Faster than light universe?
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I'm a simple kinda guy, so feel free to poke fun at my complete lack of understanding in the domain of astronomy and astrophysics. However, this article, Universe Might be Bigger and Older than Expected[^], concludes that the universe is 15.8 billion years old and 180 billion light years wide. If the big bang is still the current predominant thinking, then assuming a somewhat spherical universe, 180 billion light years wide would indicate a radius of 90 billion light years. So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are? :-D Yes, I realize that there are probably perfectly good explanations for this that simply point out my ignorance. However, from a layman's point of view I do it a somewhat entertaining concept. :)
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are?
Ok, since I'm bored currently, this is my take on it. Seeing that a lightyear is based on our time-based concept of a year and the planetary movement of Earth, it's completely relative to our concept of time. Time is based on space and movement in using factors that's only really important to us and nothing more. When those factors change on a larger scale a lightyear's parameters will also change with it. That's how I see it at least. It's also worth pointing out, not many people know too much about the outer extrimities of the Universe (if any) yet. We are trying to apply modern physics to it, but haven't completely succeeded. So, there still exists the chance we could be wrong about it.
Jeremy Falcon
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I can. Nothing. No space, no time; nothing.
Jim A. Johnson wrote:
Nothing. No space, no time; nothing.
But even nothing is something. ;P Besides, I have a hard time believing (assuming the Universe isn't inifinite) that we could only possibly the only "thing" out there in the great big void, seems kinda self-centered. On the other hand, if it's nothing, it may only be nothing because we cannot yet or ever preceive it. After all, 3,000 years ago there was no such thing as bacteria.
Jeremy Falcon
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This forms the basis of the famous physics book, "The Inflationery Universe" by Alan Guth. Basically, right after the Big Bang, the universe inflated VERY quickly (faster than the current speed of light). Something along those lines anyway (my astrophysics is a little rusty).
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote:
Basically, right after the Big Bang, the universe inflated VERY quickly (faster than the current speed of light).
"Eh, you call this light? 'T'aint nothin' compared to what we had when i's a kid. Lazy, good-fer-nothin' mumble mumble..."
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
180 billion light years wide.
The question is, what is there, beyond those 180 billion light years? :~ No one can answer that question.
_____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0 RC
There is no beyond. or Cheese curds and beer.
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
180 billion light years wide.
The question is, what is there, beyond those 180 billion light years? :~ No one can answer that question.
_____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0 RC
Dario Solera wrote:
The question is, what is there, beyond those 180 billion light years?
The same thing that there was 1 second before the big bang. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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Since space itself is expanding, and the speed limit applies to things travelling in space, I don't think the rules apply. I don't truly understand this stuff; at least, not on a fundamental intuitive level. I keep thinking things like "Ok, you folks just made that bit up" but then someone comes along and confirms it. Who was it that said (paraphrased): "The universe is not only weirder than we imagine, it's weirder than we can imagine."
David Kentley wrote:
I don't think the rules apply
Probably more like guidelines. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are?
Ok, since I'm bored currently, this is my take on it. Seeing that a lightyear is based on our time-based concept of a year and the planetary movement of Earth, it's completely relative to our concept of time. Time is based on space and movement in using factors that's only really important to us and nothing more. When those factors change on a larger scale a lightyear's parameters will also change with it. That's how I see it at least. It's also worth pointing out, not many people know too much about the outer extrimities of the Universe (if any) yet. We are trying to apply modern physics to it, but haven't completely succeeded. So, there still exists the chance we could be wrong about it.
Jeremy Falcon
You may well be right, but as a techie I'd still bust them for using two different definitions of a measurement unit (year) within the same assertion. Bad physicist. Bad, bad physicist! :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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Jim A. Johnson wrote:
Nothing. No space, no time; nothing.
But even nothing is something. ;P Besides, I have a hard time believing (assuming the Universe isn't inifinite) that we could only possibly the only "thing" out there in the great big void, seems kinda self-centered. On the other hand, if it's nothing, it may only be nothing because we cannot yet or ever preceive it. After all, 3,000 years ago there was no such thing as bacteria.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
After all, 3,000 years ago there was no such thing as bacteria.
No wonder Methuselah lived so long. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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Jim A. Johnson wrote:
Nothing. No space, no time; nothing.
But even nothing is something. ;P Besides, I have a hard time believing (assuming the Universe isn't inifinite) that we could only possibly the only "thing" out there in the great big void, seems kinda self-centered. On the other hand, if it's nothing, it may only be nothing because we cannot yet or ever preceive it. After all, 3,000 years ago there was no such thing as bacteria.
Jeremy Falcon
You have to stop thinking that the universe is like a big room that, somehow, is inside something else. It's not. It *is* the "something else". You can give youself a very bad headache thinking about this.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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I'm a simple kinda guy, so feel free to poke fun at my complete lack of understanding in the domain of astronomy and astrophysics. However, this article, Universe Might be Bigger and Older than Expected[^], concludes that the universe is 15.8 billion years old and 180 billion light years wide. If the big bang is still the current predominant thinking, then assuming a somewhat spherical universe, 180 billion light years wide would indicate a radius of 90 billion light years. So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are? :-D Yes, I realize that there are probably perfectly good explanations for this that simply point out my ignorance. However, from a layman's point of view I do it a somewhat entertaining concept. :)
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are?
1st... we are still learning, no one knows everything yet, what we have is the best available measurement with the current technology. This has changed several times in my life-time. 2nd... it is like the old trick question... if you are in the backseat of an aircraft traveling faster than sound and you speak to the pilot in the front seat, can he hear you? The answer is yes. sound travels through a medium at the speed of sound, it doesn't matter that the air inside the cockpit is past the speed of sound, the sound inside the cockpit travels at the speed of sound through the medium. It "seems" as if the sound is now travelling twice the speed of sound because the medium is wrapped in a bubble is moving while the sound inside is travelling. But speed of sound is still just the speed of sound, adjusted to various qualities of the medium, pressure and temperature, it is still just the speed of sound. Similarly, light travels through its medium, the universe of 3D space, but the fabric of the universe is expanding at the same time that light is moving through its medium. Gravity affects the speed of light the same as temperature or pressure affects the speed of sound, because gravity affects the shape of the medium that light travels in. The speed of the universe expansion makes it seem like light is travelling faster because the medium is in motion while the light is moving.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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You have to stop thinking that the universe is like a big room that, somehow, is inside something else. It's not. It *is* the "something else". You can give youself a very bad headache thinking about this.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
You can give youself a very bad headache thinking about this.
And an even bigger one asking what there would be if our physical universe didn't exist. The older I get, the more I understand why the stereotypical wise man is someone who's gone mad and lives as a hermit in a cave.
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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You may well be right, but as a techie I'd still bust them for using two different definitions of a measurement unit (year) within the same assertion. Bad physicist. Bad, bad physicist! :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
but as a techie I'd still bust them for using two different definitions of a measurement unit (year)
How so, there's only one measurement and we're trying to explain an unkown with it? Unless I missed something obvious.
Jeremy Falcon
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You may well be right, but as a techie I'd still bust them for using two different definitions of a measurement unit (year) within the same assertion. Bad physicist. Bad, bad physicist! :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Bad physicist. Bad, bad physicist!
50 lashes with a compactified superstring.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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You have to stop thinking that the universe is like a big room that, somehow, is inside something else. It's not. It *is* the "something else". You can give youself a very bad headache thinking about this.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
You have to stop thinking that the universe is like a big room that, somehow, is inside something else. It's not. It *is* the "something else".
If thats the case, then how it is possible to even be? It's just as impossible to assume it's inifinite IMO.
Chris Maunder wrote:
You can give youself a very bad headache thinking about this.
Yeah, all of a sudden OGL is starting to seem like Sesame Street. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
After all, 3,000 years ago there was no such thing as bacteria.
No wonder Methuselah lived so long. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
No wonder Methuselah lived so long.
He must've ate his Wheaties. :-D
Jeremy Falcon
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are?
Ok, since I'm bored currently, this is my take on it. Seeing that a lightyear is based on our time-based concept of a year and the planetary movement of Earth, it's completely relative to our concept of time. Time is based on space and movement in using factors that's only really important to us and nothing more. When those factors change on a larger scale a lightyear's parameters will also change with it. That's how I see it at least. It's also worth pointing out, not many people know too much about the outer extrimities of the Universe (if any) yet. We are trying to apply modern physics to it, but haven't completely succeeded. So, there still exists the chance we could be wrong about it.
Jeremy Falcon
Nope, but good try :) The speed of light isn't based on a revolution of a small planet orbiting a small non-descript star in the unfashionable western reaches of the Galaxy. Measurements of time and distance all follow the same rules when measuring anything from the size of the universe to the size of a molecule. Get down below that and you have to talk to Uncle Quantum Mechanics, who's surly, disagreeable and slipperier than a greased weasel.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
It's also worth pointing out, not many people know too much about the outer extrimities of the Universe (if any) yet. We are trying to apply modern physics to it, but haven't completely succeeded. So, there still exists the chance we could be wrong about it.
Absolutely - and this is the beauty of Science. Trying to find how big the universe is is like being put in a pitch black room and being asked what colour the walls are. It's one deductive step after another and each step we take may be right or wrong, but with each success or failure we get another clue and get closer to the answer.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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I'm a simple kinda guy, so feel free to poke fun at my complete lack of understanding in the domain of astronomy and astrophysics. However, this article, Universe Might be Bigger and Older than Expected[^], concludes that the universe is 15.8 billion years old and 180 billion light years wide. If the big bang is still the current predominant thinking, then assuming a somewhat spherical universe, 180 billion light years wide would indicate a radius of 90 billion light years. So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are? :-D Yes, I realize that there are probably perfectly good explanations for this that simply point out my ignorance. However, from a layman's point of view I do it a somewhat entertaining concept. :)
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
God works in mysterious ways. ;P Marc
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer -
I'm a simple kinda guy, so feel free to poke fun at my complete lack of understanding in the domain of astronomy and astrophysics. However, this article, Universe Might be Bigger and Older than Expected[^], concludes that the universe is 15.8 billion years old and 180 billion light years wide. If the big bang is still the current predominant thinking, then assuming a somewhat spherical universe, 180 billion light years wide would indicate a radius of 90 billion light years. So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are? :-D Yes, I realize that there are probably perfectly good explanations for this that simply point out my ignorance. However, from a layman's point of view I do it a somewhat entertaining concept. :)
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
One of my favorite notions is that science is more philosophy than fact. I mean come on... do we really think that with our limited brain pans that we can accurately calculate the beginning of this space and time we find ourselves in? Fun excercise and may uncover quite a bit of relevant information and useful data, but really, again, we're guessing. I'm fascinated by it though. Taking a look at the assumed view of the grand universe, our own milky way is like a gnat in comparison. When you get to the level of clusters of clusters of galaxies... all of my problems seem pretty insignificant indeed. I think that as science evolves this data will keep changing. As our understanding and technique improves so will the data, but I wonder if we can come up with the correct numbers and if it even matters. But the old number was 14 billion years. Side note: There's a book I'm reading called Programming the Universe[^]. Some very provacative ideas here. Maybe when the quantum computer is optimized it will tell us that we can't know the age or size of the universe as that data itself changes along with our ability to digest the details.
This statement is false.
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
So, if nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, and the universe has expanded so wide that it would take light 90 billion years to reach the outer extremities, how is this distance possible in only 15.9 billion years? Are objects in the universe travelling faster than the speed of light to compensate, or did they just look at the source code to find out where the cheats are?
1st... we are still learning, no one knows everything yet, what we have is the best available measurement with the current technology. This has changed several times in my life-time. 2nd... it is like the old trick question... if you are in the backseat of an aircraft traveling faster than sound and you speak to the pilot in the front seat, can he hear you? The answer is yes. sound travels through a medium at the speed of sound, it doesn't matter that the air inside the cockpit is past the speed of sound, the sound inside the cockpit travels at the speed of sound through the medium. It "seems" as if the sound is now travelling twice the speed of sound because the medium is wrapped in a bubble is moving while the sound inside is travelling. But speed of sound is still just the speed of sound, adjusted to various qualities of the medium, pressure and temperature, it is still just the speed of sound. Similarly, light travels through its medium, the universe of 3D space, but the fabric of the universe is expanding at the same time that light is moving through its medium. Gravity affects the speed of light the same as temperature or pressure affects the speed of sound, because gravity affects the shape of the medium that light travels in. The speed of the universe expansion makes it seem like light is travelling faster because the medium is in motion while the light is moving.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
universe of 3D space
Did you order Universe LiteTM? Pay a little more (or get the subscription) and you can get the 7, 11, 16 or 26 dimension version. I heard the 11 and 26 dimension versions are really unstable and back backwards compatibility problems, though.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
180 billion light years wide.
The question is, what is there, beyond those 180 billion light years? :~ No one can answer that question.
_____________________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA] - Developing ScrewTurn Wiki 1.0 RC
It folds in on itself to come back to the beginning. That is, the beginning of where the measuring started.
This statement is false.