Yo espeir!
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Red Stateler wrote:
1. He still believed in God, but decided to turn against Him by committing an act of evil or, 2. He ceased to believe in God and, as is usually the case, expressed "anger with God" in the sense that he was angry that God didn't exist.
So naturally, you picked option 2 [far-fetched as it may be: "I'm angry at you even though you don't exist"] because it fits your anti-atheist agenda.
If [God] knows what we are going to do then we have no free will and are just characters in a play written by him. Without free will, morality for humans makes no sense. Without free will and morality, any sort of punishment or reward system loses any justification. Heaven and hell would be places where [God] could watch the souls he created, predestined just for eternal happiness or agony. - Mark Thomas
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
So naturally, you picked option 2 [far-fetched as it may be: "I'm angry at you even though you don't exist"] because it fits your anti-atheist agenda.
No, it's actually pretty typical. Anger with God is usually associated with the fact that he doesn't intervene in your daily life, so blame is placed on his absence (the foundation of atheism).
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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Thomas George wrote:
It seems that his disappointment with the expectations created by the preachers and pastors that caused this unfortunate event.
He didn't say he was angry with his preacher/pastor. He said he was "angry with God" which indicates a departure from Him. That could mean only one of two things: 1. He still believed in God, but decided to turn against Him by committing an act of evil or, 2. He ceased to believe in God and, as is usually the case, expressed "anger with God" in the sense that he was angry that God didn't exist. Therefore, this was a crime committed expressly for the glory of Godlessness.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
Being angry with someone does not mean that he denies his existence. The shooter was merely trying to get attention like a child doing some tantrums to get attention (like in Problem Child). His reaction shows how much he relied on God to bail him out of whatever situation he was in. His problem seems to be that he read too much into the feel good "God will never let you down" BS that got him attracted in the first place. The guy was angry that God is ignoring him; not that he does not exist. Turning against God is not atheism. You still believe that there is a God -- but, you believe additionally that He does not love you that much. God is not erased, but he changes from a loving to a uncaring God. The big thing in being a pastor is that he never claims he can do anything. He is just someone who conveys the message from God, and hence proclaimed by self as insignificant. If he thought that God did not exist, a reasonable action would have been to shoot a few pastors (for misleading him) rather than shooting down some guys in an Amish village. I think that he was traumatized by something in his life that he lapsed into insanity. ... and blamed God for all his problems. Once again, his expection from God did not materialize -- the preachers/pastors are the ones who built up those expectations. Thomas
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Shooter was NOT atheist Shooter angry with life[^] Roberts left notes to his wife and his children, claiming "he was angry with life, he was angry with God," said Pennsylvania State Police Commissioner Col. Jeffrey B. Miller. If he was angry with God he MUST believe in God, thus he's not an atheist. Given his age, ethnicity and our society - it's quite likely he was a christian. IMO his religion (or lack of religion) hardly matters in the whole scheme of things but it seemed important to you so I thought I'd point it out. In the end, innocent children were killed and wounded. Neither our society nor your God did anything to stop it.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
So naturally, you picked option 2 [far-fetched as it may be: "I'm angry at you even though you don't exist"] because it fits your anti-atheist agenda.
No, it's actually pretty typical. Anger with God is usually associated with the fact that he doesn't intervene in your daily life, so blame is placed on his absence (the foundation of atheism).
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
If your wife does not show up on your anniversary, it does not mean that she does not exist. His anger was because God was absent from *his* life; but, working wonders in others' life by their own testimony. You know how people stand up and talk about all the miracles that God did in their lives.
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Alvaro Mendez wrote:
So naturally, you picked option 2 [far-fetched as it may be: "I'm angry at you even though you don't exist"] because it fits your anti-atheist agenda.
No, it's actually pretty typical. Anger with God is usually associated with the fact that he doesn't intervene in your daily life, so blame is placed on his absence (the foundation of atheism).
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
Red Stateler wrote:
Anger with God is usually associated with the fact that he doesn't intervene in your daily life, so blame is placed on his absence (the foundation of atheism).
I see. So anger over God not responding to prayers leads people to the conclusion that God must not exist, which is then followed by rampant immorality, like rape, murder, incest, child molestation, abortion, homosexuality, and adultery. Is this what your research has concluded?
If [God] knows what we are going to do then we have no free will and are just characters in a play written by him. Without free will, morality for humans makes no sense. Without free will and morality, any sort of punishment or reward system loses any justification. Heaven and hell would be places where [God] could watch the souls he created, predestined just for eternal happiness or agony. - Mark Thomas
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If your wife does not show up on your anniversary, it does not mean that she does not exist. His anger was because God was absent from *his* life; but, working wonders in others' life by their own testimony. You know how people stand up and talk about all the miracles that God did in their lives.
Unless I'm mad, I have evidence that my wife exists. There is no evidence that God exists. Metaphorical anger with God to indicated Godlessness is not uncommon. At a minimum he actively rejected Christianity.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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It seems that his disappointment with the expectations created by the preachers and pastors that caused this unfortunate event.
Thomas George wrote:
created by the preachers and pastors that caused this unfortunate event.
That is absurd. Lets give credit where credit is due. This happened not because of the man's religion but because he was fricking crazy. Healthy, sane people do not just start shooting at people. If there is any blame to be placed it would be on any people who saw this coming and didn't try to get the man help.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love
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The BBC news earlier hinted that 20 years ago, when he was 12, he was humiliated by a girl in some way and a recent family miscarriage pushed him over the edge. What a fucked up world we live in.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
The "recent miscarriage" was his own and, from the article I read, occurred 9 years ago.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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Red Stateler wrote:
Anger with God is usually associated with the fact that he doesn't intervene in your daily life, so blame is placed on his absence (the foundation of atheism).
I see. So anger over God not responding to prayers leads people to the conclusion that God must not exist, which is then followed by rampant immorality, like rape, murder, incest, child molestation, abortion, homosexuality, and adultery. Is this what your research has concluded?
If [God] knows what we are going to do then we have no free will and are just characters in a play written by him. Without free will, morality for humans makes no sense. Without free will and morality, any sort of punishment or reward system loses any justification. Heaven and hell would be places where [God] could watch the souls he created, predestined just for eternal happiness or agony. - Mark Thomas
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
Is this what your research has concluded?
No research.....just dogma.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love
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Thomas George wrote:
created by the preachers and pastors that caused this unfortunate event.
That is absurd. Lets give credit where credit is due. This happened not because of the man's religion but because he was fricking crazy. Healthy, sane people do not just start shooting at people. If there is any blame to be placed it would be on any people who saw this coming and didn't try to get the man help.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love
I don't think he was crazy at all. I think he was overcome by evil. If you read what happened, he was completely lucid and planned the whole thing in great detail. Crazy people do not write clear letters of intent to their wives, spend the morning delivering milk, then shoot up a school of little girls. Let's not confuse evil with insanity (which is an inability to recognize your own actions).
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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Unless I'm mad, I have evidence that my wife exists. There is no evidence that God exists. Metaphorical anger with God to indicated Godlessness is not uncommon. At a minimum he actively rejected Christianity.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
Red Stateler wrote:
At a minimum he actively rejected Christianity.
By that logic every christian who has ever sinned is not a christian.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
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Red Stateler wrote:
Anger with God is usually associated with the fact that he doesn't intervene in your daily life, so blame is placed on his absence (the foundation of atheism).
I see. So anger over God not responding to prayers leads people to the conclusion that God must not exist, which is then followed by rampant immorality, like rape, murder, incest, child molestation, abortion, homosexuality, and adultery. Is this what your research has concluded?
If [God] knows what we are going to do then we have no free will and are just characters in a play written by him. Without free will, morality for humans makes no sense. Without free will and morality, any sort of punishment or reward system loses any justification. Heaven and hell would be places where [God] could watch the souls he created, predestined just for eternal happiness or agony. - Mark Thomas
Alvaro Mendez wrote:
So anger over God not responding to prayers leads people to the conclusion that God must not exist, which is then followed by rampant immorality, like rape, murder, incest, child molestation, abortion, homosexuality, and adultery. Is this what your research has concluded?
In the case of this man...That's entirely plausible.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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Unless I'm mad, I have evidence that my wife exists. There is no evidence that God exists. Metaphorical anger with God to indicated Godlessness is not uncommon. At a minimum he actively rejected Christianity.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
By that definition, all crimes are committed by atheists; but, still it is his disappointment with the Christian God to fulfill the promises made by the Bible and the preachers that caused the reaction. If he never believed in God, then he may not have had the same reaction to whatever stimulus he had. Hey, I am not the one looking at the banana and say that "God exists. He designed the handle for us. How considerate.". I don't go around saying that God cured me of my illnesses. All these are supposed to be evidences that draw people to God. These "evidences" did not disappear -- did they? but, these miracles did not happen to him when he needed it most. The violence was because his *love* changed to *hate*. If he were a non-believer and did not care about God ever, he would never have had this outburst of emotion.
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I don't think he was crazy at all. I think he was overcome by evil. If you read what happened, he was completely lucid and planned the whole thing in great detail. Crazy people do not write clear letters of intent to their wives, spend the morning delivering milk, then shoot up a school of little girls. Let's not confuse evil with insanity (which is an inability to recognize your own actions).
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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Red Stateler wrote:
At a minimum he actively rejected Christianity.
By that logic every christian who has ever sinned is not a christian.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
Actually there's a specific sin that denotes rejection of Christianity. Otherwise, sin itself is recognized by Christians as an inherent part of the human condition.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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Red Stateler wrote:
At a minimum he actively rejected Christianity.
By that logic every christian who has ever sinned is not a christian.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." - Dr. Seuss
Exactly. Mr. Stateler just makes some bizarre arguments.
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By that definition, all crimes are committed by atheists; but, still it is his disappointment with the Christian God to fulfill the promises made by the Bible and the preachers that caused the reaction. If he never believed in God, then he may not have had the same reaction to whatever stimulus he had. Hey, I am not the one looking at the banana and say that "God exists. He designed the handle for us. How considerate.". I don't go around saying that God cured me of my illnesses. All these are supposed to be evidences that draw people to God. These "evidences" did not disappear -- did they? but, these miracles did not happen to him when he needed it most. The violence was because his *love* changed to *hate*. If he were a non-believer and did not care about God ever, he would never have had this outburst of emotion.
Thomas George wrote:
By that definition, all crimes are committed by atheists; but, still it is his disappointment with the Christian God to fulfill the promises made by the Bible and the preachers that caused the reaction. If he never believed in God, then he may not have had the same reaction to whatever stimulus he had.
How does that fit the definition I gave?
Thomas George wrote:
Hey, I am not the one looking at the banana and say that "God exists. He designed the handle for us. How considerate.". I don't go around saying that God cured me of my illnesses. All these are supposed to be evidences that draw people to God. These "evidences" did not disappear -- did they? but, these miracles did not happen to him when he needed it most. The violence was because his *love* changed to *hate*. If he were a non-believer and did not care about God ever, he would never have had this outburst of emotion.
I can't attempt to identify what caused him to actively reject God, just that (per his own letter) he did.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Shooter was NOT atheist
Says who? Nietzsche said "God is dead" and he was an atheist.
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
If you're gonna quote something, make sure you understand it first. Ok? :)
-- Mit viel Oktan und frei von Blei, eine Kraftstoff wie Benziiiiiiin!
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Thomas George wrote:
created by the preachers and pastors that caused this unfortunate event.
That is absurd. Lets give credit where credit is due. This happened not because of the man's religion but because he was fricking crazy. Healthy, sane people do not just start shooting at people. If there is any blame to be placed it would be on any people who saw this coming and didn't try to get the man help.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love
Of course, he is nuts. But, I am just making the point that it could be argued both ways. But, when a nutcase gets disappointed, and he got disappointed because he believed that God will save him from all problems, the outcome will not be good. Sanity demands that religion be taken with a pinch of salt.
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I don't think he was crazy at all. I think he was overcome by evil. If you read what happened, he was completely lucid and planned the whole thing in great detail. Crazy people do not write clear letters of intent to their wives, spend the morning delivering milk, then shoot up a school of little girls. Let's not confuse evil with insanity (which is an inability to recognize your own actions).
"You act like jew." -Score: 1.0 (3 votes).
Red Stateler wrote:
I think he was overcome by evil.
please. This is more supernaturalist nonsense.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love