Ouch
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Josh Smith wrote:
I can feel the flames coming already
Old schoolers in PHP??? I dunno, the forums I visit are mostly guys my age...granted there are a few old timers...but mostly not... I beg to differ...I think PHP has some major advantages over even C# or anything .NET but to avoid flame wars...I'll avoid this like the plague :)
Josh Smith wrote:
Oh no, my friend! Not necessarily! I'm a consultant and have been on the same project for 7 months, with another many more months left on my contract. Being a consultant doesn't guarantee anything, except that you will work your butt off (and make good money).
Fare enough, but project brevity was not quite the only factor in my decission... For example, I refuse to work on existing open source projects as most are poorly written and even more poorly documented...and some completely unsupported... I can save myself a lot of grief by simply not accepting projects like this...whereas at a day job you have no choice... Ideally, I would build SME web sites and applications... CRM, KBASE, CMMS, CMS, ERP, etc... Expert systems interst me...so the project would not get too boring... Besides...hate me as you will...but I would outsource most of the mundane boring coding to India... I much prefer project planning, designing, documentation, etc...I mean I enjoy coding too but only when i'm learning something new (like developing a search algorithm or something) I can't stand programming something I've already done... It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
I dunno, the forums I visit are mostly guys my age...granted there are a few old timers...but mostly not...
By 'old timers' I didn't mean people of advanced age. I meant people coding in technologies of advanced age. Sure, high school kids could (and might) write PHP apps. The user group is irrelevant.
Hockey wrote:
I can save myself a lot of grief by simply not accepting projects like this...whereas at a day job you have no choice... Ideally, I would build SME web sites and applications... CRM, KBASE, CMMS, CMS, ERP, etc... Expert systems interst me...so the project would not get too boring...
It looks like you know what you want to do. I'm sure you could find companies that need people to build those types of systems. Don't worry too much about getting bored. If you spend 8 or 12 months designing/creating some cool system and then get bored, get a new (and higher paying) job! That's the name of the game! :laugh:
Hockey wrote:
Besides...hate me as you will...but I would outsource most of the mundane boring coding to India... I much prefer project planning, designing, documentation, etc...I mean I enjoy coding too but only when i'm learning something new (like developing a search algorithm or something) I can't stand programming something I've already done...
No offense, but don't get your hopes up about being able to decide who will do the coding on a project, or being the master architect. If you get hired with few and hazy credentials, I seriously doubt the company will immediately let you manage a project. You'll be a grunt coder in the trenches, at least at first. To assume otherwise is delusional. Josh
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http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=1555326#xx1555326xx[^] Why I have I chosen to create a new post...I felt it important that everyone that laughed at me had a better understanding of where I was coming from... :-D Perhaps it's my fault for not fully explaing in the first place... I chose Marc's post because...well...it was the biggest kick in the junk...sucks being called down by someone you respect... I'm gonna have to start calling Marc my Dad :P But that's a whole different can of worms ain't it??? :) My history (queue epic theme music): ==================================== I started programming at a very early age (nothing new I know a handfull of guys my age who did the same) and have therefore accumulated a vast amount of experience...covering everything from low level to high level...from desktop to web development...I am interested and very passionate about almost everything computers and being single and living at home with the parents I can afford to spend a great deal of time doing what I do best...learning new stuff...and tinkering with ideas, etc... I am currently employed at a minimum wage job delivering auto parts...as there are few programming jobs in my city...especially those which are worth my time and effort...I'm not complaining...I'm just saying... So if you feel the need to yell at me and say something like: "Move to another city" hold your breathe... I can't do anything if it doesn't make me happy...maintaining garbage scripts, etc...doesn't appeal to me...so despite better pay...I'd be as miserable doing that living on my own as I am living at home with my parents...but at least here I still have flexibility..which makes me happy... I dropped out of school, not to smoke pot in the hockey bleachers...but to read books on programming and study becoming a pilot (my original intent in life was to be a fighter pilot) of course...nothing ever turns out quite as expected... :P I drive my delivery truck *really* fast to compensate for my lack of fast flying...but only on desserted roads so no one is put at risk but me - don't worry MADD :) Around 5-6 years ago...I started thinking maybe I could make a living at programming...seeing how...well it's all I've done everyday of my life since I was about 7 or 8 years old...and despite not having a
I think Marcs response was there to indicate the irony of the situation. The fact that you were looking fro a way to bill those who were trying to get more information from you about you but then you were asking others for free. :) One thing I have learned in business is that you cannot expect to make a dime off of EVERY bit of your talent. Yes, you need to feel comfortable in asking to get paid for your work, you would not be a good business name and should in fact NOT be in charge of your business if you have a problem with asking to get paid, but you have to understand that it takes money to make money. Talking for free is one excellent way to spend money you don't have and will not miss to market yourself to a very large group. The cost of talk is nothing. Be willing to talk to people on the phone about your ideas (sans the gory money making details obviously). Take the time to make your name known on Usenet by answering questions that others are seeking answers to for free. I LOVE doing this because it does a few things. 1) The Internet is forever. You better believe that just about anyone looking to hire you as a consultant that knows anything about business is going to take a quick few minutes to Google your name. If they see you taking the time to help people on your own time solve issues not only have you just marketed yourself as a good corporate citizen and a team player but you have just boosted your personal advertising dollar 2 fold and it literally cost you nothing but your time. 2) It helps you sharpen your communications skills since you have to convey your technical prowess in print rather than over the phone. I also recommend that if you think you have something to say and need to get your name out, do so by writing articles here (something that I have not done yet) or try submitting articles to magazines for publications. Do anything that really in the long term costs you very little but can potentially net you a lot over the years. Consider opening yourself up to talking at user groups, schools, etc... Maybe the term looser was a bit harsh, but it probably got you thinking and opened you up to communication. In that end it did what I think it was supposed to do. Your attitude is good about it but it is what you will do with it that really counts. Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area th
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that's ok, it's Friday :) Only posted this because your initial Holy Crap really made me laugh
HollyHooo wrote:
Only posted this because your initial Holy Crap really made me laugh
Glad I could help. Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You just won the longest post award.
Dang... that was almost as long as my longest poem... _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
that was almost as long as my longest poem
You wrote a poem about Hockey? :-D Jeremy Falcon
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
that was almost as long as my longest poem
You wrote a poem about Hockey? :-D Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You wrote a poem about Hockey?
Nope... the man who married the moon. You could say it is about not giving up and still setting your sights high! _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either...
Made my point! You maybe don't care, however if you want to make more money you need education, education and education. Without that ... well ... My eMail control My Blog
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Hockey wrote:
I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary...
My grandfather got his high school equivalency at age 45. It's more than just knowing where you are, it's proving you can stick by something and see it through to the end. For some reason companies and customers like to see someone finish what they started. :) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) -- modified at 16:27 Friday 30th June, 2006
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
For some reason companies and customers like to see someone finish what they started.
Good point. Jeremy Falcon
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http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=1555326#xx1555326xx[^] Why I have I chosen to create a new post...I felt it important that everyone that laughed at me had a better understanding of where I was coming from... :-D Perhaps it's my fault for not fully explaing in the first place... I chose Marc's post because...well...it was the biggest kick in the junk...sucks being called down by someone you respect... I'm gonna have to start calling Marc my Dad :P But that's a whole different can of worms ain't it??? :) My history (queue epic theme music): ==================================== I started programming at a very early age (nothing new I know a handfull of guys my age who did the same) and have therefore accumulated a vast amount of experience...covering everything from low level to high level...from desktop to web development...I am interested and very passionate about almost everything computers and being single and living at home with the parents I can afford to spend a great deal of time doing what I do best...learning new stuff...and tinkering with ideas, etc... I am currently employed at a minimum wage job delivering auto parts...as there are few programming jobs in my city...especially those which are worth my time and effort...I'm not complaining...I'm just saying... So if you feel the need to yell at me and say something like: "Move to another city" hold your breathe... I can't do anything if it doesn't make me happy...maintaining garbage scripts, etc...doesn't appeal to me...so despite better pay...I'd be as miserable doing that living on my own as I am living at home with my parents...but at least here I still have flexibility..which makes me happy... I dropped out of school, not to smoke pot in the hockey bleachers...but to read books on programming and study becoming a pilot (my original intent in life was to be a fighter pilot) of course...nothing ever turns out quite as expected... :P I drive my delivery truck *really* fast to compensate for my lack of fast flying...but only on desserted roads so no one is put at risk but me - don't worry MADD :) Around 5-6 years ago...I started thinking maybe I could make a living at programming...seeing how...well it's all I've done everyday of my life since I was about 7 or 8 years old...and despite not having a
In my reply to your posting, I made some suggestions of a positive nature. I also suggested that if you really want to become a self employed person there are hoops you need to jump through otherwise you are very likely to waste not just time but an awful amount of money. Having a proper business plan which includes an investigation into your proposals as well as the production of Profit and Loss forcasting and Cashflow forcasting spreadsheets showing realistic proposed budgets not forgetting to perform a personal survival budget. These are a vital must. If you are not sure what these are (1) Business Plan, (2) Profit & Loss forcast, (3) Cashflow forcast, (4) Personal Survival Budget etc then you had better NOT take the self employed avenue until you know exactly the reason for their existence and the exact way in which you are to use these *LEGAL* documents. And these are not the only documentation that you must create. Contact me if you require further information
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Hockey wrote:
I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary...
My grandfather got his high school equivalency at age 45. It's more than just knowing where you are, it's proving you can stick by something and see it through to the end. For some reason companies and customers like to see someone finish what they started. :) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb) -- modified at 16:27 Friday 30th June, 2006
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
For some reason companies and customers like to see someone finish what they started.
Maybe it gives them some form of assurance that if someone starts a project for them, chances of the person finishing the project is good. I'd hate to invest in someone and see them bail out in the middle of a project.
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And I voted a 5 btw, because someone downvoted this and just don't see why. It's long (I mean, really really long ;P), but I didn't find it offensive or bad. Jeremy Falcon
I did vote 1, because what a moron decides that a high school diploma is not important? My eMail control My Blog
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Josh Smith wrote:
I can feel the flames coming already
Old schoolers in PHP??? I dunno, the forums I visit are mostly guys my age...granted there are a few old timers...but mostly not... I beg to differ...I think PHP has some major advantages over even C# or anything .NET but to avoid flame wars...I'll avoid this like the plague :)
Josh Smith wrote:
Oh no, my friend! Not necessarily! I'm a consultant and have been on the same project for 7 months, with another many more months left on my contract. Being a consultant doesn't guarantee anything, except that you will work your butt off (and make good money).
Fare enough, but project brevity was not quite the only factor in my decission... For example, I refuse to work on existing open source projects as most are poorly written and even more poorly documented...and some completely unsupported... I can save myself a lot of grief by simply not accepting projects like this...whereas at a day job you have no choice... Ideally, I would build SME web sites and applications... CRM, KBASE, CMMS, CMS, ERP, etc... Expert systems interst me...so the project would not get too boring... Besides...hate me as you will...but I would outsource most of the mundane boring coding to India... I much prefer project planning, designing, documentation, etc...I mean I enjoy coding too but only when i'm learning something new (like developing a search algorithm or something) I can't stand programming something I've already done... It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
I beg to differ...I think PHP has some major advantages over even C# or anything .NET but to avoid flame wars...
Forgot to mention, according to the original post in this thread, you have never used "C# or anything .NET" yet. With that being the case, I don't think you're in a position to state this as fact. Knowledge comes from experience, not information. Cheers, Josh -- modified at 16:03 Friday 30th June, 2006
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Okay, one observation, and then I'll leave you to go about your life however you please: You need to stop blaming other people for your problems (see here[^] and here[^]). That is all. Best of luck to you. Jon Sagara When I grow up, I'm changing my name to Joe Kickass! My Site | My Blog | My Articles
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Hockey wrote:
Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either...
Made my point! You maybe don't care, however if you want to make more money you need education, education and education. Without that ... well ... My eMail control My Blog
I do not have a college degree, and don't know any developers who make more than me ... when it comes to software, a degree will normally get you an interview ... that's it ... in fact where I am working now requires a degree ... go figure.
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
For some reason companies and customers like to see someone finish what they started.
Maybe it gives them some form of assurance that if someone starts a project for them, chances of the person finishing the project is good. I'd hate to invest in someone and see them bail out in the middle of a project.
Paul Conrad wrote:
I'd hate to invest in someone and see them bail out in the middle of a project.
I'm sure that's how IBM feels about MS. Oh I had to. :-D Jeremy Falcon
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Hockey wrote:
Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either...
Made my point! You maybe don't care, however if you want to make more money you need education, education and education. Without that ... well ... My eMail control My Blog
Albert Pascual wrote:
if you want to make more money you need education, education and education
Ahem!
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Paul Conrad wrote:
I'd hate to invest in someone and see them bail out in the middle of a project.
I'm sure that's how IBM feels about MS. Oh I had to. :-D Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Oh I had to.
Invest or bail on someone? I'll admit I had to bail on a project because the project went into the toilet with no hope of coming back...
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I think Marcs response was there to indicate the irony of the situation. The fact that you were looking fro a way to bill those who were trying to get more information from you about you but then you were asking others for free. :) One thing I have learned in business is that you cannot expect to make a dime off of EVERY bit of your talent. Yes, you need to feel comfortable in asking to get paid for your work, you would not be a good business name and should in fact NOT be in charge of your business if you have a problem with asking to get paid, but you have to understand that it takes money to make money. Talking for free is one excellent way to spend money you don't have and will not miss to market yourself to a very large group. The cost of talk is nothing. Be willing to talk to people on the phone about your ideas (sans the gory money making details obviously). Take the time to make your name known on Usenet by answering questions that others are seeking answers to for free. I LOVE doing this because it does a few things. 1) The Internet is forever. You better believe that just about anyone looking to hire you as a consultant that knows anything about business is going to take a quick few minutes to Google your name. If they see you taking the time to help people on your own time solve issues not only have you just marketed yourself as a good corporate citizen and a team player but you have just boosted your personal advertising dollar 2 fold and it literally cost you nothing but your time. 2) It helps you sharpen your communications skills since you have to convey your technical prowess in print rather than over the phone. I also recommend that if you think you have something to say and need to get your name out, do so by writing articles here (something that I have not done yet) or try submitting articles to magazines for publications. Do anything that really in the long term costs you very little but can potentially net you a lot over the years. Consider opening yourself up to talking at user groups, schools, etc... Maybe the term looser was a bit harsh, but it probably got you thinking and opened you up to communication. In that end it did what I think it was supposed to do. Your attitude is good about it but it is what you will do with it that really counts. Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area th
Ray Cassick wrote:
Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area that you want to be in at least you are in the business. Once you get your foot in the door that is often the first opportunity you have to show what you can do outside those mundane tasks that make up your day to day grind. Keep your ears open for opportunities where you can shine a bit. I am not saying that you need to work at a crappy boring job for years and years though so be alert also to the good times to say enough is enough and move on but at least you have added a legit job in your field to your CV. From then on it should get simpler.
Agreed. Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously. With nothing but bottom rate contracting in your CV, you're unlikely to get anything better, a year or two of full time work should really be a big help in this regard even if you find yourself hating every minute of it.
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I tried several times... I don't learn well in group settings...I get easily distracted... Second...I'm no longer interested...I mean...I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late as I would be 30ish before I got into post secondary... Third, I looked into writting first/second year challenge exam for computer science...thing is...I would need money to take the exam and money to buy some of the course material (books)... I cannot afford to do this and my Dad won't help... Besides he doesn't care about my education anymore either... It's not really a problem either...as I am sure I could convince someone I'm capable...I have applications, articles, source code and code snippets to prove my skillset in many different languages and technologies... It's more of a lack of connections or business know how thats stopping me from getting anywhere... Cheers :) It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey wrote:
I know where I stand and i'm 27 years old...high school is a little late
Sorry but that is really a cheap excuse. In my college paper they listed an obituary for a man from the class of 2003 (golly why did he die so young.) Then it listed his WW2 service metals. You are NOT too old (youngster.)
Hockey wrote:
It's more of a lack of connections or business know
No it is a lack of proving your ability to work through tasks. I know of no one that would consider hiring a consultant with out a college degree unless there was some SOLID proof behind him (like 20 years military experience.) If they found out you did not even have a high school degree..... "Yes I know the voices are not real. But they have some pretty good ideas."
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http://www.codeproject.com/lounge.asp?msg=1555326#xx1555326xx[^] Why I have I chosen to create a new post...I felt it important that everyone that laughed at me had a better understanding of where I was coming from... :-D Perhaps it's my fault for not fully explaing in the first place... I chose Marc's post because...well...it was the biggest kick in the junk...sucks being called down by someone you respect... I'm gonna have to start calling Marc my Dad :P But that's a whole different can of worms ain't it??? :) My history (queue epic theme music): ==================================== I started programming at a very early age (nothing new I know a handfull of guys my age who did the same) and have therefore accumulated a vast amount of experience...covering everything from low level to high level...from desktop to web development...I am interested and very passionate about almost everything computers and being single and living at home with the parents I can afford to spend a great deal of time doing what I do best...learning new stuff...and tinkering with ideas, etc... I am currently employed at a minimum wage job delivering auto parts...as there are few programming jobs in my city...especially those which are worth my time and effort...I'm not complaining...I'm just saying... So if you feel the need to yell at me and say something like: "Move to another city" hold your breathe... I can't do anything if it doesn't make me happy...maintaining garbage scripts, etc...doesn't appeal to me...so despite better pay...I'd be as miserable doing that living on my own as I am living at home with my parents...but at least here I still have flexibility..which makes me happy... I dropped out of school, not to smoke pot in the hockey bleachers...but to read books on programming and study becoming a pilot (my original intent in life was to be a fighter pilot) of course...nothing ever turns out quite as expected... :P I drive my delivery truck *really* fast to compensate for my lack of fast flying...but only on desserted roads so no one is put at risk but me - don't worry MADD :) Around 5-6 years ago...I started thinking maybe I could make a living at programming...seeing how...well it's all I've done everyday of my life since I was about 7 or 8 years old...and despite not having a
I wrote a longer post, but network connection was lost and I didn't copy paste.... but here goes the 2nd condensed version.... First, learn compression.... my life: born, school, school, school, school, drop out, school, work, married, divorced, married, new work, hospitalized, divorced, codeproject. Second, finish something.... no snippets, real long projects. Sure you won't get paid for it, it isn't about the money, it is about the real experience. Snippets are not experience. Choose your battles, get something for everyone faught. Snippets rarely covers integration issues, large scale debugging issues (search for that memory leak in 250,000 lines of code). Snippets rarely covers customer issues, they want the world, you have to deliver at least the moon, convincing yourself to work that hard and negotiating the change in design, priceless. I did not finish college, went to votech for business accounting (the degree comp sci majors laugh at), and I do 3D visualization now, and give presentations on advanced techniques, augmented video, telepresence, Unmanned navigation, etc. You can have anything you want, but you have to want it bad enough to do more than snippets. I know what the bottom feels like, trust me. Two marriages, two divorces, and a hospitalization that ate away one internal organ, and damaged a few others. Although I am large (and getting smaller -- compression again ;) ), I have known what it is like to go jogging to try to forget the hunger pains from an empty fridge when I went to votech. You deal, you focus, you finish. _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Ray Cassick wrote:
Now, with that said, keep in mind that you still have to live. You may not be able pay the bills if you hold out for doing something that you love. Look at it this way, even if you hate the job, if it is in the technical area that you want to be in at least you are in the business. Once you get your foot in the door that is often the first opportunity you have to show what you can do outside those mundane tasks that make up your day to day grind. Keep your ears open for opportunities where you can shine a bit. I am not saying that you need to work at a crappy boring job for years and years though so be alert also to the good times to say enough is enough and move on but at least you have added a legit job in your field to your CV. From then on it should get simpler.
Agreed. Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously. With nothing but bottom rate contracting in your CV, you're unlikely to get anything better, a year or two of full time work should really be a big help in this regard even if you find yourself hating every minute of it.
dan neely wrote:
Without formal education, you really need to get at least one major item on your CV to be taken seriously.
The major item on the CV would have to be very convincing for me. Having some articles and code snippets are nice and all, but if I were a hiring manager, I'd want to see the degree regardless of other accomplishments.