Experience with RentACoder.com ???
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Ed Dixon wrote:
either positive or negative
let's see... the milder response before Christian finds this.... what positive or negative can be said about "lowest bid" work? We're not talking about lowest bid for quality, we're talking lowest bid, period. If you have dent in your car there are two ways to fix it, the slow meticulous and delicate way of trying to pop it out with either suction cups or removing the panel and pushing it in place, or drilling a hole popping a hook in, pulling it out, filling the hole and handing it back to you. The latter one is real cheap, can be done for about $25, and definately "repairs the dent" just adds extra issues. So too rentacoder, cheap quality lacking code offers keeps the costs to the "requestor" down, but so too the quality of the result. Also, similar to our contract here, there is no standard for grading the result, so even if you do quality work, you may get downgraded for any reason. We stopped doing work with one customer on our contract because he didn't believe anyone deserved more than a 75% grade. Now if you do absolutely perfect work, and can at most receive 75%, why bother? So outside of being good for the college student with no experience, and nothing to loose, it is near useless for both customers and experienced programmers.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
We're not talking about lowest bid for quality, we're talking lowest bid, period.
Hey, if it works for our government, it should work for coding too, right? ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Rentacoder has it's issues as a site, for sure. I started using it 7 months ago as my employer quit paying me, and made $1000 in 1 week coding like a madman. The way I did it was to constantly monitor the site and be one of the first bidders on any project I could do. That gave me tons of bids won (even over bottom dollar bidders from other countries and colleges). It was a nice little bit of income when I needed it.....but here is the catch, you had better plan on working your @ss off for next to nothing if you calculate it hourly because almost every project on that site is misrepresented and you will have to underbid to get it. That means a crapload of work in order to get paid. Why am I such a fan if I got burned so bad on time? Because I got 2 recurring clients that continued to use me outside of the site, and at a industry standard rate. THAT is the real key to rentacoder, DO NOT try to make money on the site as it's a waste of time, try to find a decent company posting up for a bid and make a very good impression and you will almost certainly get future work. For me, I don't do anything on there anymore because I am so busy with this other client that I have to continually turn down work requests from them as there is just not enough time in the day to do what they need. Sorry for the long post, but this question deserved some insight and clarification on rentacoder.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
amclint wrote:
Because I got 2 recurring clients that continued to use me outside of the site, and at a industry standard rate.
Which is why write articles instead of prostituting myself on RAC. ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
amclint wrote:
Because I got 2 recurring clients that continued to use me outside of the site, and at a industry standard rate.
Which is why write articles instead of prostituting myself on RAC. ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithAt the time it was out of necessity...my wife would divorce me if I worked all that time for the lame prices most of those projects go for. So you write articles and get people requesting you do work, just from them seeing the articles? Very interesting if that is the case...maybe I'll start something similar ;)
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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Rentacoder has it's issues as a site, for sure. I started using it 7 months ago as my employer quit paying me, and made $1000 in 1 week coding like a madman. The way I did it was to constantly monitor the site and be one of the first bidders on any project I could do. That gave me tons of bids won (even over bottom dollar bidders from other countries and colleges). It was a nice little bit of income when I needed it.....but here is the catch, you had better plan on working your @ss off for next to nothing if you calculate it hourly because almost every project on that site is misrepresented and you will have to underbid to get it. That means a crapload of work in order to get paid. Why am I such a fan if I got burned so bad on time? Because I got 2 recurring clients that continued to use me outside of the site, and at a industry standard rate. THAT is the real key to rentacoder, DO NOT try to make money on the site as it's a waste of time, try to find a decent company posting up for a bid and make a very good impression and you will almost certainly get future work. For me, I don't do anything on there anymore because I am so busy with this other client that I have to continually turn down work requests from them as there is just not enough time in the day to do what they need. Sorry for the long post, but this question deserved some insight and clarification on rentacoder.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
amclint wrote:
Sorry for the long post, but this question deserved some insight and clarification on rentacode
Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading it. My own experience... I've done a few jobs through RentACoder, receiving a perfect 10 rating each time. That's put me in the top 5000 programmers and given me a "Top Coder" status. Some of the jobs I've taken have been interesting. One was writing audio processing code that enables a robot to determine which direction the sound it's "hearing" is coming from. Another was for a small synthesizer in C#, a sort of proof of concept (which the buyer has graciously given me permission to share the code here. I hope to finish a synth toolkit based on this project in C# and write some Code Project articles...) Those jobs have kind of been the exception to the rule. Several of the other jobs I've done paid very little. I took them on because I thought it would be nice to get some good ratings under my belt and then move on. I've got the good ratings now but have not been able to parlay those into higher paying RentACoder jobs. I think it's because those jobs don't exist. Each time I drop by and look at the latest jobs, I see tons of junk. Then there is that occasional job that looks interesting but there is one requirement that takes it to a whole other level of difficulty, and the max bid limit doesn't reflect that, or they literally want it for next to nothing. One thing I noticed is that a lot of these jobs do not come to fruition. In other words, either the buyer cancels because they don't get the bids they want, or the job gets cancelled automatically because the buyer has apparently forgotten they put up the job in the first place. Your advice for using RentACoder as a means of developing a client base is good. Hasn't happened to me yet, but I will try to take that approach.
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Any have experiences with www.rentacoder.com either positive or negative? Ed
Ed, You didn't say what types of experiences you were looking for...as a buyer or as a coder, and from what country. Here is my feedback (from the point of view of Rent a Coder itself): 1) As a buyer: 13,000+ projects were started and completed last month: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/About/ThePulseOfRentACoder.asp There's also a 93% return rate for buyers. None of this would be happening if it didn't work well for buyers. 2) For a coder: 2a) From a non U.S. country: A $100 job is a month's salary in many places of the world. Two of the top 3 countries for coders on the site (India and Romania) fall into this category. (see the above link). I have numerous emails from people in this category who not only have quit their jobs becuase of the steady work they receive from RAC, but also started their own companies. An easy way to find them is to browse the top coder list, and you can see this from their profiles. 2b) From the U.S (which is where some the people on this thread seem to be coming from): The competition from people in 2a) can be difficult. However, the U.S. is always in the top 3 countries on the site. As an example, the #1 coder on the site right now is from the U.S.: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/AllCoderCompleteList.asp[^] Click on his profile and look at him (Tometa Software). This isn't a "college student" as someone else on this board stated he would be. And this isn't a person just looking to do a one time job on Rent a Coder and take him offsite...as someone else said is "typical" (look at his repeat business and again..remember the 93% repeat business rate). Instead, this is a developer who is also a business man...which is the "new breed" of American coder we are seeing on the site. He uses outsourcing to his advantage. He takes in projects from clients, does some of the work himself, and outsources the excess that he doesn't have the time to complete, or that he can do cheaper elsewhere. Then he pockets the difference. This way he can do more projects than he ever could do on his own, and make more money. Can a U.S. coder still find success on RAC being just a "head's down coder"? As others posted, it can be difficu
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amclint wrote:
Because I got 2 recurring clients that continued to use me outside of the site, and at a industry standard rate.
Which is why write articles instead of prostituting myself on RAC. ;P Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithMarc Clifton wrote:
Which is why write articles instead of prostituting myself on RAC.
I've not shared this experience. I have 16 articles here with an overall rating of 4.5. I've only gotten one small job out of it a couple of years ago. If writing Code Project articles can be a means of attracting clients, then I think my problem is that I've let my own personal pet interests dictate what I write about. And those interests just don't have a client base out there to attract. Maybe time to start expanding my skillset. Of course, I didn't start writing articles for this reason to begin with. I wanted to share my knowledge, and there was the coolness factor of having a good article up on Code Project. Having said that it would be nice to get an occasional email from someone saying, "Hey, saw your work on Code Project. I've got a job for you if you're interested." Instead, what I usually get are emails saying, "I'm writing a commercial application and would like to use your project as part of it. Do I have to pay you royalties??"
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amclint wrote:
Sorry for the long post, but this question deserved some insight and clarification on rentacode
Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading it. My own experience... I've done a few jobs through RentACoder, receiving a perfect 10 rating each time. That's put me in the top 5000 programmers and given me a "Top Coder" status. Some of the jobs I've taken have been interesting. One was writing audio processing code that enables a robot to determine which direction the sound it's "hearing" is coming from. Another was for a small synthesizer in C#, a sort of proof of concept (which the buyer has graciously given me permission to share the code here. I hope to finish a synth toolkit based on this project in C# and write some Code Project articles...) Those jobs have kind of been the exception to the rule. Several of the other jobs I've done paid very little. I took them on because I thought it would be nice to get some good ratings under my belt and then move on. I've got the good ratings now but have not been able to parlay those into higher paying RentACoder jobs. I think it's because those jobs don't exist. Each time I drop by and look at the latest jobs, I see tons of junk. Then there is that occasional job that looks interesting but there is one requirement that takes it to a whole other level of difficulty, and the max bid limit doesn't reflect that, or they literally want it for next to nothing. One thing I noticed is that a lot of these jobs do not come to fruition. In other words, either the buyer cancels because they don't get the bids they want, or the job gets cancelled automatically because the buyer has apparently forgotten they put up the job in the first place. Your advice for using RentACoder as a means of developing a client base is good. Hasn't happened to me yet, but I will try to take that approach.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
Each time I drop by and look at the latest jobs, I see tons of junk.
Just for the hell of it, I popped in there the other day and found two homework assignements among the list of projects to be bid on. :~
Jon Sagara When I grow up, I'm changing my name to Joe Kickass! My Blog | My Site | My Articles
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At the time it was out of necessity...my wife would divorce me if I worked all that time for the lame prices most of those projects go for. So you write articles and get people requesting you do work, just from them seeing the articles? Very interesting if that is the case...maybe I'll start something similar ;)
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
amclint wrote:
So you write articles and get people requesting you do work, just from them seeing the articles?
Yes. I've had several small contracts and two large ones, one that lasted a year, the other that has lasted 2 years so far, though my involvement in the work has petered down to 0 now. I also have a collection of contacts in case I need to look for work, which I much prefer as a first approach. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Ed, You didn't say what types of experiences you were looking for...as a buyer or as a coder, and from what country. Here is my feedback (from the point of view of Rent a Coder itself): 1) As a buyer: 13,000+ projects were started and completed last month: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/About/ThePulseOfRentACoder.asp There's also a 93% return rate for buyers. None of this would be happening if it didn't work well for buyers. 2) For a coder: 2a) From a non U.S. country: A $100 job is a month's salary in many places of the world. Two of the top 3 countries for coders on the site (India and Romania) fall into this category. (see the above link). I have numerous emails from people in this category who not only have quit their jobs becuase of the steady work they receive from RAC, but also started their own companies. An easy way to find them is to browse the top coder list, and you can see this from their profiles. 2b) From the U.S (which is where some the people on this thread seem to be coming from): The competition from people in 2a) can be difficult. However, the U.S. is always in the top 3 countries on the site. As an example, the #1 coder on the site right now is from the U.S.: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/AllCoderCompleteList.asp[^] Click on his profile and look at him (Tometa Software). This isn't a "college student" as someone else on this board stated he would be. And this isn't a person just looking to do a one time job on Rent a Coder and take him offsite...as someone else said is "typical" (look at his repeat business and again..remember the 93% repeat business rate). Instead, this is a developer who is also a business man...which is the "new breed" of American coder we are seeing on the site. He uses outsourcing to his advantage. He takes in projects from clients, does some of the work himself, and outsources the excess that he doesn't have the time to complete, or that he can do cheaper elsewhere. Then he pockets the difference. This way he can do more projects than he ever could do on his own, and make more money. Can a U.S. coder still find success on RAC being just a "head's down coder"? As others posted, it can be difficu
My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true: 1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. 2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. 3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. 4. Competition with non-US folks makes it hard for experienced US folks to really profit from RAC results. 5. Many buyers post jobs having no clue as to whether they are hard or even possible. It’s clear there is real work on RAC, but separating the wheat from the chaff seems to be a tricky task. Ed
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Leslie Sanford wrote:
Each time I drop by and look at the latest jobs, I see tons of junk.
Just for the hell of it, I popped in there the other day and found two homework assignements among the list of projects to be bid on. :~
Jon Sagara When I grow up, I'm changing my name to Joe Kickass! My Blog | My Site | My Articles
Only two? :-D
Software Zen:
delete this; -
Marc Clifton wrote:
Which is why write articles instead of prostituting myself on RAC.
I've not shared this experience. I have 16 articles here with an overall rating of 4.5. I've only gotten one small job out of it a couple of years ago. If writing Code Project articles can be a means of attracting clients, then I think my problem is that I've let my own personal pet interests dictate what I write about. And those interests just don't have a client base out there to attract. Maybe time to start expanding my skillset. Of course, I didn't start writing articles for this reason to begin with. I wanted to share my knowledge, and there was the coolness factor of having a good article up on Code Project. Having said that it would be nice to get an occasional email from someone saying, "Hey, saw your work on Code Project. I've got a job for you if you're interested." Instead, what I usually get are emails saying, "I'm writing a commercial application and would like to use your project as part of it. Do I have to pay you royalties??"
Leslie Sanford wrote:
then I think my problem is that I've let my own personal pet interests dictate what I write about.
That might be. When I think about it, just about every contact I've received has been regarding XML, the MyXaml project, or something having to do with XML-based web pages.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
I didn't start writing articles for this reason to begin with. I wanted to share my knowledge, and there was the coolness factor of having a good article up on Code Project.
Absolutely, and I still keep writing articles for that reason, not for the work possiblity.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
"I'm writing a commercial application and would like to use your project as part of it. Do I have to pay you royalties??"
I get a lot of those too. I figure, it's nice of them to ask. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
Any have experiences with www.rentacoder.com either positive or negative? Ed
If you pay for a quick hack, you get exactly that...an application with little potential for growth without some serious headaches... I guess it depends on your project size, expected longevity, etc... The guys who bid (I was one of them) are looking to make fast money and cut corners wherever they can...in web applications in serious problem as security takes on a whole different ball game (XSS, SQL Injection, etc). For quick and dirty projects I would possibly use those rent-a-coder.com type sites, but for anything serious...it simply doesn't justify. Perhaps if your acting as a senior developer and already have architectural specs hammered out, setup and simply need man power to fill in implementation details maybe then it might make sense. Those sites will quickly make you realize the world if full of developers (saturated some might say) but it's obvious there are far more bad programmers than there are good developers... Personally, if I was a businessman or in a position of power to make a hiring decision...I'd be looking to attract the best of the best from places like CP, SitePoint, etc... But I've always been of the mindset that quality does count...so I guess it depends on your perspective. Cheers :)
It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
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amclint wrote:
Sorry for the long post, but this question deserved some insight and clarification on rentacode
Thanks for your post, I enjoyed reading it. My own experience... I've done a few jobs through RentACoder, receiving a perfect 10 rating each time. That's put me in the top 5000 programmers and given me a "Top Coder" status. Some of the jobs I've taken have been interesting. One was writing audio processing code that enables a robot to determine which direction the sound it's "hearing" is coming from. Another was for a small synthesizer in C#, a sort of proof of concept (which the buyer has graciously given me permission to share the code here. I hope to finish a synth toolkit based on this project in C# and write some Code Project articles...) Those jobs have kind of been the exception to the rule. Several of the other jobs I've done paid very little. I took them on because I thought it would be nice to get some good ratings under my belt and then move on. I've got the good ratings now but have not been able to parlay those into higher paying RentACoder jobs. I think it's because those jobs don't exist. Each time I drop by and look at the latest jobs, I see tons of junk. Then there is that occasional job that looks interesting but there is one requirement that takes it to a whole other level of difficulty, and the max bid limit doesn't reflect that, or they literally want it for next to nothing. One thing I noticed is that a lot of these jobs do not come to fruition. In other words, either the buyer cancels because they don't get the bids they want, or the job gets cancelled automatically because the buyer has apparently forgotten they put up the job in the first place. Your advice for using RentACoder as a means of developing a client base is good. Hasn't happened to me yet, but I will try to take that approach.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
One thing I noticed is that a lot of these jobs do not come to fruition. In other words, either the buyer cancels because they don't get the bids they want, or the job gets cancelled automatically because the buyer has apparently forgotten they put up the job in the first place.
I have seen this a lot, and it is VERY frustrating to go back and forth with a buyer for sometimes a few weeks and then have nothing happen. I hate it because you think you have the job in the bag to be communicating that much, then nothing happens with it. Really though, the trick I've found to work is to be in the first 5-10 bidders and you are likely to get it because the only other bids in that group are auto-bids from people out of the USA (for ridiculously low amounts) and the buyer will generally ignore them because you can tell they are automated. Stupid bids like "I can do this for you, pick me and I guarantee success", instead of my response which is always directed at the project. I always give some specific thing I'm going to do on the project, so they know I read the RFP and thought about it.
if (!interested){return false;} amclint
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Ed, You didn't say what types of experiences you were looking for...as a buyer or as a coder, and from what country. Here is my feedback (from the point of view of Rent a Coder itself): 1) As a buyer: 13,000+ projects were started and completed last month: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/About/ThePulseOfRentACoder.asp There's also a 93% return rate for buyers. None of this would be happening if it didn't work well for buyers. 2) For a coder: 2a) From a non U.S. country: A $100 job is a month's salary in many places of the world. Two of the top 3 countries for coders on the site (India and Romania) fall into this category. (see the above link). I have numerous emails from people in this category who not only have quit their jobs becuase of the steady work they receive from RAC, but also started their own companies. An easy way to find them is to browse the top coder list, and you can see this from their profiles. 2b) From the U.S (which is where some the people on this thread seem to be coming from): The competition from people in 2a) can be difficult. However, the U.S. is always in the top 3 countries on the site. As an example, the #1 coder on the site right now is from the U.S.: http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/AllCoderCompleteList.asp[^] Click on his profile and look at him (Tometa Software). This isn't a "college student" as someone else on this board stated he would be. And this isn't a person just looking to do a one time job on Rent a Coder and take him offsite...as someone else said is "typical" (look at his repeat business and again..remember the 93% repeat business rate). Instead, this is a developer who is also a business man...which is the "new breed" of American coder we are seeing on the site. He uses outsourcing to his advantage. He takes in projects from clients, does some of the work himself, and outsources the excess that he doesn't have the time to complete, or that he can do cheaper elsewhere. Then he pockets the difference. This way he can do more projects than he ever could do on his own, and make more money. Can a U.S. coder still find success on RAC being just a "head's down coder"? As others posted, it can be difficu
Sign Top wrote:
The trick I've seen, is to avoid the projects anyone in the world can do ("create a 12 people website in PHP") and stick with an expensive niche. As just one example, people in category #2a tend to be proficient in open source (because it's free so they can get easy access to the tools)...but tend not to be as proficient in proprietary technologies (Microsoft, Oracle) for example. Many of the .NET jobs don't see many non U.S. coders bidding..although that might change if MSFT's introduction of the free versions ever takes off. But there will always be niches.
This is a good point. And some of the better jobs I've gotten through RentACoder have been based on this approach. My expertise is audio processing and MIDI, so I stay on the look out for those jobs; they usually receive fewer bids, so there is less competition. However, there's a limit to how far this goes. I will give you an example. Currently, there is a job up for a "Virtual turntable scratch effect." As I post this, it hasn't received any bids. This is right up my alley. It's audio processing and involves areas that I've had experience with. The buyer is totally blind, so there will be special considerations for writing the application to make it accessible. This is something I've had a little experience with, at least with .NET. In other words, I'm probably the best bet this person has for getting the job done (through RentACoder). The problem is that the max bid is set at $150. Now this is a lot, at least in terms of RentACoder money, but I know it would take at least one to three weeks of working closely with the client to get it right. It would involve some research into the algorithms necessary to create the effect to the client's satisfaction, etc. Plus, making sure it is accessible to him. I just can't justify it for 150 bucks. Just can't. So I'm gonna pass. I guess my point is that the niche approach can work but you need to know exactly how you want to do the job beforehand so you can just jump right in and get it done. If the job requires some finesse, the money may not be there for you to provide it. At any rate, I see from your signature that you're from RAC? If so, I don't want to sound totally negative here. I'm grateful for the work I've gotten through RAC and will probably continue looking for the occasional off-job. Just speaking my mind here, and I guess I'm reevaluating how I use RAC right now.
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Which is why write articles instead of prostituting myself on RAC.
I've not shared this experience. I have 16 articles here with an overall rating of 4.5. I've only gotten one small job out of it a couple of years ago. If writing Code Project articles can be a means of attracting clients, then I think my problem is that I've let my own personal pet interests dictate what I write about. And those interests just don't have a client base out there to attract. Maybe time to start expanding my skillset. Of course, I didn't start writing articles for this reason to begin with. I wanted to share my knowledge, and there was the coolness factor of having a good article up on Code Project. Having said that it would be nice to get an occasional email from someone saying, "Hey, saw your work on Code Project. I've got a job for you if you're interested." Instead, what I usually get are emails saying, "I'm writing a commercial application and would like to use your project as part of it. Do I have to pay you royalties??"
Leslie Sanford wrote:
I've not shared this experience.
I think part of the reason you haven't shared Marc's experience is that you aren't as visible as he is. I can think of 5 or 6 people I would hire in an instant from here - all based on their visibility in the forums first. I can also think of a bunch who I would never hire, despite some good articles. Again, based on their forum posts. For instance, I recognize your name and vaguely remember a synthesizer article from way back but I don't recall the general nature of your posts and so can't form an opinion of you as a person. I'm sure I come across the same way - people might recognize my name, but I doubt they have enough to form an opinion of me. I think the personal networking aspects of the forums likely contributes more to potential contracts because the forums provide a good understanding of a persons attitude, work-ethic, principles etc. The articles back that up with what the person can do. Cheers, Drew.
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[hides in corner and waits for the 'All Clear' siren.]
____________________________________________________ If at first you don't succeed, skydiving might not be for you.
Wise lady...:-D If my home Internet connection worked, I'd disconnect the antenna for a few days, just to avoid the backlash. Fortunately it won't be reestablished until the 29th, by which time it should be safe to surf again.:rolleyes: [EDIT] Odd how this got connected to Ed's post, rather than the one I answered... Hmmm... [/EDIT]
"...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true: 1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. 2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. 3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. 4. Competition with non-US folks makes it hard for experienced US folks to really profit from RAC results. 5. Many buyers post jobs having no clue as to whether they are hard or even possible. It’s clear there is real work on RAC, but separating the wheat from the chaff seems to be a tricky task. Ed
Ed, >>My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. I see...thanks for c.arifying. >>Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true:1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. What EXACTLY makes you say that most of the jobs are not real? If you think about it, there's not much incentive for a buyer to post something that isn't real. Coders are not allowed to do work in advance of escrowing (being selected)...so the buyers aren't getting work done in advance for free. The cancellation rate of bid requests (where buyers don't select a coder) is about 40%. But it shouldn't be expected that 100% of projects should go through. And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget". #2 is "didn't find a coder with expertise in xyz". There just isn't much incentive to post a job that isn't "real". >>2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. Ed, I'm assuming you are from the U.S.? You need to understand that there are two types of business being done on the site. One is outsourcing overseas. These are going to have low bids (from your point of view...not from the point of view of somone overseas). You aren't going to win these bids, so it doesn't make sense to bid on them. The other is outsourcing onshore (in the U.S.). If you see the study done by American University on Rent a Coder, you'll see that most of the buyers are U.S. and they actually do have a cultural bias and tendency to pick U.S. coders. That's part of the reason why the U.S. always is in the top 3 each month as well. Anyway, what you can do is set your filter to ignore the <$100 projects and this way you won't see the projects those types of projects and focus on the ones that you do have a better chance of winning. One thing to point it...it is a big mistake, to look at an overseas outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that the result must be low quality or low effort work. If $100 is a month's salary in Romania you can be sure that coder is going to put a ton of their best work in for it. What you're seeing is the difference in the cost of living between the U.S. and another country, and assuming that this means there is low quality work being asked for..and being done. That isnt the case. >>3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. Go to "my bid requests" and count the # of homeowork pro
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If you pay for a quick hack, you get exactly that...an application with little potential for growth without some serious headaches... I guess it depends on your project size, expected longevity, etc... The guys who bid (I was one of them) are looking to make fast money and cut corners wherever they can...in web applications in serious problem as security takes on a whole different ball game (XSS, SQL Injection, etc). For quick and dirty projects I would possibly use those rent-a-coder.com type sites, but for anything serious...it simply doesn't justify. Perhaps if your acting as a senior developer and already have architectural specs hammered out, setup and simply need man power to fill in implementation details maybe then it might make sense. Those sites will quickly make you realize the world if full of developers (saturated some might say) but it's obvious there are far more bad programmers than there are good developers... Personally, if I was a businessman or in a position of power to make a hiring decision...I'd be looking to attract the best of the best from places like CP, SitePoint, etc... But I've always been of the mindset that quality does count...so I guess it depends on your perspective. Cheers :)
It's frustrating being a genius and living the life of a moron!!!
Hockey, Check out what I wrote to Ed. It's a mistake to look at an offshore outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that low quality/effort work is being done. You're appplying U.S. standards for measuring the amount of money to a situation that it doesn't apply to. $100 is a month's salary in Romania...and people will bust their tails and do everything for a month's salary. Remember to take into account different costs of living. Ian RAC
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Sign Top wrote:
The trick I've seen, is to avoid the projects anyone in the world can do ("create a 12 people website in PHP") and stick with an expensive niche. As just one example, people in category #2a tend to be proficient in open source (because it's free so they can get easy access to the tools)...but tend not to be as proficient in proprietary technologies (Microsoft, Oracle) for example. Many of the .NET jobs don't see many non U.S. coders bidding..although that might change if MSFT's introduction of the free versions ever takes off. But there will always be niches.
This is a good point. And some of the better jobs I've gotten through RentACoder have been based on this approach. My expertise is audio processing and MIDI, so I stay on the look out for those jobs; they usually receive fewer bids, so there is less competition. However, there's a limit to how far this goes. I will give you an example. Currently, there is a job up for a "Virtual turntable scratch effect." As I post this, it hasn't received any bids. This is right up my alley. It's audio processing and involves areas that I've had experience with. The buyer is totally blind, so there will be special considerations for writing the application to make it accessible. This is something I've had a little experience with, at least with .NET. In other words, I'm probably the best bet this person has for getting the job done (through RentACoder). The problem is that the max bid is set at $150. Now this is a lot, at least in terms of RentACoder money, but I know it would take at least one to three weeks of working closely with the client to get it right. It would involve some research into the algorithms necessary to create the effect to the client's satisfaction, etc. Plus, making sure it is accessible to him. I just can't justify it for 150 bucks. Just can't. So I'm gonna pass. I guess my point is that the niche approach can work but you need to know exactly how you want to do the job beforehand so you can just jump right in and get it done. If the job requires some finesse, the money may not be there for you to provide it. At any rate, I see from your signature that you're from RAC? If so, I don't want to sound totally negative here. I'm grateful for the work I've gotten through RAC and will probably continue looking for the occasional off-job. Just speaking my mind here, and I guess I'm reevaluating how I use RAC right now.
Yes Leslie, I'm from RAC. With that buyer...if you are indeed the best bet for him/her...the good thing is that they will eventually be forced to come to you. That's the beauty of an open market. No one will bid who is qualified...and they will either have to raise the price, or they will pick someone who is not qualified, go into arbitration, and when they get their money back, choose someone who is (we see this alot...arbitration is a very educational experience for some buyers). >>The problem is that the max bid is set at $150. Now this is a lot, at least in terms of RentACoder money, One thing...just so you know $150 is actually the average size of a job at RAC. Remember that this is an average and includes both types of jobs: 1) offshore outsourcing (which is less expensive) 2) onshore oustsouring (which is more expensive) So it is going to be lower than the average job you could expect for an onshore job. I talked about this in another response, and don't want to post it again and take up space unnecessarily. U.S. coders are always in the top 3 countries every month...which may seem suprising...until you think about the fact that some jobs cannot be outsourced (most 3rd world countries have no laws protecting trade secrets) and because the buyers are from the U.S. and they have a cultural bias in choosing business partners toward people in their own culture (a study by American University on RAC explored this). I think the real underlying issue/problem here is the fact that there are two types of work being done on the site, and the problem is that as a U.S. coder you are forced to weed through all the offshore jobs. It's frustrating to you. Am I right about this? If so, maybe we could do something better to allow you to see only jobs that suit you. Ian RAC
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Ed, >>My interest in RAC is from a coders viewpoint. I see...thanks for c.arifying. >>Having spent a few days poking around in RAC, it seems like a few things are basically true:1. Many jobs are not real. Buyers post for different reasons other than actually buying coder service. What EXACTLY makes you say that most of the jobs are not real? If you think about it, there's not much incentive for a buyer to post something that isn't real. Coders are not allowed to do work in advance of escrowing (being selected)...so the buyers aren't getting work done in advance for free. The cancellation rate of bid requests (where buyers don't select a coder) is about 40%. But it shouldn't be expected that 100% of projects should go through. And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget". #2 is "didn't find a coder with expertise in xyz". There just isn't much incentive to post a job that isn't "real". >>2. Most jobs are targeted towards very low bids, that do not encourage quality. Ed, I'm assuming you are from the U.S.? You need to understand that there are two types of business being done on the site. One is outsourcing overseas. These are going to have low bids (from your point of view...not from the point of view of somone overseas). You aren't going to win these bids, so it doesn't make sense to bid on them. The other is outsourcing onshore (in the U.S.). If you see the study done by American University on Rent a Coder, you'll see that most of the buyers are U.S. and they actually do have a cultural bias and tendency to pick U.S. coders. That's part of the reason why the U.S. always is in the top 3 each month as well. Anyway, what you can do is set your filter to ignore the <$100 projects and this way you won't see the projects those types of projects and focus on the ones that you do have a better chance of winning. One thing to point it...it is a big mistake, to look at an overseas outsourcing situation, see a low $ amount and assume that the result must be low quality or low effort work. If $100 is a month's salary in Romania you can be sure that coder is going to put a ton of their best work in for it. What you're seeing is the difference in the cost of living between the U.S. and another country, and assuming that this means there is low quality work being asked for..and being done. That isnt the case. >>3. Many jobs are very small and really do amount to homework for actually buyers. Go to "my bid requests" and count the # of homeowork pro
Sign Top wrote:
And we do polls on the cancellations. The #1 reason is "lost budget".
Is that a euphamism for "I didn't think it would cost that much!"? Rather than having lost a budget, I'm wondering if they ever had it in the first place and were hoping that they could find someone on RAC that would be willing for very little money. From the posts I've seen about RAC in various forums the buyers involved in those cases are wanting something for next to nothing.
Sign Top wrote:
>>5. Many buyers post jobs having no clue as to whether they are hard or even possible. That's true. But the market quickly educates them. If they don't pay enough, no one bids and they are forced to raise the price. And vice versa. That's what a free market is all about...it's self correcting.
Do you poll for that reason a job is withdrawn? I'm wondering if the buyer will genuinely pick that if they withdraw without picking a bid. If it were me, I'd probably feel too embarrassed to pick that.
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