Back to school ...
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Chris Maunder wrote:
It's not the "how do I solve really hard equations" bit of mathematics that's so important, it's the "how do I solve really difficult problems using in a logical, precise and rigourous method" that's important. Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts.
Chris, your love affair with Mathematics is too well known for anyone to take your Math opinions as unbiased comments :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*) -
It's not the "how do I solve really hard equations" bit of mathematics that's so important, it's the "how do I solve really difficult problems using in a logical, precise and rigourous method" that's important. Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Hear hear. As anybody who's done things like Applied and Advanced maths will testify. Solving the equation is easy;), as long as you can determine what the constituent parts are - anybody remember "gravity acting at a point on a slope"?
Arthur Dent - "That would explain it. All my life I've had this strange feeling that there's something big and sinister going on in the world." Slartibartfast - "No. That's perfectly normal paranoia. Everybody in the universe gets that." Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
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So as I sit looking through various different college catalogs, viewing the requirements for different Computer Science degrees, I can't help but stop and wonder ... How much of this Calc I, II, III, and IV am I really going to use in the real world? Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice? I just finished my Associates degree (emphasis: programmer/analyst), and now I am continuing on to receive my Bachelors (emphasis: Internet Web Application Development), and God willing then my Masters (emphasis: software engineering) Comments, thoughts, help, anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
What we need is a patch for human stupidity
Xaverian wrote:
Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice?
Maybe. As Chris said, it's more about teaching you new ways of thinking than anything. I remember hardly anything specific about most of the maths i studied ten years or so ago, but the discipline required to analyze a problem, find a solution, prove that solution... that stuff sticks with you. And trust me, it shows in your work. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from learning by rule and by rote, in which case it'll do you very little good and waste a lot of time. You get out what you put in... ;)
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Xaverian wrote:
ForumThe Lounge Subject:Re: Back to school ... Sender:Xaverian Date:10:12 17 Nov '06 Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
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Xaverian wrote:
ForumThe Lounge Subject:Re: Back to school ... Sender:Xaverian Date:10:12 17 Nov '06 Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.
I heard that, when he dies, he's giving his eyes to Stevie Wonder.
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It's not the "how do I solve really hard equations" bit of mathematics that's so important, it's the "how do I solve really difficult problems using in a logical, precise and rigourous method" that's important. Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts
Well put :-D
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So as I sit looking through various different college catalogs, viewing the requirements for different Computer Science degrees, I can't help but stop and wonder ... How much of this Calc I, II, III, and IV am I really going to use in the real world? Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice? I just finished my Associates degree (emphasis: programmer/analyst), and now I am continuing on to receive my Bachelors (emphasis: Internet Web Application Development), and God willing then my Masters (emphasis: software engineering) Comments, thoughts, help, anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
What we need is a patch for human stupidity
Solving calculus equations is not too much different than solving programming problems. It's an excellent exercise of the mind. Calc IV at our school was a lot of vector math, which is really useful for 3D programming. I also had differential equations and discrete math. Discrete math is having more to do with logic and I think applies well to programming. Diff eq was just plain fun. Cryptography, probability, and graphics will all use your math skills. It's definitely useful.
Logifusion[^]
"This isn't a business. I've always thought of it as a source of cheap labor. Like a family." -
I changed to Computer Science after several majors (nursing, biology/pre-med, biochem/pre-med, journalism....)and i think all accredited schools (in the US) for Computer Science make you take way too much math. We only had to take Calc I and Calc II though. Calc III was optional, and we didn't have a Calc IV. If you really have to take all of them, my condolences. However discrete math, and set and logic theory rocked!
For CS I had to take through calc III, and either stats or linear equations. Calc IV was the unofficial name for ordinary differential equations. It was numbered in a way that would correspond to calc IV, but since only calc II was required they couldn't call it that. I needed calc IV for a planned double major, and since taking it precluded the lower level linear equations class (other option was 'prep for grad school' level) I took stats. One of the two biggest mistakes I made in scheduling, and one of the three classes I worried about failing. In all three cases the prof used an agressive curve to mask his failure to teach and I passed.
-- Rules of thumb should not be taken for the whole hand.
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It's not the "how do I solve really hard equations" bit of mathematics that's so important, it's the "how do I solve really difficult problems using in a logical, precise and rigourous method" that's important. Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts.
But sadly, those that teach math teach so that students can pass tests, which means facts, not thinking. At least here in the US, where test scores drive funding. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
So as I sit looking through various different college catalogs, viewing the requirements for different Computer Science degrees, I can't help but stop and wonder ... How much of this Calc I, II, III, and IV am I really going to use in the real world? Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice? I just finished my Associates degree (emphasis: programmer/analyst), and now I am continuing on to receive my Bachelors (emphasis: Internet Web Application Development), and God willing then my Masters (emphasis: software engineering) Comments, thoughts, help, anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
What we need is a patch for human stupidity
Pretty much what everyone else has said. Mathematics is about learning how to solve problems and show that your solution is correct, however most of calculus is rote formula memorization unfortunately. It really depends on how your department is set up. I found that physics at that level is more about problem solving then the math is, but you need the math for physics. However, I do web app development and there really isn't that much mathematical style problem solving needed. Good UI design is probably the hardest part followed by a good business layer api design. UI design is hard in a completely different way, and the business stuff really isn't that hard, it just gets complicated some times.
Using the GridView is like trying to explain to someone else how to move a third person's hands in order to tie your shoelaces for you. -Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote:
Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts.
But sadly, those that teach math teach so that students can pass tests, which means facts, not thinking. At least here in the US, where test scores drive funding. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
It's not the "how do I solve really hard equations" bit of mathematics that's so important, it's the "how do I solve really difficult problems using in a logical, precise and rigourous method" that's important. Mathematics doesn't teach you facts, it teaches you how to find facts.
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP
I think this can be extended to your entire education. What's more important than what you learn is that you learn to think rationally, use the scientific method and learn how to do research. Most of what you learn in Computer Science (or any other field) doesn't directly apply to the work you end up doing. Many of the best software developers don't even have Computer Science degrees and I have interview plenty of people who did have Computer Science degrees who were quite clueless about software development. I don't know whether that is an indictment against Computer Science education or education in general. :) Actually, I think higher education is a good thing, it's more a problem that too many people are education-proof. :doh:
Matt Gerrans
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So as I sit looking through various different college catalogs, viewing the requirements for different Computer Science degrees, I can't help but stop and wonder ... How much of this Calc I, II, III, and IV am I really going to use in the real world? Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice? I just finished my Associates degree (emphasis: programmer/analyst), and now I am continuing on to receive my Bachelors (emphasis: Internet Web Application Development), and God willing then my Masters (emphasis: software engineering) Comments, thoughts, help, anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
What we need is a patch for human stupidity
Xaverian wrote:
How much of this Calc I, II, III, and IV am I really going to use in the real world? Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice?
The mathematics I was taught in school have helped me solve problems on occasions. It's not like I need calculus for my day-to-day job, but it has indeed come in handy. Learn all you can! You'll never know if it's useful until you need it. :)
-- Nominated For Three Glemmys
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So as I sit looking through various different college catalogs, viewing the requirements for different Computer Science degrees, I can't help but stop and wonder ... How much of this Calc I, II, III, and IV am I really going to use in the real world? Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice? I just finished my Associates degree (emphasis: programmer/analyst), and now I am continuing on to receive my Bachelors (emphasis: Internet Web Application Development), and God willing then my Masters (emphasis: software engineering) Comments, thoughts, help, anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
What we need is a patch for human stupidity
Thank you everyone for your thoughts/comments/suggestions, your replies have given me a little more insight towards what I should do in order to achieve the goals I aspire to reach. I have found that I can circumvent the system without having to take a lot of math in order to finish out my schooling. However, and I should say, that it isn't without any math, just not 4 quarters of Calculus. I may just for grins take a Calculus class, but not two. Thank you again everyone - you've all been helpful :) Cheers, Xaverian P.S. Happy belated birthday CP :)
What we need is a patch for human stupidity - no really, I could use it!
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts/comments/suggestions, your replies have given me a little more insight towards what I should do in order to achieve the goals I aspire to reach. I have found that I can circumvent the system without having to take a lot of math in order to finish out my schooling. However, and I should say, that it isn't without any math, just not 4 quarters of Calculus. I may just for grins take a Calculus class, but not two. Thank you again everyone - you've all been helpful :) Cheers, Xaverian P.S. Happy belated birthday CP :)
What we need is a patch for human stupidity - no really, I could use it!
It's a sad day, when pupils consider school "the system", rather than an easy opportunity for learning.
Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Developers, Velopers, Develprs, Developers!
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
Linkify!|Fold With Us! -
Xaverian wrote:
am I really going to use in the real world?
It depends. Most of what I do involves the basic four functions of arithmetic. However, I've worked on projects where the program has had to calculate thermal loss, signal gain, etc., and that was a lot more complicated. So much in fact that we hired a mathematician for that. On the other hand, I've seen math PhD's make mountains out of molehills. It was amusing to take a multispectral analysis algorithm created by the PhD's that took minutes to analyze the data and convert it into a lookup table that showed the customer exactly what they wanted to see in realtime. So, it depends. :) What I'd suggest is that you find a school/dept/prof that will let you test out of those classes, until you can't figure out the material without taking the classes. It's such a waste of time taking classes for stuff you know, but then again, they want their money. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
It was amusing to take a multispectral analysis algorithm created by the PhD's that took minutes to analyze the data and convert it into a lookup table that showed the customer exactly what they wanted to see in realtime.
Been there, done that. I worked on a 'government project' (cough, cough) once that performed "CMYK to RGB image transformation using a color gamut table" via interpolation. The original algorithm was from a kid's master's thesis. Implemented in software by the principal scientist, the algorithm took hours to perform the transformation. The customer had three hardware engineers working to design a board to implement the transformation. I spent two weeks with the algorithm, chucked the original software, and implemented my own. By the time I was done, my software solution could perform the transformation in less than 12 seconds. The algorithm reduced to a fairly small number of simple calculations based on values from lookup tables calculated at the very beginning. The hardware engineers ended up dumping their design and using my code as a model for their hardware.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Xaverian wrote:
Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice?
Maybe. As Chris said, it's more about teaching you new ways of thinking than anything. I remember hardly anything specific about most of the maths i studied ten years or so ago, but the discipline required to analyze a problem, find a solution, prove that solution... that stuff sticks with you. And trust me, it shows in your work. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from learning by rule and by rote, in which case it'll do you very little good and waste a lot of time. You get out what you put in... ;)
Shog9 wrote:
there's nothing stopping you from learning by rule and by rote
I worked with an engineer who did that. He didn't understand anything he did as far as his code went. He simply had a couple hundred code snippets in his head that 'did things'. He would then cut/copy/paste them together. You could never get him to explain why his code behaved in a certain way. He was fired some time ago; within a year, every piece of code he'd ever written had been replaced.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Matt Gerrans wrote:
That's what I thought too, but this recent article[^] is making me question that attitude...
What's surprising? That taking tests helps people learn to take tests? There's no secret to that; tutors for kids on spelling bee or other competitive recall events have known it for years. Force frequent recall, and recall will become faster and more accurate. The trouble is, memorizing the multiplication tables only makes you faster at multiplying numbers in those tables. It's useful enough, but it's usefulness is quite limited - until you understand what it means, you won't realize that many numbers not in your table can also be easily multiplied by factorization and lookup. Much less how to divide by multiplying, properly estimate, etc... Memorization may make you an excellent candidate on "Jeopardy!", but won't teach you to think.
---- I just want you to be happy; That's my only little wish...
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So as I sit looking through various different college catalogs, viewing the requirements for different Computer Science degrees, I can't help but stop and wonder ... How much of this Calc I, II, III, and IV am I really going to use in the real world? Wouldn't basic Algebra suffice? I just finished my Associates degree (emphasis: programmer/analyst), and now I am continuing on to receive my Bachelors (emphasis: Internet Web Application Development), and God willing then my Masters (emphasis: software engineering) Comments, thoughts, help, anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Ferris Bueller?
What we need is a patch for human stupidity
You will use it. You might not use it directly but understanding the concepts involved may come up more than you think. Particularly if you work with statistical applications, demographics, marketing, etc... Obviously if you want to do physics on a computer you need some understanding of this math. It's vital for games programmers and animators. I don't use much Calc 3 level stuff, but I use the Linear Algebra, Calc 1&2, Real Algebra, Geometry, etc. I am a weekend mechanic also, dealing with performance tuning and handling on little sports cars. Calculus comes in handy sometimes there too - not the actual doing of it, but the understanding of it. Many principles of engines are rooted in some pretty complex physics, and as you know, calculus was invented for the purpose of making physics calculations. I used a whole page of calc last week to prove to someone that it was 'possible' to move a car from 0-60 in 3 seconds without having ridiculous power levels. (About 800hp required in an ideal universe, for a 1000kg car, well within the capabilities of the engine we were talking about) Good programmers will have a strong math background. They might not use it explicitly but I hope they know it intuitively.
"Quality Software since 1983!" http://www.smoothjazzy.com/
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Thank you everyone for your thoughts/comments/suggestions, your replies have given me a little more insight towards what I should do in order to achieve the goals I aspire to reach. I have found that I can circumvent the system without having to take a lot of math in order to finish out my schooling. However, and I should say, that it isn't without any math, just not 4 quarters of Calculus. I may just for grins take a Calculus class, but not two. Thank you again everyone - you've all been helpful :) Cheers, Xaverian P.S. Happy belated birthday CP :)
What we need is a patch for human stupidity - no really, I could use it!
No, take both. And make sure you take physics too, which builds on the calculus, gives you applications for it, and thus, solidifies it in your mind. Seriously... one of these days you may be working for me, and I'll say "what's the derivative of that?" and if you go "huh?" you're going to be one step closer to your next job.
"Quality Software since 1983!" http://www.smoothjazzy.com/