry. I have since solde to a further 2 companies. My initial sale of the software was a once off payment but becuase the application now requires quite a bit of support and enhancements, i am charging them a monthll licence and support fee. So to answer your 3 questions (In my opinion) - The cost of the app depends on its complexity and time it will take you to write it. - It depends on what agreement you have with the company. I have written a product for a company where they insisted on owning the IP (intellectual Property) and the source code in which case i cannot sell to anyone else. This is mainly because the application is based on company sensitive formulease etc...I have another application where i own the IP and source code and can sell to whoever i want. - Dont give them source code unless its part of the agreement as mentioned above.Remember, as long as you own the source code, you are the only person who can make any future enhancements....so you can secure future income... Just make sure you backup..backup..backup...the source in a few place to keep it safe ! I've lost mine once...very big mistake ! Cheers, Craig ** I'd rather try and fail than fail to try ;) **
Craig G Fraser wrote:
Just make sure you backup..backup..backup...the source in a few place to keep it safe ! I've lost mine once...very big mistake !
Oops... :omg:
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Craig G Fraser wrote:
Just make sure you backup..backup..backup...the source in a few place to keep it safe ! I've lost mine once...very big mistake !
Oops... :omg:
Oops...a huge understatement :) I lost a 300gig HD....Source Code,DVD's,CD's etc... Thought i was going to die :( Cheers, Craig ** I'd rather try and fail than fail to try ;) **
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I have been asked to build an application and a website (they work together). They have to perform a few tasks, basically managing some simple data. The website replicates the data in a read-only fashion. The system is quite complex, uses SQL Server and should be multi-client. Since this kind of application could be useful to other customers (operating in the same market), I wonder whether or not selling them too the application is fair. We (me and the primary customer) have not yet decided the "licensing" statements (I'm not an employee). I thought, anyway, to give them the application and the site under a closed-source license. So the questions are: - How much could I ask them? (someone told me at least 7-800 Euros) - Is it fair to sell the same application to other customers, supposing they allow me to? - Should I give them the source? And in this case, Should I ask more money? :-D This is my first "big" work, at least compared with other small websites I have done before, so any suggestion is really welcome, specially from the ones of you that are professionals. Thanks. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
Dario Solera wrote:
How much could I ask them? (someone told me at least 7-800 Euros)
Well that obviously depends on how it would take you to write the software and how much potential you see in selling it to other customers later. For 800 euros (something like $1000 for you US-ians out there), you could write no more than a small utility, probably - in my line of work, 800 euros would be 1 day worth of work. On the other hand, let's say it would take you 10 days to write the software, and you ask them 5 * 800 euros (let's keep 800 euros as day price), you'll need to find a way to make the other 5 * 800 euros. If you see potential in selling the same application 10 times at 500 euros each, you're better off offering it low to the current customer, retain IP rights and sell it to other customers.
Dario Solera wrote:
- Is it fair to sell the same application to other customers, supposing they allow me to?
Of course it's fair, it depends on what you agree on with the first customer. If they pay you for your hours, so you write the software for them and they get full rights, you won't be able to do it. They'll probably also want the source code, a point that you should agree on before writing 1 line of code, and get it in writing. On the other hand, if they are looking for a 'solution' and you write that solution for them, but retain rights to it and plan on selling it to other people later, it's fair that they pay less than the number of hours you worked on it multiplied by your hourly rate - after all, you don't pay 1 000 000 euros for MS Office either (a completely bogus number, it cost much more to make Office).
Dario Solera wrote:
- Should I give them the source? And in this case, Should I ask more money?
Again, that depends on what you agree on before taking the project, and of course when they want the source they should pay more. You shouldn't think about it in term of 'should I give them the source code', think in terms of 'should I transfer my rights to the code over' - and when you do, how much of those rights (e.g., can they market the product or only use it for themselves?). If you transfer all rights but don't give them source code and think 'they can't do anything anyway because they don't have code', they'll just sue you for it. Code is worthless without ownership rights to it. cheers, roel -- modified a
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I have written a commercial application which started out as a request from a company to write them the application. The app was sold to them initially but over time i have made the application more generic so that it fits the requirements of other companies within the same market/industry. I have since solde to a further 2 companies. My initial sale of the software was a once off payment but becuase the application now requires quite a bit of support and enhancements, i am charging them a monthll licence and support fee. So to answer your 3 questions (In my opinion) - The cost of the app depends on its complexity and time it will take you to write it. - It depends on what agreement you have with the company. I have written a product for a company where they insisted on owning the IP (intellectual Property) and the source code in which case i cannot sell to anyone else. This is mainly because the application is based on company sensitive formulease etc...I have another application where i own the IP and source code and can sell to whoever i want. - Dont give them source code unless its part of the agreement as mentioned above.Remember, as long as you own the source code, you are the only person who can make any future enhancements....so you can secure future income... Just make sure you backup..backup..backup...the source in a few place to keep it safe ! I've lost mine once...very big mistake ! Cheers, Craig ** I'd rather try and fail than fail to try ;) **
Well, thank you very much for your opinion. The application+website need at least 15k lines of code plus a few SQL, and I guess I'd need 10 days or so (working only on it), plus the time for (at least a brief) testing and then deployment. I'd like, obviously, to own the IP and the source code as well. As soon as I finish the design of the architecture and therefore understand how much time I will need, I'm going to discuss all the "legal" stuff with the customer.
Craig G Fraser wrote:
Just make sure you backup..backup..backup...the source in a few place to keep it safe
Don't worry! I'm really paranoid on backups! :-D Thanks again. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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Dario Solera wrote:
How much could I ask them? (someone told me at least 7-800 Euros)
Well that obviously depends on how it would take you to write the software and how much potential you see in selling it to other customers later. For 800 euros (something like $1000 for you US-ians out there), you could write no more than a small utility, probably - in my line of work, 800 euros would be 1 day worth of work. On the other hand, let's say it would take you 10 days to write the software, and you ask them 5 * 800 euros (let's keep 800 euros as day price), you'll need to find a way to make the other 5 * 800 euros. If you see potential in selling the same application 10 times at 500 euros each, you're better off offering it low to the current customer, retain IP rights and sell it to other customers.
Dario Solera wrote:
- Is it fair to sell the same application to other customers, supposing they allow me to?
Of course it's fair, it depends on what you agree on with the first customer. If they pay you for your hours, so you write the software for them and they get full rights, you won't be able to do it. They'll probably also want the source code, a point that you should agree on before writing 1 line of code, and get it in writing. On the other hand, if they are looking for a 'solution' and you write that solution for them, but retain rights to it and plan on selling it to other people later, it's fair that they pay less than the number of hours you worked on it multiplied by your hourly rate - after all, you don't pay 1 000 000 euros for MS Office either (a completely bogus number, it cost much more to make Office).
Dario Solera wrote:
- Should I give them the source? And in this case, Should I ask more money?
Again, that depends on what you agree on before taking the project, and of course when they want the source they should pay more. You shouldn't think about it in term of 'should I give them the source code', think in terms of 'should I transfer my rights to the code over' - and when you do, how much of those rights (e.g., can they market the product or only use it for themselves?). If you transfer all rights but don't give them source code and think 'they can't do anything anyway because they don't have code', they'll just sue you for it. Code is worthless without ownership rights to it. cheers, roel -- modified a
Thank you, I appreciate your suggestions.
roel_ wrote:
Well that obviously depends on how it would take you to write the software and how much potential you see in selling it to other customers later.
roel_ wrote:
et's say it would take you 10 days to write the software
That's exactly the time I think I'll need, except for testing, deploying and a brief training. In the next days I'm going to discuss all the "legal" stuff with them, especially whether or not I will own the IP and source code. Anyway, after we discussed the requirements during our first meeting, they came off with the statement: "and then we'll pay as much as needed" (well, it wasn't exactly like that, but the meaning was the same). This :wtf: has been my reaction... Thanks again. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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Thank you, I appreciate your suggestions.
roel_ wrote:
Well that obviously depends on how it would take you to write the software and how much potential you see in selling it to other customers later.
roel_ wrote:
et's say it would take you 10 days to write the software
That's exactly the time I think I'll need, except for testing, deploying and a brief training. In the next days I'm going to discuss all the "legal" stuff with them, especially whether or not I will own the IP and source code. Anyway, after we discussed the requirements during our first meeting, they came off with the statement: "and then we'll pay as much as needed" (well, it wasn't exactly like that, but the meaning was the same). This :wtf: has been my reaction... Thanks again. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
Yeah well one last suggestion - don't be shy when asking money! I know of a case (years ago) where my company developed something for another company, it was only a couple of hours of work so they (I wasn't with the company at the time) charged only a couple of hundreds of guilders (it was before euros existed, the equivalent of 100 or 200 euros.). After all was said and done, the guy from the other company said 'if you would have charged 50 000 we'd have paid it too - the whole company is based on this piece of software'. So yeah, estimate how bad they need it, in what sector they're in (eg finance sector have tons of money, they don't think twice about spending 50 000 euros) and make sure to get your contract real tight - a couple of hundreds of euros for a lawyer to look through your contract can save you thousands or tens of thousands in the future.
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Yeah well one last suggestion - don't be shy when asking money! I know of a case (years ago) where my company developed something for another company, it was only a couple of hours of work so they (I wasn't with the company at the time) charged only a couple of hundreds of guilders (it was before euros existed, the equivalent of 100 or 200 euros.). After all was said and done, the guy from the other company said 'if you would have charged 50 000 we'd have paid it too - the whole company is based on this piece of software'. So yeah, estimate how bad they need it, in what sector they're in (eg finance sector have tons of money, they don't think twice about spending 50 000 euros) and make sure to get your contract real tight - a couple of hundreds of euros for a lawyer to look through your contract can save you thousands or tens of thousands in the future.
roel_ wrote:
estimate how bad they need it, in what sector they're in
Well, they really need it. It could make them save tons of time and therefore money...
roel_ wrote:
and make sure to get your contract real tight
This is obviously an important point. Anyway I'm sending right now them an email just to introduce the IP/source code question. We'll see... _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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Well, thank you very much for your opinion. The application+website need at least 15k lines of code plus a few SQL, and I guess I'd need 10 days or so (working only on it), plus the time for (at least a brief) testing and then deployment. I'd like, obviously, to own the IP and the source code as well. As soon as I finish the design of the architecture and therefore understand how much time I will need, I'm going to discuss all the "legal" stuff with the customer.
Craig G Fraser wrote:
Just make sure you backup..backup..backup...the source in a few place to keep it safe
Don't worry! I'm really paranoid on backups! :-D Thanks again. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
Dario Solera wrote:
The application+website need at least 15k lines of code plus a few SQL, and I guess I'd need 10 days or so
:omg: Either you're an extremely fast coder who doesn't make mistakes, or you're being awfully optimistic there... Or maybe it's just me who can't managed more than a couple hundred quality lines of code in a day. That's always possible :)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Dario Solera wrote:
The application+website need at least 15k lines of code plus a few SQL, and I guess I'd need 10 days or so
:omg: Either you're an extremely fast coder who doesn't make mistakes, or you're being awfully optimistic there... Or maybe it's just me who can't managed more than a couple hundred quality lines of code in a day. That's always possible :)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
Ryan Binns wrote:
Either you're an extremely fast coder who doesn't make mistakes, or you're being awfully optimistic there...
Well, when I decide that I code, I code for real. In the last 2 days I coded more than 4000 lines... _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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Ryan Binns wrote:
Either you're an extremely fast coder who doesn't make mistakes, or you're being awfully optimistic there...
Well, when I decide that I code, I code for real. In the last 2 days I coded more than 4000 lines... _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
Dario Solera wrote:
In the last 2 days I coded more than 4000 lines...
:omg: Wow! Is that including design, testing and documentation?
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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Dario Solera wrote:
In the last 2 days I coded more than 4000 lines...
:omg: Wow! Is that including design, testing and documentation?
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
No, not design. But a few testing and documentation. _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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Dario Solera wrote:
In the last 2 days I coded more than 4000 lines...
:omg: Wow! Is that including design, testing and documentation?
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
he probably work in C or C++ my boss is working ObjectiveC and write pages a day (1000+ lines) I'm porting his code to windows. I'm much slower. However I achieve the same as results with just a tenth of C# code :laugh:
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roel_ wrote:
estimate how bad they need it, in what sector they're in
Well, they really need it. It could make them save tons of time and therefore money...
roel_ wrote:
and make sure to get your contract real tight
This is obviously an important point. Anyway I'm sending right now them an email just to introduce the IP/source code question. We'll see... _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
don't understimate testing. they won't do business with you again if it's broken!
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he probably work in C or C++ my boss is working ObjectiveC and write pages a day (1000+ lines) I'm porting his code to windows. I'm much slower. However I achieve the same as results with just a tenth of C# code :laugh:
Super Lloyd wrote:
he probably work in C or C++
No, C# (ASP.NET). :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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he probably work in C or C++ my boss is working ObjectiveC and write pages a day (1000+ lines) I'm porting his code to windows. I'm much slower. However I achieve the same as results with just a tenth of C# code :laugh:
Super Lloyd wrote:
he probably work in C or C++
That's what I use... C++ :~ Of course, I'm not actually a software engineer... I'm one of the evil hardware guys ;)
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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I have been asked to build an application and a website (they work together). They have to perform a few tasks, basically managing some simple data. The website replicates the data in a read-only fashion. The system is quite complex, uses SQL Server and should be multi-client. Since this kind of application could be useful to other customers (operating in the same market), I wonder whether or not selling them too the application is fair. We (me and the primary customer) have not yet decided the "licensing" statements (I'm not an employee). I thought, anyway, to give them the application and the site under a closed-source license. So the questions are: - How much could I ask them? (someone told me at least 7-800 Euros) - Is it fair to sell the same application to other customers, supposing they allow me to? - Should I give them the source? And in this case, Should I ask more money? :-D This is my first "big" work, at least compared with other small websites I have done before, so any suggestion is really welcome, specially from the ones of you that are professionals. Thanks. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
In general if you get paid to develop something they own the source and it is unfair to ask otherwise however you can ask for rights to the code as well assuming it does not use proprietary methods. Ask them your (going rate * number of hours) - (going rate * ignorance). Do not ask for below market rate unless (1. you suck, 2. it is a non-profit, or 3. you have a personal relationship with them). As for giving them the source, they own it. "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
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In general if you get paid to develop something they own the source and it is unfair to ask otherwise however you can ask for rights to the code as well assuming it does not use proprietary methods. Ask them your (going rate * number of hours) - (going rate * ignorance). Do not ask for below market rate unless (1. you suck, 2. it is a non-profit, or 3. you have a personal relationship with them). As for giving them the source, they own it. "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh
Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
As for giving them the source, they own it.
We already decided that I own the source. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
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Ennis Ray Lynch, Jr. wrote:
As for giving them the source, they own it.
We already decided that I own the source. :) _____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0b...
Then you cheated them. They took all of the risk and you got all of the rewards. After all you didn't develop the software at your own expense and then market it to them. While it is certainly legal to do so and not a violation of the ACM code of ethics it still doesn't pass the would you want your mother to know about it test. "Until the day of his death, no man can be sure of his courage" -- Jean Anouilh