Microsoft certification question
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
This question is then obviously aimed more at the CP'ers that have found value in certifications. I'm just popping my 2c on here: About two months ago I began looking for contracting positions as a C# senior developer, at a higher than average rate. None of the about ten recruiters that contacted me even mentioned certifications.
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
It's good that you are intrested in going for certification This would always help you and ease in getting a job. If you are aiming at Sqlserver then you can go ahead Otherwise you can write MCP in C# 70-315 paper ,then got to Sqlserver
"Aim to go where U have never been B4 and Strive to achieve it" http://groups.yahoo.com/subscribe/dotnetforfreshers http://himabinduvejella.blogspot.com
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This question is then obviously aimed more at the CP'ers that have found value in certifications. I'm just popping my 2c on here: About two months ago I began looking for contracting positions as a C# senior developer, at a higher than average rate. None of the about ten recruiters that contacted me even mentioned certifications.
My company is currently looking for new developers (both permanent and freelance based) for a combination of web, Windows Forms and database (SQL) development work. We are more interested in a developer's ability to understand and solve real world problems, and deliver ease of use, accuracy and reliability - these are the key goals for our software applications and websites. And, while it is important that developers can leverage the best out of the technologies we use (primarily .NET 2.0), it's important that they are able to understand the users: what they really want, what they need, and how they behave - and that the developers can conceive solutions and parts of solutions that will work together. (Even if your 'end-user' is another developer, this ethos runs true). Of course, a good understanding of the technologies themselves is very important, but not through certification necessarily. If anything, we are put off by MS Certification when we see it on a CV as, in my experience at least, it indicates that a developer has great knowledge of syntax, but often has less understanding of real-world implementation and issues and less ability to really 'connect' with the way the end-user thinks and behaves. Those developers that can demonstrate a good understanding of people, business and problem solving skills in their software development are far more attractive to us. (And to those MS Certified developers out there who DO have good understanding of people, business and problem solving skills, you probably do exist - we just haven't met many of you yet!) ;) Chris Keeble PAM Software (UK) Ltd www.pamsoftware.com[^]
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
Hi leckey, I think a certification is good for beginners who don't have real project experience. For experienced developers it should be enough to show what they have done in the "real world". So when you're a beginner and you like databases it's fine to start with a database exam. Martin 2b||!2b?
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
I recommend the Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert (MCSE) exam. ;P
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
~ Web SQL Utility - asp.net app to query Access, SQL server, MySQL. Stores history, favourites.
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My company is currently looking for new developers (both permanent and freelance based) for a combination of web, Windows Forms and database (SQL) development work. We are more interested in a developer's ability to understand and solve real world problems, and deliver ease of use, accuracy and reliability - these are the key goals for our software applications and websites. And, while it is important that developers can leverage the best out of the technologies we use (primarily .NET 2.0), it's important that they are able to understand the users: what they really want, what they need, and how they behave - and that the developers can conceive solutions and parts of solutions that will work together. (Even if your 'end-user' is another developer, this ethos runs true). Of course, a good understanding of the technologies themselves is very important, but not through certification necessarily. If anything, we are put off by MS Certification when we see it on a CV as, in my experience at least, it indicates that a developer has great knowledge of syntax, but often has less understanding of real-world implementation and issues and less ability to really 'connect' with the way the end-user thinks and behaves. Those developers that can demonstrate a good understanding of people, business and problem solving skills in their software development are far more attractive to us. (And to those MS Certified developers out there who DO have good understanding of people, business and problem solving skills, you probably do exist - we just haven't met many of you yet!) ;) Chris Keeble PAM Software (UK) Ltd www.pamsoftware.com[^]
I don't have certification but one of my colleague's who's an MCSD reckons it's definitely helped him get a high contract rate. Of course, he has experience + cert. OTOH, there are few advertised jobs that insist on certification, but it may be an added bonus.
Kevin
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
I have not taken any certifications, so this information is second hand... A former co-worker, Jeremy, (worked with him for 6 years after he finished college) took a job with a consulting company. This company contracts to provide complete package solutions for other companies, so their people have to be technically proficient. Jeremy, and others at his workplace, were told to get his certification in the database area by the end of the year. They are also paid a bonus for each test past, so, the company must see value in having experienced, certified developers. It that helps you... Tim
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Hi leckey, I think a certification is good for beginners who don't have real project experience. For experienced developers it should be enough to show what they have done in the "real world". So when you're a beginner and you like databases it's fine to start with a database exam. Martin 2b||!2b?
M.Vo. wrote:
I think a certification is good for beginners who don't have real project experience. For experienced developers it should be enough to show what they have done in the "real world".
Sorry, Martin, but I don't agree with you, not totally, at least. Experience "on field" is certainly very important, but some theorical background can really help to solve problems more efficently. Preparing examinations (if not passing them), actually helps in the "real world". As far as database concerned, many "experienced developers" consider database just a way to easily store data without all the hassle that Cobol-like programming requires: right these days I'm facing with an "experienced developer" who thinks that a daily backup is fairly enough to properly mantain a MS-SQL Server database (vendor is irrilevant, I think). The result: odd and random errors in connecting data, or - believe it or not - the user has to access application module in a certain, precise order:mad:. And now, the final surprise: I'm not certified! Well, I actually bought and read books on the topic, but I never tried to pass MS examinations. In other words: in my very humble opinion, field experience is really important, but I think that having inner knowledge of the tools (database, language, operating system or whatever) is really a plus.
Marco Turrini
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M.Vo. wrote:
I think a certification is good for beginners who don't have real project experience. For experienced developers it should be enough to show what they have done in the "real world".
Sorry, Martin, but I don't agree with you, not totally, at least. Experience "on field" is certainly very important, but some theorical background can really help to solve problems more efficently. Preparing examinations (if not passing them), actually helps in the "real world". As far as database concerned, many "experienced developers" consider database just a way to easily store data without all the hassle that Cobol-like programming requires: right these days I'm facing with an "experienced developer" who thinks that a daily backup is fairly enough to properly mantain a MS-SQL Server database (vendor is irrilevant, I think). The result: odd and random errors in connecting data, or - believe it or not - the user has to access application module in a certain, precise order:mad:. And now, the final surprise: I'm not certified! Well, I actually bought and read books on the topic, but I never tried to pass MS examinations. In other words: in my very humble opinion, field experience is really important, but I think that having inner knowledge of the tools (database, language, operating system or whatever) is really a plus.
Marco Turrini
I must agree with Marco. Just having the Cert doesn't help that much. However, it does seem to push you to the top of the pile when you have some experience with it. I had been talking to several companies, contract work, about positions they had. One was in Atlanta, one was in Charlotte, and one was in Jacksonville, FL. None were really moving along that quickly. I was also in the process of taking my last test for my MCAD cert. The day I finished the cert, I actually talked to all 3 contract firms and 2 offered me the job, simply because I had the certification and was now more valuable then the candidates without a cert. Atlanta simply gave up because they knew that I was more than they could afford. It didn't hurt that I have 14 years of professional programming experience (and 6 more while I was still in Jr. High and High School). When I had the certification, they saw me as more qualified than someone with the same experience that I had. If you are already in the field and are having trouble getting market rates for your job because of alot of other candidates, get the certification. It will push your resume to the top of the pile. Let's face it, a degree is just a piece of paper to get you past HR. The hiring manager sets the list of requirements and the HR person will trash every resume submitted that doesn't meet the minimum requirements. They then put the resumes into 2 piles, "meets requirements" and "exceeds requirements". (HR friend told me this). A hiring manager goes through the "Exceeds requirements" pile FIRST. That is usually where the candidate comes from! If you just meet, you may not even be seen! I found it worthwhile!:cool: I have NO college degree and have been chosen over college grads several times in my career just because of experience or certifications!
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer.NET
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
hi, I got my MCAD about 2 months ago in VB .net.You can go ahead and take SQL server if you've some work exp in it.I didn't find it hard 'coz I'd knowledge of client -server concepts/SQL/PL/SQL etc..so,i felt the exam was easy.Re! certifications, I'd have to say that with good work exp, a certification definitely helps atleast to get to the interview stage. Good luck and have fun
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M.Vo. wrote:
I think a certification is good for beginners who don't have real project experience. For experienced developers it should be enough to show what they have done in the "real world".
Sorry, Martin, but I don't agree with you, not totally, at least. Experience "on field" is certainly very important, but some theorical background can really help to solve problems more efficently. Preparing examinations (if not passing them), actually helps in the "real world". As far as database concerned, many "experienced developers" consider database just a way to easily store data without all the hassle that Cobol-like programming requires: right these days I'm facing with an "experienced developer" who thinks that a daily backup is fairly enough to properly mantain a MS-SQL Server database (vendor is irrilevant, I think). The result: odd and random errors in connecting data, or - believe it or not - the user has to access application module in a certain, precise order:mad:. And now, the final surprise: I'm not certified! Well, I actually bought and read books on the topic, but I never tried to pass MS examinations. In other words: in my very humble opinion, field experience is really important, but I think that having inner knowledge of the tools (database, language, operating system or whatever) is really a plus.
Marco Turrini
Hi Marco, no need to apologize ;) First: I had the implicit assumption the certification was for getting a job. When I have two candidates for a job, both beginners and one of them has a certification this one is the first I invite for an interview. With two experienced candidates the projects count and in the interview I try to find out if he or she is a hacker or a developer. Second: a certification is certainly no substitute for a theoretical background and understanding what one is doing. Martin
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M.Vo. wrote:
I think a certification is good for beginners who don't have real project experience. For experienced developers it should be enough to show what they have done in the "real world".
Sorry, Martin, but I don't agree with you, not totally, at least. Experience "on field" is certainly very important, but some theorical background can really help to solve problems more efficently. Preparing examinations (if not passing them), actually helps in the "real world". As far as database concerned, many "experienced developers" consider database just a way to easily store data without all the hassle that Cobol-like programming requires: right these days I'm facing with an "experienced developer" who thinks that a daily backup is fairly enough to properly mantain a MS-SQL Server database (vendor is irrilevant, I think). The result: odd and random errors in connecting data, or - believe it or not - the user has to access application module in a certain, precise order:mad:. And now, the final surprise: I'm not certified! Well, I actually bought and read books on the topic, but I never tried to pass MS examinations. In other words: in my very humble opinion, field experience is really important, but I think that having inner knowledge of the tools (database, language, operating system or whatever) is really a plus.
Marco Turrini
Marco Turrini wrote:
these days I'm facing with an "experienced developer" who thinks that a daily backup is fairly enough to properly mantain a MS-SQL Server database (vendor is irrilevant, I think). The result: odd and random errors in connecting data, or - believe it or not - the user has to access application module in a certain, precise order.
The problem with experience is that while it's a good teacher, not everyone is a good student, and experience doesn't give grades, it's just pass/fail. As in all things, balance: not JUST experience, not JUST theoretical study.
jdo
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Marco Turrini wrote:
these days I'm facing with an "experienced developer" who thinks that a daily backup is fairly enough to properly mantain a MS-SQL Server database (vendor is irrilevant, I think). The result: odd and random errors in connecting data, or - believe it or not - the user has to access application module in a certain, precise order.
The problem with experience is that while it's a good teacher, not everyone is a good student, and experience doesn't give grades, it's just pass/fail. As in all things, balance: not JUST experience, not JUST theoretical study.
jdo
josborne wrote:
As in all things, balance: not JUST experience, not JUST theoretical study.
That's exactly what I meant! A little bit of study would have (probably) given that programmer some hint of what was happening without "crushing his head on the wall" (Italian saying, I don't know if there's similar in English)
Marco Turrini
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My first paper for MCAD was 70-229 (SQL Server) and I think it was a great start. My two paise regarding MS certifications - its a great systematic way to learn new technology; it is too easy to get lost in these waters :) namaste, Nitin
Thought I'd throw in my 2c. I think Certifications is a complete waste of time, I say this I endured doing my MCSD in VB6, I studied for them wrote the exams past them, and then a month later started using .net 1.0 Beta. From that point on I don't think I have opened a VB6 project to start developing, I have opened many to port to .net 1.1. But my MSCD as not helped me in 1 Iota in my career, so much so I think I have taken it off my CV. I found the questions I answered while doing my exams were not very relevant to programming, more to how to use the tools, and to be honest they were just pedantic, and stuff the average developer would not even worry about in day to day life. As a senior Developer interviewing candidates for a position , I would overlook any Certifications in a CV and look more for practical experience, and ask the prospective developer to answer my own Technical test to be better gauge thier experience and abilities than some 2 bit piece of paper.
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I know some of you are not big into certifications but I am seriously considering starting to study for some certifications. So my question is, what do you think is the best one to start with? I like database stuff the best so I'm thinking SQL server, but wanted to know if someone 'had to do it over' would recommend another one first.
Your money will be much better spent on some books or the like. I have no microsoft certifications and have worked in IT for 15 years, the last three of which as a Senior Systems Architect. Also, as someone who employs a number of developers, I can tell you a MS certification does absolutely nothing to sway my decision.
What's this button do?
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josborne wrote:
As in all things, balance: not JUST experience, not JUST theoretical study.
That's exactly what I meant! A little bit of study would have (probably) given that programmer some hint of what was happening without "crushing his head on the wall" (Italian saying, I don't know if there's similar in English)
Marco Turrini
What i feel is that certification DOES count when u have the required skills and experience. It gives u some prefernce over the other non-ceritified candidates(but there r exceptions to this rule; may be some managers had prior bad exp with a certified guy, so they may have a bias against certified guys) Much depends on how u pass the exams, rather than just getting it. There is the easy way and the tough way. I've seen some of my friends, who have passed 3 exmas (for mcad) in a weeks time. And mind u , they 've passed with almost cent percent marks. U all know how they did it . For me , it took around 3 months to study and pass each exam. I feel it does help u in long run, as u get to know about the real world situations and problems faced. If u pass the easy way, cert is just a piece of crap.
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Your money will be much better spent on some books or the like. I have no microsoft certifications and have worked in IT for 15 years, the last three of which as a Senior Systems Architect. Also, as someone who employs a number of developers, I can tell you a MS certification does absolutely nothing to sway my decision.
What's this button do?
As a MCSD.NET certified programmer I would concede that you could learn to use MS development products though books, it's picking useful ones out from the pile without spending a fortune. Having a good mentor helps and this is where instructors can offer tips and guidelines (bug avoidance in some cases). In my opinion it’s a shame that Microsoft certification does not go into more depth or cover ‘real world’ use. To bring yourself up to date with the various technologies, I would join the various websites where programmers demonstrate their skills and from which you can learn. When assessing potential employees, relevant experience is important but not every programmer or developer can acquire ‘golden opportunities’ to enhance their C.V. Proof or ‘proven track record’ relies on references and good technical interviews in addition to a C.V. For some programmers the only option is to certify in order to demonstrate knowledge to a certain level. Just a quick question, if you had two candidates of equal age neither with commercial experience. One had Microsoft certification and had developed some software components for CodeProject, the other a general computing degree. Who would you hire given all other considerations equal? In my opinion there needs to be some way to ‘capture’ programmer experience and pass this on to others in some form of recognised qualification/certification standard. At the moment the only route to 'experience' other than living it, is via books (these date quickly but provide a good starting point) and programming websites (these constantly change). Certification, if done properly, does show a level of knowledge on a subject and can form a basis for further study. Hope this helps.
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As a MCSD.NET certified programmer I would concede that you could learn to use MS development products though books, it's picking useful ones out from the pile without spending a fortune. Having a good mentor helps and this is where instructors can offer tips and guidelines (bug avoidance in some cases). In my opinion it’s a shame that Microsoft certification does not go into more depth or cover ‘real world’ use. To bring yourself up to date with the various technologies, I would join the various websites where programmers demonstrate their skills and from which you can learn. When assessing potential employees, relevant experience is important but not every programmer or developer can acquire ‘golden opportunities’ to enhance their C.V. Proof or ‘proven track record’ relies on references and good technical interviews in addition to a C.V. For some programmers the only option is to certify in order to demonstrate knowledge to a certain level. Just a quick question, if you had two candidates of equal age neither with commercial experience. One had Microsoft certification and had developed some software components for CodeProject, the other a general computing degree. Who would you hire given all other considerations equal? In my opinion there needs to be some way to ‘capture’ programmer experience and pass this on to others in some form of recognised qualification/certification standard. At the moment the only route to 'experience' other than living it, is via books (these date quickly but provide a good starting point) and programming websites (these constantly change). Certification, if done properly, does show a level of knowledge on a subject and can form a basis for further study. Hope this helps.
mdmasonmbcs wrote:
if you had two candidates of equal age neither with commercial experience. One had Microsoft certification and had developed some software components for CodeProject, the other a general computing degree. Who would you hire given all other considerations equal?
Neither, I would source a junior from university through a recommendation, that is the _only_ way i hire people, word of mouth.
computers are for dicks
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mdmasonmbcs wrote:
if you had two candidates of equal age neither with commercial experience. One had Microsoft certification and had developed some software components for CodeProject, the other a general computing degree. Who would you hire given all other considerations equal?
Neither, I would source a junior from university through a recommendation, that is the _only_ way i hire people, word of mouth.
computers are for dicks
Not everyone is fortunate enough to have close ties with university students and the opportunity to cherry pick the best graduates (juniors). Recommendations are subject to the reputation of the person giving them. Projects don't always coincide with junior availability and often recommend juniors have competing offers. Faced with a mountain of C.V. and a long list of interviews the choice becomes more risky. To get back to the subject of this thread, Microsoft certification or book learning only forms a basis from which experience develops. I don’t wish to seem critical just asking the wider questions on training and qualifications. After all we all want able and proficient programmers on our teams, it’s getting them that’s the difficult bit.