ok what are the rules
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Because we've done it both ways and prefer Plain English without objects.
Take this line...
Print "Hello" to the console.
You do realize that console is in fact an object don't you? Whether or not you use procedural code or OOP methods to describe it doesn't make a difference.
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The Grand Negus wrote: Because we've done it both ways and prefer Plain English without objects. Take this line... Print "Hello" to the console. You do realize that console is in fact an object don't you? Whether or not you use procedural code or OOP methods to describe it doesn't make a difference.
What matters is whether or not the "print" function is inside and therefore an integral part of the console object, or outside and more or less independent of it. The object approach says, "inside"; we say, "outside".
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The Grand Negus wrote: Because we've done it both ways and prefer Plain English without objects. Take this line... Print "Hello" to the console. You do realize that console is in fact an object don't you? Whether or not you use procedural code or OOP methods to describe it doesn't make a difference.
What matters is whether or not the "print" function is inside and therefore an integral part of the console object, or outside and more or less independent of it. The object approach says, "inside"; we say, "outside".
The Grand Negus wrote:
The object approach says, "inside"; we say, "outside".
As said already this works with either A: small teams or B: uber top-notch programmers (not people that think they are). And, as sure as the sun rises, the more programmers you throw into the mix the more retards you're going to get. Btw, two PEP programmers using the same computer is a very small team.
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Primarily because what we're offering is not in direct competition with existing languages. It's the "programming language of the future" and will eventually include most of the other languages for use where they are the appropriate.
Um, so what are you saying? It isn't good for solving these kinds of problems? I don't have any confusion if what you are promoting is a human-computer interface of the future (a la Star Trek), but you seem to have promoted this thing as the Superior Solution to All Problems (TM) of the present in many other posts. Maybe you need to more clearly define exactly what it is you are advertising in The Lounge. By the way, you said in another post that you are a millionaire; if that is the case, I really don't understand why you don't go ahead and pay for your advertising. You would be buying yourself some good will in addition.
Matt Gerrans
Matt Gerrans wrote:
Um, so what are you saying? It isn't good for solving these kinds of problems?
We're saying it's good for solving all kinds of problems, from text editors to compilers, from file managers to page layout programs. But it is not the best choice for everything, obviously - nothing fits that bill.
Matt Gerrans wrote:
I don't have any confusion if what you are promoting is a human-computer interface of the future (a la Star Trek), but you seem to have promoted this thing as the Superior Solution to All Problems (TM) of the present in many other posts. Maybe you need to more clearly define exactly what it is you are advertising in The Lounge.
Well, try this for further information: [^]. I think it's in the Soapbox, but they're pretty much the same to me.
Matt Gerrans wrote:
By the way, you said in another post that you are a millionaire; if that is the case, I really don't understand why you don't go ahead and pay for your advertising. You would be buying yourself some good will in addition.
We did, at the start, buy ads here. Lots of 'em. But they didn't translate into sales, so we stopped buying. We also published several articles here, but the powers that be deleted them on grounds that we were never quite able to determine. Besides, I'm not a "millionaire" any more - if by that term you mean someone with at least a million dollars in assets. I've made millions over the years, to be sure - and spent most of it, primarily on research of various sorts. I've still got enough so I don't have to "work" in the conventional sense, but it's not enough to throw away on ads that aren't paying for themselves.
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The Grand Negus wrote:
The object approach says, "inside"; we say, "outside".
As said already this works with either A: small teams or B: uber top-notch programmers (not people that think they are). And, as sure as the sun rises, the more programmers you throw into the mix the more retards you're going to get. Btw, two PEP programmers using the same computer is a very small team.
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
The Grand Negus wrote: The object approach says, "inside"; we say, "outside". As said already this works with either A: small teams or B: uber top-notch programmers (not people that think they are). And, as sure as the sun rises, the more programmers you throw into the mix the more retards you're going to get. Btw, two PEP programmers using the same computer is a very small team.
I'm saying that the "print" function doesn't belong inside the console object. Period. Why? Because consoles don't print strings - strings are printed on consoles. The size of the team has nothing to do with this.
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You are not alone.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
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Buy a copy of Steve McConnell's Code Complete for the office. Depending on what languages you're using look up the recommended style and/or practices guides on the web. E.g., for .NET this would be MS's Design Guidelines for Class Library Developers in the MSDN library. Though I don't think this has been updated for .NET 2.
Kevin
I am still waiting for my copy from Amazon :^)
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BTW I like all of his points except the last one. For a moment I thought that he was reformed.
Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it. -Brian Kernighan
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
For a moment I thought that he was reformed
Well I only count one "Plain English", and it only constitutes one point amongst a dozen other points. Not sure how you define reformed but that's pretty close in my book.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
~ Web SQL Utility - asp.net app to query Access, SQL server, MySQL. Stores history, favourites.
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there were few discussions about rules for programming few days ago i am working in a company which is newly started and only two programmers there and no one to guide except CP so what are the rules which you follow and think i should also follow :):)
Well the fact that you have started a thread with a massive number of replies, shows there is no simple answer. But there is only one Golden Rule you should follow when it comes to programming: DO NOT, under any circumstances, write ANYTHING in Visual Basic! (I just can't believe no one else has stated this already! :)) BTW, you might even have started the longest Lounge thread this year? Partly because you gave an opportunity for the words 'plain english' to appear :doh: :laugh:
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
~ Web SQL Utility - asp.net app to query Access, SQL server, MySQL. Stores history, favourites.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Who said anything about being a hypocrite?
The message all these are hanging under.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
It's still exploiting the lounge however.
I quote: "The Lounge is a place where you can discuss anything that takes your fancy. If you just want to laze about and discuss things that don't quite fit elsewhere, then this is the place." And this right is granted to all members, and the only thing required to join is a name and a string of characters that will pass for an email address. So here we are. Besides, what harm are we doing? In fact, I would argue that our posts engender more interesting and more meaningful discussions, on the whole, than many of the "non-exploiting" posters here. Chris should pay us to post just to liven up the place!
"Eppur si muove" - ? :)
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Amar Chaudhary wrote:
so what are the rules which you follow and think i should also follow
Sorry, forgot one - a very important one: Abandon the "object oriented" way of thinking and write the thing, as much as possible (with the language you've chosen), as traditional procedural code. Keep your nouns (data definitions) and your verbs (operations on those nouns) separate.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Abandon the "object oriented" way of thinking and write the thing, as much as possible (with the language you've chosen), as traditional procedural code. Keep your nouns (data definitions) and your verbs (operations on those nouns) separate.
Now I finally understand you. You are not a troll, you are totally incapable of understanding and "getting a clue" because you have lost complete touch with reality. This finally makes sense. The good news is, they do have medication for schizophrenia now. The bad news is, you probably will not, therefore HAL will keep talking you into visiting us and preaching your nonsense.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Abandon the "object oriented" way of thinking and write the thing, as much as possible (with the language you've chosen), as traditional procedural code. Keep your nouns (data definitions) and your verbs (operations on those nouns) separate.
Now I finally understand you. You are not a troll, you are totally incapable of understanding and "getting a clue" because you have lost complete touch with reality. This finally makes sense. The good news is, they do have medication for schizophrenia now. The bad news is, you probably will not, therefore HAL will keep talking you into visiting us and preaching your nonsense.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
You are not a troll, you are totally incapable of understanding and "getting a clue" because you have lost complete touch with reality
:laugh: Good one :-D
Some people have a memory and an attention span, you should try them out one day. - Jeremy Falcon
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Jasmine2501 wrote:
I would be willing to bet that most Plain English parsing engines are written in some kind of OOP language.
But ours isn't written that way. And we prefered not to write it that way - though we could have. And we believe that the ease with which we produced it, and the efficiency with which it runs, testifies to the fact that we made the right decision.
Jasmine2501 wrote:
Someone with your experience should know that, at some point, you have to bridge the gap between the user and the chips in the machine.
Of course. And we did bridge that gap - we wrote a Plain English compiler, in Plain English, that generates native Intel machine code.
Jasmine2501 wrote:
OOP languages that compile down to real code are the best option we have right now.
We don't think so. We prefer to program in Plain English. Without objects. And we do.
Jasmine2501 wrote:
I don't understand why you're so reluctant to admit that.
Because we've done it both ways and prefer Plain English without objects.
Jasmine2501 wrote:
Sounds like you're stuck in the past.
The past? We're not the ones using a derivative of a language and syntax from the 1960's! We're using our own native tongue - English - to write programs.
Jasmine2501 wrote:
I read your definition of how Plain English works, and you described it in an object-oriented manner... ears, brain, calculator... I hate to burst your bubble but those are objects.
Objects in the sense of "nouns", yes. But objects in the sense that they "do things" on their own, in the sense that they have their "methods" inside them, no. Our ears don't hear; they are used by us to hear with. Our brains don't think; they are used by us to think with. Our calculators don't calculate; they are used by us to calculate with. This is the fundamental issue we have with objects - they way they bind verbs underneath the nouns. This, we believe, is fundamentally wrong - a bad paradigm. All the other flaws of the object approach stem from this error.
The Grand Negus wrote:
The past? We're not the ones using a derivative of a language and syntax from the 1960's! We're using our own native tongue - English - to write programs.
So you are worried we're using a derivative of a 1960's language, continously improved using lessoned learned over the last 40 years, and you are using the random brain firings of a language from 5000 or more BC that doesn't even write well!??!! Wow, what a "bear" of a project to "bare" to us here. Pity you can't "pare" your ego down, or at least "pair" it up with a bit of logic instead of nonsense...
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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PaulC1972 wrote:
I thought that when the Osmosian guys posted those articles some months ago. Couldn't make any sense of the coding and it looked like something I would have gotten agitated over.
Yeah, they keep on saying PEP is more natural and you can type more code despite it being verbose because it flows so to speak. Personally, I don't think they spent enough time coding in another language that's not verbose to get that same flow. And having to use the shift key is not a show stopper for me. :rolleyes: Really though, if syntax was the only issue in debate (which it's not). I still wouldn't be crazy about it.
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
And having to use the shift key is not a show stopper for me.
Which just goes to show you that you have never drunk all your brain cells away. :)
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Really though, if syntax was the only issue in debate (which it's not). I still wouldn't be crazy about it.
That has always been what I have said. We need something to gain from a language. At least C# has some benefits to the programmer beyond just a "new" (or in the case of PEP: incredibly ancient) syntax. In fact, there is so much you have to give up to program in PEP that half of the software written today wouldn't be possible to write in PEP. No games, no simulations, no scientific visualization, no concurrent massive parallel problem solving.... He may want "HAL 9000", but he is pushing a Hal 9000BC!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Buy a copy of Steve McConnell's Code Complete for the office. Depending on what languages you're using look up the recommended style and/or practices guides on the web. E.g., for .NET this would be MS's Design Guidelines for Class Library Developers in the MSDN library. Though I don't think this has been updated for .NET 2.
Kevin
Yes, read McConnell, both as a survival guide for how to deal with hopelessly Microsoft-centric development shops and as a reminder of what not to do in more enlightened organisations. Remember that there are no silver bullets; if someone hands you one, scrape it a little bit; you'll find plutonium underneath. Bearing that in mind, what I've seen work boils down to: Use a lightweight process that encourages and rewards user/stakeholder participation throughout the process. Change happens; plan for it. Have "heavier" processes like RUP in your capability matrix, but don't default to them; you don't need to write documentation the size of the Encyclopedia Brittanica to code an address book. At the same time, borrow a credo from the medical profession: If you don't write it down, it never happened. Don't mindlessly repeat what the code says; your ideal should be a concise, complete pixel trail that would accomplish two related but divergent missions: a) allowing a comparably competent developer to recreate your system at least as well as you did, and b) to allow the other stakeholders (customers, management) to understand where you are, what you're doing, why, and what further conflicts and resource needs (time, money, etc.) separate the team from total success. Don't tie your "crown jewels" of design and other IP away in proprietary lockboxes. Use tools based on open standards (Web+database=wikis and blogs, for instance) that will survive anything time, entropy and failing memories can throw at them. Even if you're developing for a single, proprietary, system, always develop as much as possible to be portable across everything - and test that completely. No matter what your deployment system, portability requirements, etc.... clean interface design and separation of purposes, religiously applied, will save your neck far more often than you believe it will break it. Any piece of code should have only one reason to change. Audit your code, both individually and collectively. Anything that hasn'tAnything that hasn't been proven to work in all respects is assumed to fail under any and all circumstances. Any code that can't be tested should be removed, and the cascade of defective planning/design that spawned it in the first place should be identified, examined, and torn out by the roots. I led a small team charged with implementing a critical component (about 1,700 C++ classes) for a large, very well-known American softw
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
it is excessively dogmatic
I do agree with you on that front. While I think it's a good book, I do think it should serve as a guide more so than a religion.
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I do think it should serve as a guide more so than a religion.
egad, I hope everyone believes the same! Good programming is adaptive, which makes the whole universe a guide.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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The Grand Negus wrote:
The past? We're not the ones using a derivative of a language and syntax from the 1960's! We're using our own native tongue - English - to write programs.
So you are worried we're using a derivative of a 1960's language, continously improved using lessoned learned over the last 40 years, and you are using the random brain firings of a language from 5000 or more BC that doesn't even write well!??!! Wow, what a "bear" of a project to "bare" to us here. Pity you can't "pare" your ego down, or at least "pair" it up with a bit of logic instead of nonsense...
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I was only saying stuck in the past because you are espousing procedural approaches over object approaches. I'm ready to download this Plain English thing... send us the link.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for (freeware) JazzySiteMaps, a simple application to generate .Net and Google-style sitemaps! -
I was only saying stuck in the past because you are espousing procedural approaches over object approaches. I'm ready to download this Plain English thing... send us the link.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for (freeware) JazzySiteMaps, a simple application to generate .Net and Google-style sitemaps!Jasmine2501 wrote:
I'm ready to download this Plain English thing... send us the link.
It's in his every post. Good luck, be preprared to give up floating point math as well as objects, you don't need advanced graphics, and you will be limited to only those "parts" of programming that "He" deems not beneath Himself to write into His own compiler. He is "perfect" and He is "always right" and any idea you have will be beneath Him, because you are meaningless to Him, even as a customer. Good luck!
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Okay. Send me a version in some other language that you think is good - and hopefully short - and we'll get you the Plain English equivalent.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Okay. Send me a version in some other language that you think is good - and hopefully short - and we'll get you the Plain English equivalent.
http://www.azillionmonkeys.com/qed/hash.html[^] and time the result. A hash table is one of the simplest concepts in computer programming and has been translated to every language imaginable because it is extremely useful. Add yours to the list and lets see the results, both in code AND in implimentation speed. After all final implimentation is not just readability, but USE! If it isn't practical in application of use, then it is just playground theory.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I was only saying stuck in the past because you are espousing procedural approaches over object approaches. I'm ready to download this Plain English thing... send us the link.
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for (freeware) JazzySiteMaps, a simple application to generate .Net and Google-style sitemaps!Jasmine2501 wrote:
I'm ready to download this Plain English thing... send us the link.
You have to write to us directly to get the link. We don't publish the link because the product is not free. Others - some merely curious - have paid for it, and, I might note, none have asked for a refund (ie, they thought it worth the hundred bucks, either as a tool, or as something educational, inspiring, or just plain entertaining). Evaluation copies, however, are available to those who are more than simply curious - developers who wish to build something on top of it; educators who want to use it as a teaching tool; and other individuals who will take the time (about half a day) to thoroughly digest what we're actually saying and provide us with a review (public or private). If you think you fit into one of those categories, write: help@osmosian.com.
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Okay. Send me a version in some other language that you think is good - and hopefully short - and we'll get you the Plain English equivalent.
http://www.azillionmonkeys.com/qed/hash.html[^] and time the result. A hash table is one of the simplest concepts in computer programming and has been translated to every language imaginable because it is extremely useful. Add yours to the list and lets see the results, both in code AND in implimentation speed. After all final implimentation is not just readability, but USE! If it isn't practical in application of use, then it is just playground theory.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
A hash table is one of the simplest concepts in computer programming and has been translated to every language imaginable because it is extremely useful. Add yours to the list and lets see the results, both in code AND in implimentation speed. After all final implimentation is not just readability, but USE! If it isn't practical in application of use, then it is just playground theory.
Our compiler uses a variety of hash tables; they are efficient enough to enable us to process our source code at about 12,000 lines per second. I think that makes them "practical in application use" and not just "playground theory". How that compares with other people's hash tables, we simply don't care. We've got 'em, and they work for us.