The EU is out of their freaking minds
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
LOL. I hope Microsoft call their bluff. What would the EU do if Microsoft had Vista security so well done that there was no market for third party security vendors? Would they require MS to weaken Vista to let the competition back in? Security should be provided as much as possible by the vendor of the OS. If there are cracks that allow other vendors to play as well, then there's your market. If not, then even better, since we'll have a solid OS.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
The growth of Windows has always meant that things that people were able to sell before, suddenly came with the package. For example, Visual Studio addins are nice today, but VC6 without Visual Assist is untenable. It's obvious that competetion will continue to exist. If the MS products suck, that will cause other people to inovate. Some people will just buy third party stuff because MS has a bad track record in this area, and some people just don't like MS. Still others will have an existing product and continue to pay the subscription on it. No matter which way you look, MS making the OS more secure is a *good* thing, weren't these the same people charging to *nix because it was more secure ? It seems to me that Microsoft's biggest crime is the fact that they are successful. I sure don't see how creating an artificual vacuum is going to help anyone's security. I wonder what would happen if MS threatened to drop all support and stop selling into the EU until they are allowed to compete like any other company ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
:sigh:
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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The growth of Windows has always meant that things that people were able to sell before, suddenly came with the package. For example, Visual Studio addins are nice today, but VC6 without Visual Assist is untenable. It's obvious that competetion will continue to exist. If the MS products suck, that will cause other people to inovate. Some people will just buy third party stuff because MS has a bad track record in this area, and some people just don't like MS. Still others will have an existing product and continue to pay the subscription on it. No matter which way you look, MS making the OS more secure is a *good* thing, weren't these the same people charging to *nix because it was more secure ? It seems to me that Microsoft's biggest crime is the fact that they are successful. I sure don't see how creating an artificual vacuum is going to help anyone's security. I wonder what would happen if MS threatened to drop all support and stop selling into the EU until they are allowed to compete like any other company ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
It seems to me that Microsoft's biggest crime is the fact that they are successful.
Yes, it really stands up now a days. Perhaps because people cant figure why they are successful, people just assume they must have cheated. And then go looking for where they have cheated.
Abhishek The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself. --Mark Twain
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
As usual, feelings supersede logic. Microsoft sells in the EU because it is good business. Otherwise, they wouldn't. Calling for Microsoft to pull out is not unlike those guys that argue that we pay more than anyone for medical treatment because drug companies are forced to lose money overseas. Absurd. They are in the EU because it is a huge market and, if they didn't cater to it, someone else would. In relation to locking certain features, consider if VS would not allow you to run Visual Assist. One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one. Still, EU burocrats could be pissing against the wind while trying to call any attention whatsoever to themselves... if they are anything like the ones at home.
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As usual, feelings supersede logic. Microsoft sells in the EU because it is good business. Otherwise, they wouldn't. Calling for Microsoft to pull out is not unlike those guys that argue that we pay more than anyone for medical treatment because drug companies are forced to lose money overseas. Absurd. They are in the EU because it is a huge market and, if they didn't cater to it, someone else would. In relation to locking certain features, consider if VS would not allow you to run Visual Assist. One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one. Still, EU burocrats could be pissing against the wind while trying to call any attention whatsoever to themselves... if they are anything like the ones at home.
DaTxomin wrote:
One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one
Windows Firewall definately allows you to run another firewall, it even detects that you have and tells you that you are protected.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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As usual, feelings supersede logic. Microsoft sells in the EU because it is good business. Otherwise, they wouldn't. Calling for Microsoft to pull out is not unlike those guys that argue that we pay more than anyone for medical treatment because drug companies are forced to lose money overseas. Absurd. They are in the EU because it is a huge market and, if they didn't cater to it, someone else would. In relation to locking certain features, consider if VS would not allow you to run Visual Assist. One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one. Still, EU burocrats could be pissing against the wind while trying to call any attention whatsoever to themselves... if they are anything like the ones at home.
DaTxomin wrote:
In relation to locking certain features
Microsoft isn't locking anything. If you don't want to run the Vista firewall, you can disable it and run your own. Same with anti-virus and, I presume, anti-spyware tools. The statement by the EU is clear; Microsoft won't be able to ship any default security tools with Vista in Europe. I think Microsoft will threaten to pull out. The liability of remaining is simply too high. If they pull the features, they'll get sued when companies get hit. In the end, the companies and PC Vendors that matter in Europe will likely put pressure on the EU to drop this silliness.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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As usual, feelings supersede logic. Microsoft sells in the EU because it is good business. Otherwise, they wouldn't. Calling for Microsoft to pull out is not unlike those guys that argue that we pay more than anyone for medical treatment because drug companies are forced to lose money overseas. Absurd. They are in the EU because it is a huge market and, if they didn't cater to it, someone else would. In relation to locking certain features, consider if VS would not allow you to run Visual Assist. One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one. Still, EU burocrats could be pissing against the wind while trying to call any attention whatsoever to themselves... if they are anything like the ones at home.
DaTxomin wrote:
As usual, feelings supersede logic.
Of course. That's what this whole EU vs Microsoft thing is all about. There is no logic to it; the EU hates Microsoft.
DaTxomin wrote:
In relation to locking certain features, consider if VS would not allow you to run Visual Assist. One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one.
When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort?
Ryan
"Punctuality is only a virtue for those who aren't smart enough to think of good excuses for being late" John Nichol "Point Of Impact"
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
More $$$$ for EU..wait, that should be more €€€€ for EU. How can they not be happy having M$ as their ca$h cow? However, having said that, I believe they're just warning MS not to hinder other AntiVirus/Firewall/etc utilities by using undocumented APIs and/or purposefully preventing them to run effectively, or to bundle Windows Defender etc in their OS (i.e. to use their monopoly to gain entry into another market, similar to the recent WMP/IE issues).
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." - Thomas Jefferson "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin Edbert Sydney, Australia
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More $$$$ for EU..wait, that should be more €€€€ for EU. How can they not be happy having M$ as their ca$h cow? However, having said that, I believe they're just warning MS not to hinder other AntiVirus/Firewall/etc utilities by using undocumented APIs and/or purposefully preventing them to run effectively, or to bundle Windows Defender etc in their OS (i.e. to use their monopoly to gain entry into another market, similar to the recent WMP/IE issues).
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine." - Thomas Jefferson "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin Edbert Sydney, Australia
Edbert P wrote:
Windows Defender
Why not let them add Windows Defender? It's their OS. This whole EU episode is like dealing with the mob. No matter what Microsoft does, the EU changes the rules. In a ruling last year they even refused to disclose to Microsoft the actual complaints against them.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Well, actually there is a point. They did the same in Formula 1. They forbid things, year after year, to pick up the compitition between drivers instead of constructors. The bottom line was that the teams would find ways to upgrade the cars significantly by other means (innovations). They wouldn't have invented those upgrades if there weren't limitations and boundries to cross :-).
I've found a living worth working for, but I haven't found work worth living for.
Moviereview Archive
:beer:
:jig: :badger: -
As usual, feelings supersede logic. Microsoft sells in the EU because it is good business. Otherwise, they wouldn't. Calling for Microsoft to pull out is not unlike those guys that argue that we pay more than anyone for medical treatment because drug companies are forced to lose money overseas. Absurd. They are in the EU because it is a huge market and, if they didn't cater to it, someone else would. In relation to locking certain features, consider if VS would not allow you to run Visual Assist. One thing is to provide the best possible service, another to force you to use a particular one. Still, EU burocrats could be pissing against the wind while trying to call any attention whatsoever to themselves... if they are anything like the ones at home.
Ryan Binns wrote:
Of course. That's what this whole EU vs Microsoft thing is all about. There is no logic to it; the EU hates Microsoft.
The EU can't hate Microsoft although that may be *your feeling*. It can't because it is not a person. Some europeans hate Microsoft, others love it, most don't give a flying... What is certain is that the EU can be the object of hatred, perhaps yours, as can be the object of whatever feelings anyone may have.
Ryan Binns wrote:
When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort?
All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Microsoft isn't locking anything. If you don't want to run the Vista firewall, you can disable it and run your own. Same with anti-virus and, I presume, anti-spyware tools.
It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The statement by the EU is clear; Microsoft won't be able to ship any default security tools with Vista in Europe.
We will see.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I think Microsoft will threaten to pull out.
It is not a realistic threat but...
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The liability of remaining is simply too high. If they pull the features, they'll get sued when companies get hit.
... your argument is somewhat valid. On the other hand, can they sue now for the many and evident holes in security?
Edbert P wrote:
How can they not be happy having M$ as their ca$h cow? However, having said that, I believe they're just warning MS not to hinder other AntiVirus/Firewall/etc utilities by using undocumented APIs and/or purposefully preventing them to run effectively, or to bundle Windows Defender etc in their OS (i.e. to use their monopoly to gain entry into another market, similar to the recent WMP/IE issues).
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I thought that, e.g, OneCare wasn't being bundled anyway?
Kevin
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The growth of Windows has always meant that things that people were able to sell before, suddenly came with the package. For example, Visual Studio addins are nice today, but VC6 without Visual Assist is untenable. It's obvious that competetion will continue to exist. If the MS products suck, that will cause other people to inovate. Some people will just buy third party stuff because MS has a bad track record in this area, and some people just don't like MS. Still others will have an existing product and continue to pay the subscription on it. No matter which way you look, MS making the OS more secure is a *good* thing, weren't these the same people charging to *nix because it was more secure ? It seems to me that Microsoft's biggest crime is the fact that they are successful. I sure don't see how creating an artificual vacuum is going to help anyone's security. I wonder what would happen if MS threatened to drop all support and stop selling into the EU until they are allowed to compete like any other company ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
It seems to me that Microsoft's biggest crime is the fact that they are successful.
Yes. Although MS has been somewhat over-aggresive in the past they still would have been targeted without such behaviour. Notice what is starting to happen to Apple in their iPod-related business.
Kevin
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
And people made fun of my comment in the Remote Desktop thread below... :rolleyes:
Ðavid Wulff Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
10 PRINT 'HELLO MAINTAINER: GOTO HELL -
[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
After doing a bit of searching for the original quote (without the missing section denoted by ...), I was unable to find it.. However, I did find that the 'security product' that Jonathan Todd has said that he unhappy with on other occasions is the bundled DRM software, not the firewall and anti-virus software.
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
It's plainly sour grapes and penis envy. If the EU had a company anywhere near as successful as Microsoft they'd scream "protectionism!" and invoke the powers of the World Trade Organization if we tried anything like what they are doing. Witness what happened when we put a tarrif on cheap (dumped) steel. Hypocrits!
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
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Ryan Binns wrote:
Of course. That's what this whole EU vs Microsoft thing is all about. There is no logic to it; the EU hates Microsoft.
The EU can't hate Microsoft although that may be *your feeling*. It can't because it is not a person. Some europeans hate Microsoft, others love it, most don't give a flying... What is certain is that the EU can be the object of hatred, perhaps yours, as can be the object of whatever feelings anyone may have.
Ryan Binns wrote:
When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort?
All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts?
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Microsoft isn't locking anything. If you don't want to run the Vista firewall, you can disable it and run your own. Same with anti-virus and, I presume, anti-spyware tools.
It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The statement by the EU is clear; Microsoft won't be able to ship any default security tools with Vista in Europe.
We will see.
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I think Microsoft will threaten to pull out.
It is not a realistic threat but...
Joe Woodbury wrote:
The liability of remaining is simply too high. If they pull the features, they'll get sued when companies get hit.
... your argument is somewhat valid. On the other hand, can they sue now for the many and evident holes in security?
Edbert P wrote:
How can they not be happy having M$ as their ca$h cow? However, having said that, I believe they're just warning MS not to hinder other AntiVirus/Firewall/etc utilities by using undocumented APIs and/or purposefully preventing them to run effectively, or to bundle Windows Defender etc in their OS (i.e. to use their monopoly to gain entry into another market, similar to the recent WMP/IE issues).
DaTxomin wrote:
Ryan Binns wrote: When has Microsoft prevented you from using third-party programs of any sort? All the time and as much as they can get away with. They are in business, why wouldn't they? Out of the kindness of their hearts?
Uhh, that's pretty stupid. The whole point of Microsoft's OS's is to be able to run third party software. What paranoid idiocy!
DaTxomin wrote:
It is locking quite a bit. Consider the browser issue. Can't you uninstall IE? Can the average user? Some of us find it convenient to have IE preinstalled. Some of us also think that if it was truly optional and could be truly substituted for other browsers, many would use other browsers that are, for example, possibly better.
Yes, actually you can uninstall IE. Quite easily. I've done so. And, so what if IE is installed? It's clear you can install another browser! And even set it as the default for viewing the web! Witness the success of FireFox and Opera and other browsers. You can even customize IE and put your own shell around it and make it better than IE by itself! Other's have done it! Wow! Talk about "Locking". More idiocy. Penis Envy! Penis Envy!
Silence is the voice of complicity. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. -- monty python Might I suggest that the universe was always the size of the cosmos. It is just that at one point the cosmos was the size of a marble. -- Colin Angus Mackay
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[This isn't satire; it's a Reuters wire store from today.] BRUSSELS, Sept 12 - The European Commission warned Microsoft on Tuesday against foreclosing competition in computer security by tying security upgrades into its new Windows Vista operating system. Responding to expressions of concern by the U.S. software giant over the European Union regulator's stance, EU competition spokesman Jonathan Todd told a briefing it was up to Microsoft to ensure compliance with EU antitrust rules in the new system. Existing competition and diversity were the best way of improving software security, he said, adding: "Such diversity and innovation could be at risk if Microsoft was allowed to foreclose the existing competition in computer security markets ... by bundling its own security products into its dominant operating system."
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
If Microsoft really wanted to make an impression on the EC, they should simply stop selling and supporting all versions of windows in europe for a suitable period of time. It would be really interesting to see what happens - either the EC will be innundated with complaints that MS has pulled out of the market to the point that the EC will back off on the reins, or everyone will switch to Linux (and I don't see that happening). Sure, Microsoft would lose a good chunk of change on that deal, but they'd make a point - the world simply can't function without Windows.
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001