CP to rally behind MS?
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I make 80% of my income programming for Windows. Thats what the market wants, thats what I do. BTW Sun doesn't make a user friendly OS. Neither does Oracle. Maybe they should put some more money in development instead of lawsuites. Remember most computer users aren't programmers(thats why MS has 90% of the market). Oracle and Sun don't target the consumer market and Apple made stuff that was too expensive. Thats why MS is #1. They built what most consumers wanted.
Martin Marvinski wrote: BTW Sun doesn't make a user friendly OS. I have to ask... Have you ever used Solaris? It's straight GUI, and compared to other Unixes it *is* friendlier. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Java much and I think Sun is full of crap for the suit, but a lawsuit doesn't make an OS any worse IMHO. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
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That is because all the other OS initiatives failed. Even before MS became 'THE' OS provider, OSes were doing all they could manage to do to fail. Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
IBM got MS going when they signed a contract agreeing to put MS-DOS on PCs. IBM used to be the giant in the computer world and that's where MS won. Anyone remember the OS/2 project? IBM also helped MS with Windows (3.x, pre '95) until MS screwed 'em over. Bill G even admitted they were in a "rush" to get '95 to market. The truth is everyone is looking to do whatever it takes to make sure their business stays on top. Maybe MS isn't the bad guy this time, but if history repeats itself it'll happen again. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Thats why MS is #1. They built what most consumers wanted. they did not. they marketed better than everyone else. and now that they have that near-monopoly kind of market share, on something that is essentially static (normal people don't change OS's on a whim the same way they might change their brand of toothpaste), they have very little competition. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
Chris Losinger wrote: they did not. they marketed better than everyone else If the average person couldn't use Windows becuase it was too complicated, then it wouldn't sell no matter how much it was marketed(word of mouth). If the consumer can't figure out how to do basic things they can't use it!!! They shouldn't be expected to have a CS degree to check their email or type a document. BTW Apple's only problem was that they priced their products too high. Linux/Unix is only good for experienced Pros with CS degrees. Windows allows people who need computers but aren't programmers to do their work with a minimal learning curve.
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IBM got MS going when they signed a contract agreeing to put MS-DOS on PCs. IBM used to be the giant in the computer world and that's where MS won. Anyone remember the OS/2 project? IBM also helped MS with Windows (3.x, pre '95) until MS screwed 'em over. Bill G even admitted they were in a "rush" to get '95 to market. The truth is everyone is looking to do whatever it takes to make sure their business stays on top. Maybe MS isn't the bad guy this time, but if history repeats itself it'll happen again. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
OS/2 failed because of IBMs own mismanagement. But I have to agree that the IBM/MS-DOS contract probably did more for MS than anything else. I just don't agree that people use MS because they are too stupid to know better. If given a choice for a home computer between MS/Linux/FreeBSD, MS would win out. It is much easier to install than L/F. There is also the application support for MS. Not to mention the real deciding factor, GAMES. :) Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
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Martin Marvinski wrote: BTW Sun doesn't make a user friendly OS. I have to ask... Have you ever used Solaris? It's straight GUI, and compared to other Unixes it *is* friendlier. Don't get me wrong, I don't like Java much and I think Sun is full of crap for the suit, but a lawsuit doesn't make an OS any worse IMHO. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
Solaris is Unix. Unix has a steep learning curve. You can't expect your grandma or the English teacher to even comprehend it. Remember everyone of you are computer experts, while the majority of people only know how to turn it on.
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IBM got MS going when they signed a contract agreeing to put MS-DOS on PCs. IBM used to be the giant in the computer world and that's where MS won. Anyone remember the OS/2 project? IBM also helped MS with Windows (3.x, pre '95) until MS screwed 'em over. Bill G even admitted they were in a "rush" to get '95 to market. The truth is everyone is looking to do whatever it takes to make sure their business stays on top. Maybe MS isn't the bad guy this time, but if history repeats itself it'll happen again. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
Jeremy Falcon wrote: Anyone remember the OS/2 project? I'm still trying to forget it. Man that thing SUCKED!
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Martin Marvinski wrote: Remember most computer users aren't programmers(thats why MS has 90% of the market). Thats why MS is #1. They built what most consumers wanted. Now I'm not one to be a stickler for details (ok, I am), but that's just it, most consumers didn't know what they wanted because they didn't know squat about computers when they first got theirs. It came with Windows and they blindly correlated Windows with being the computer itself. MS got where they are today with good timing, sneaky tatics, and regular visits to Vegas to legally see a prostitute named Buffy. :) It's about marketing. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
Jeremy Falcon wrote: but that's just it, most consumers didn't know what they wanted because they didn't know squat about computers when they first got theirs. If Linux was on that computer they would have returned it!!! They would have turned it on and stared at a command prompt and or a GUI. They may even type some documents and then hit the power button(of course when they turned it back on they lost all their data becuase they didn't do "shutdown -h now"! Windows succeeded because MS does usability tests. No one else did this back then!! When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! Thats why it succeeded.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Anyone remember the OS/2 project? I'm still trying to forget it. Man that thing SUCKED!
Martin Marvinski wrote: I'm still trying to forget it. Man that thing SUCKED! I have to admit, I couldn't get past the GUI. :-O Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
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OS/2 failed because of IBMs own mismanagement. But I have to agree that the IBM/MS-DOS contract probably did more for MS than anything else. I just don't agree that people use MS because they are too stupid to know better. If given a choice for a home computer between MS/Linux/FreeBSD, MS would win out. It is much easier to install than L/F. There is also the application support for MS. Not to mention the real deciding factor, GAMES. :) Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
Tim Smith wrote: Not to mention the real deciding factor, GAMES. Hey wait, I got a cell phone that plays games! Can we throw that in the loop? :) Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
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Solaris is Unix. Unix has a steep learning curve. You can't expect your grandma or the English teacher to even comprehend it. Remember everyone of you are computer experts, while the majority of people only know how to turn it on.
Martin Marvinski wrote: You can't expect your grandma or the English teacher to even comprehend it. You have to admit, it would be really cool if grandma did know it though. :) Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
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You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. Remember they are attacking us, as well as Microsoft with their sneaky tactics. MS has the most developers. What happens to the economy when we loose our jobs thanks to the states? We need to be more vocal in our support of Microsoft.
We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight To HELP?! Are you mad?! A convicted monopoly that is now working in areas to manipulate American law to restrict the freedoms of people (all over the world) even more. And you want to HELP them do that?! Are you completely firetrucking insane?! /Mike
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We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight To HELP?! Are you mad?! A convicted monopoly that is now working in areas to manipulate American law to restrict the freedoms of people (all over the world) even more. And you want to HELP them do that?! Are you completely firetrucking insane?! /Mike
Mike Nordell wrote: To HELP?! Are you mad?! A convicted monopoly... If we do start something on CP, I want the horseman! Someone else can have the shoe, dog, iron, and thimble. :-D Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
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I make 80% of my income programming for Windows. Thats what the market wants, thats what I do. BTW Sun doesn't make a user friendly OS. Neither does Oracle. Maybe they should put some more money in development instead of lawsuites. Remember most computer users aren't programmers(thats why MS has 90% of the market). Oracle and Sun don't target the consumer market and Apple made stuff that was too expensive. Thats why MS is #1. They built what most consumers wanted.
The reason MS has 90% of the market is far more complicated than "most people wanted it". First, MS pursued deals to exclude other operating systems, including making OEMs pay MS whether or not they install any MS product on their computers. Second, the market will naturally move to market dominance by one operating system - because developers want to write applications for an OS that has lots of users and users want an OS with lots of applications. It's a self-perpetuating loop which has made it next to impossible for any alternative OS to get a foothold in the market. Third, MS has treated OEMs as it's own personal serfdoms. When one misbehaves, it just raises the price of Windows. The OEMs can't do a damn thing about it because no major OEM can survive without Windows (see point #2). (Imagine if your electic company threatened to shut off the power or raise the electricity prices to anyone who didn't buy their brand of television.) What can I say, I use Windows and Visual Studio because I like it. But I also recognize the fact that Microsoft's practices deprive it's competitors of the money they need to compete in the market. Microsoft has done some pretty miserable things to competitors in the past, so I don't mind seeing them get knocked down a few pegs for their business practices.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: but that's just it, most consumers didn't know what they wanted because they didn't know squat about computers when they first got theirs. If Linux was on that computer they would have returned it!!! They would have turned it on and stared at a command prompt and or a GUI. They may even type some documents and then hit the power button(of course when they turned it back on they lost all their data becuase they didn't do "shutdown -h now"! Windows succeeded because MS does usability tests. No one else did this back then!! When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! Thats why it succeeded.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: but that's just it, most consumers didn't know what they wanted because they didn't know squat about computers when they first got theirs. If Linux was on that computer they would have returned it!!! They would have turned it on and stared at a command prompt and or a GUI. They may even type some documents and then hit the power button(of course when they turned it back on they lost all their data becuase they didn't do "shutdown -h now"! Windows succeeded because MS does usability tests. No one else did this back then!! When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! Thats why it succeeded.
Martin Marvinski wrote: When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! Thats why it succeeded. This is utter crap. Perhaps you and I "instinctively" know what to do, but I've spent many hours pulling my hair out trying to explain/demonstrate a doubleclick. Personally, I think PCs should be for CS grads and nerds like us. (And since I got sick and f*cking tired of MS bullshit, I've moved to a geek platform. I code for Windows to pay the bills - I code for Linux because I'm cool.) And I think it's up to MS and others to come up with a truly "instinctive" machine for the general population. Windows most definitely is NOT for everyone. J
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You know what we should do? We should start a campaign here at codeproject to help Microsoft in its antitrust fight by writing letters to our elected officals telling them to back off. Maybe Chris could get in touch with MS, and they could tell us who to contact and provide us with strategies and insight. I believe in fair competion and I think what Oracle and Sun are doing is just wrong. Also, Chris could set up a forum here where we could discuss ways to prevent Oracle and Sun from harming our livelyhoods. Remember they are attacking us, as well as Microsoft with their sneaky tactics. MS has the most developers. What happens to the economy when we loose our jobs thanks to the states? We need to be more vocal in our support of Microsoft.
You might want to consider the fact that Microsoft's CLIENTS are complaining about Microsoft's policies too. (Did you know that Microsoft charges OEMs different prices for Windows - as a punitive measure to keep them all marching in-line with Microsoft's goals?) I think one of the quotes I heard in the DOJ trial was that one of the OEMs said to the Microsoft representative, "If you weren't our sole supplier of Windows, we'd have a different one." The response? "Where are you going to go? We're the only game in town." I'm tired of Microsoft treating everyone like it owns them. If you want to start a petition to support the DOJ case AGAINST Microsoft, I'd support that!
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IBM got MS going when they signed a contract agreeing to put MS-DOS on PCs. IBM used to be the giant in the computer world and that's where MS won. Anyone remember the OS/2 project? IBM also helped MS with Windows (3.x, pre '95) until MS screwed 'em over. Bill G even admitted they were in a "rush" to get '95 to market. The truth is everyone is looking to do whatever it takes to make sure their business stays on top. Maybe MS isn't the bad guy this time, but if history repeats itself it'll happen again. Jeremy L. Falcon "The One Who Said, 'The One Who Said...'" Homepage : Feature Article : Sonork = 100.16311
I thought it was Microsoft helping IBM develop OS/2 [http://www.os2bbs.com/os2news/OS2Warp.html\]. Microsoft decided that OS/2 wasn't going to take off and devoted more time to Windows. Kinda like what they did with helping Sega develop the Dreamcast, only to come out with the Xbox later.
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OS/2 failed because of IBMs own mismanagement. But I have to agree that the IBM/MS-DOS contract probably did more for MS than anything else. I just don't agree that people use MS because they are too stupid to know better. If given a choice for a home computer between MS/Linux/FreeBSD, MS would win out. It is much easier to install than L/F. There is also the application support for MS. Not to mention the real deciding factor, GAMES. :) Tim Smith I know what you're thinking punk, you're thinking did he spell check this document? Well, to tell you the truth I kinda forgot myself in all this excitement. But being this here's CodeProject, the most powerful forums in the world and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question, Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
Tim Smith wrote: MS/Linux/FreeBSD true. but put Mac into that mix and the answer's not so easy. i've wanted a mac for a long time, but i have too much invested in MS apps to make the switch. -c
A man usually falls in love with a woman who asks the kinds of questions he is able to answer. Ronald Colman Smaller Animals Software, Inc.
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You might want to consider the fact that Microsoft's CLIENTS are complaining about Microsoft's policies too. (Did you know that Microsoft charges OEMs different prices for Windows - as a punitive measure to keep them all marching in-line with Microsoft's goals?) I think one of the quotes I heard in the DOJ trial was that one of the OEMs said to the Microsoft representative, "If you weren't our sole supplier of Windows, we'd have a different one." The response? "Where are you going to go? We're the only game in town." I'm tired of Microsoft treating everyone like it owns them. If you want to start a petition to support the DOJ case AGAINST Microsoft, I'd support that!
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: but that's just it, most consumers didn't know what they wanted because they didn't know squat about computers when they first got theirs. If Linux was on that computer they would have returned it!!! They would have turned it on and stared at a command prompt and or a GUI. They may even type some documents and then hit the power button(of course when they turned it back on they lost all their data becuase they didn't do "shutdown -h now"! Windows succeeded because MS does usability tests. No one else did this back then!! When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! Thats why it succeeded.
Martin Marvinski wrote: Windows succeeded because MS does usability tests. No one else did this back then!! Whatever. Remember CUA ? IBM supposedly spent millions on "the perfect" user interface guidelines. In the end, all they proved was that their users felt most comfortable with (suprise suprise!) mainframe-style glass-teletype interfaces. The problem with useability testing is, you can only compair useability interfaces you actually have: useability testing on a Windows-style application will allow you to make the best-darn Windows-style application out there maybe, but it won't help you one bit when you need to design a Web-style application, nor will it suggest that maybe a Windows-style application is not ideal for your users. Martin Marvinski wrote: !! When you get a computer with MS Windows, you instinctively know what to do!!! True enough - because i've been using Windows for seven years. Sit a new user down infront of a Windows box & watch them struggle. I've yet to see that training someone completely unfamiliar with Windows to use Word is any easier than training them to use WordPerfect for DOS - and i'm talking about basic stuff like entering the text and getting page breaks in the right spot. The only advantage Windows has is that most programs tend to look and work similarly - which is more to the credit of the application developers than Microsoft. Back when Lotus 123 was king and nearly all spreadsheets used / menus, you could sit down in front of an unknown spreadsheet application and be using it in a very short time. Useability testing? No, a Lotus developer had a stubby right finger & couldn't reach the ALT key ;P . But because it was the leader, everyone aped it, and the users benefited as they only had to learn one retarded interface. Martin Marvinski wrote: Thats why it succeeded. Windows succeeded through good marketing and inept competitors. If it had totally been a pile of crap (i.e. Windows 1&2), it would have failed, but it's success does not mean that it is somehow the apex of quality. A large part of Microsoft's success has been due to being in the right place at the right time._**
Developers that like shiny objects also dig case mods and scratch-and-sniff stickers.
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