Dark Matter mapped
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Andy Brummer wrote:
So in your book partially discovered is the same as unanswerable in principle?
No--the point was, the statement "it's not psuedoscience just because it hasn't been proven" has been used in the reverse: "it's pseudoscience because it hasn't been proven" when dealing with the concepts such as god. So I found it quite humorous that what is deemed to be psuedoscience is apparently determined by one's subjective opinion of the subject matter. Theories of god is psuedoscience, theories of dark matter is not, regardless of the fact that neither are proven or, with current technologies, provable. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh SmithAh, I can see the humor in that. Whomever used the "it's pseudoscience because it hasn't been proven" phrase obviously doesn't understand what pseudoscience is though. That's a completely bogus statement.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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Pete O`Hanlon wrote:
It's incredible what astronomers can do nowadays.
It's not just a job! It's an adventure... well, kinda... :) That was my career direction before I discovered computers. :)
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I discovered computers.
:-D
Nobody can give you wiser advice than yourself. - Cicero ப்ரம்மா
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The point I'm trying to make here is simply that theories should not be presented as facts. They should be presented as theories. For example:
Andy Brummer wrote:
Most galaxies have a uniform distribution of dark matter which produces the rotational pattern described.
You don't know that, and nobody else does either; the existence of dark matter, however likely or helpful in balancing the equations, has not been proven. The above statement, therefore, should be worded something like: "The rotational pattern of most galaxies could be explained by recourse to a uniform distribution of as-yet-undetected dark matter. The actual explanation, of course, may turn out to be something quite different. We simply don't know at this point." When theories are treated as facts, scientific enquiry is stifled, not encouraged.
True, in science's short history there have been theories that were slow to be overturned because scientists were slow to accept change. However, I think what you are proposing is as effective in combating that as putting 15 warning labels on everyday objects is at combating human stupidity. It's essentially the same thing. You have to assume the reader has a basic level of intelligence and isn't going to to take every statement at face value. I would think that giving it a nebulous name like "dark matter" would have been enough for most people.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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It's incredible what astronomers can do nowadays. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6235751.stm[^].
the last thing I want to see is some pasty-faced geek with skin so pale that it's almost translucent trying to bump parts with a partner - John Simmons / outlaw programmer
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before. -
Garth J Lancaster wrote:
Im not sure I was referring to 'uncertainty' or maybe something to do with 'observability' (which between yours and Jeffry's replies will get me to do some more reading, which cant hurt :) )
The uncertainty principle is often confused with the not-quite-so-bizarre "observer effect". The observer effect essentially says that the only way we can observe a thing is to smash some other thing into it and see what happens, which will necessarily change the behavior of the observed item. The uncertainty principle is more forceful - it says that even if we could measure the state of some system infinitely precisely, and in the process modify exactly nothing about the system's state, our calculations regarding the state of the system would still be off by at least a small unknowable factor. The weirdness comes from the math involved in the system, not from some hypothetical inaccuracy in measurement or a "bump" to the measured system. Wikipedia has a pretty good entry on the uncertainty principle. Lots of layman literature about it tends to mix it up with the observer effect, though... BTW: I'm no physicist, nor do I play one. If my statements above are incorrect or improperly skewed in one direction or another, I'd appreciate a slap from a real physicist :)
Russell Morris wrote:
The observer effect essentially says that the only way we can observe a thing is to smash some other thing into it and see what happens, which will necessarily change the behavior of the observed item.
That's the best interpretation of it I've seen. However the early interpretations of it were I know someone is watching me so I have to behave according to a completely different set of rules. The best description I've seen of modern theories about it state that if the state gets entangled with enough additional random states it has the same effect as the traditional observer rules, but I haven't been able to follow that math on that one. You are right about the uncertainty principle.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
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I never saw you type this post! (And nobody saw me replying to it) :-D
-- For External Use Only
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True, in science's short history there have been theories that were slow to be overturned because scientists were slow to accept change. However, I think what you are proposing is as effective in combating that as putting 15 warning labels on everyday objects is at combating human stupidity. It's essentially the same thing. You have to assume the reader has a basic level of intelligence and isn't going to to take every statement at face value. I would think that giving it a nebulous name like "dark matter" would have been enough for most people.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
Andy Brummer wrote:
I would think that giving it a nebulous name like "dark matter" would have been enough for most people.
I don't know - anyone who can take "strange quarks" and "charm quarks" seriously will probably not have any inhibitions about "dark matter" :) . Until they get sued by the DarkBasic people [^]!
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Has anyone ever proposed what dark matter actually is? I mean if we got a box of it what would be in the box? I also assume it would be in our region of space, say within our solar system even?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
I don't see it happening, at least not until it becomes pointless.
Paul Watson wrote:
Has anyone ever proposed what dark matter actually is? I mean if we got a box of it what would be in the box?
Think of it as a an object, lets call it System.DM, and it has full permissions with System.Object plus some other System.Namespaces we are not even aware of yet. (that's the best I can type it as I am just about to retire for the night)
Later, JoeSox "The best stories don't come from 'good vs. bad' but from 'good vs. good.'" – Leo Tolstoy CPMCv1.0 ↔ humanaiproject.org ↔ Last.fm
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
[an apparent gravitational influence] which is what dark matter is.
Not exactly. Dark matter is postulated as something that causes an apparent gravitational influence; it is distinct from the influence which is (one of) its effects. The sun, for example, has a gravitational influence on the objects within it's sphere of influence, but the sun itself is not a gravitational influence of unknown origin, which is what these guys have mapped. I'll say it one last time: they have not mapped "dark matter" - they have mapped a gravitational influence of unknown origin, possibly caused by something like the dark matter they are busy imagining. See the difference? The way you say it presumes the existence of a mysterious, unobserved and unproven thing (dark matter); the way I say it leaves the field open for any plausible explanation (of the gravitational influences), awaiting more data before a decision is made.
The Grand Negus wrote:
they have mapped a gravitational influence of unknown origin, possibly caused by something like the dark matter they are busy imagining.
"The composition of dark matter is unknown, but may include new elementary particles such as WIMPs, axions, and ordinary and heavy neutrinos, as well as astronomical bodies such as dwarf stars, planets collectively called MACHOs, and clouds of nonluminous gas. Current evidence favors models in which the primary component of dark matter is new elementary particles, collectively called non-baryonic dark matter." which basically says, dark matter is unknown. See??? You are arguing against "dark matter" as if it is some mystical confluence of known origin. It is simply an unknown object that we can only see through its gravitational influence. What we are measuring is the gravitational influence. You can say "apparent" all you want, but there is very little "known" that behaves as gravity does, which means you have to jump off a cliff and head into some REALLY strange quantum effects to get "apparent" gravity without gravity. Light doesn't like to bend easily. The easiest explanation of such a large mass of "apparent" gravitational effect is that it is gravity. You might as well hop on the ocean and demand that we stop calling it water, because it only has the appearance of water, but might actually be liquid oxidized copper. :rolleyes:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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The Grand Negus wrote:
they have mapped a gravitational influence of unknown origin, possibly caused by something like the dark matter they are busy imagining.
"The composition of dark matter is unknown, but may include new elementary particles such as WIMPs, axions, and ordinary and heavy neutrinos, as well as astronomical bodies such as dwarf stars, planets collectively called MACHOs, and clouds of nonluminous gas. Current evidence favors models in which the primary component of dark matter is new elementary particles, collectively called non-baryonic dark matter." which basically says, dark matter is unknown. See??? You are arguing against "dark matter" as if it is some mystical confluence of known origin. It is simply an unknown object that we can only see through its gravitational influence. What we are measuring is the gravitational influence. You can say "apparent" all you want, but there is very little "known" that behaves as gravity does, which means you have to jump off a cliff and head into some REALLY strange quantum effects to get "apparent" gravity without gravity. Light doesn't like to bend easily. The easiest explanation of such a large mass of "apparent" gravitational effect is that it is gravity. You might as well hop on the ocean and demand that we stop calling it water, because it only has the appearance of water, but might actually be liquid oxidized copper. :rolleyes:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Let's see if we can agree to this: (1) The scientists in question have developed a map of where the Dark Matter should be if their theories and calculations are correct. (2) This is a good thing. At least now we know where we're most likely to find the stuff, which should be a great aid to future research. (3) The common title of this thread and the article it references, "Dark Matter Mapped", is inaccurate because nobody - including the scientists in question - has located any actual Dark Matter. Actual Dark Matter hasn't been detected yet - postulated, yes, but not actually detected. All of our instruments indicate that there's nothing there, though the behavior of nearby objects indicate that there might be. How's that?
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No Marc, religion does not fall into the same category as dark matter. Theism, the basis of religion, falls under its own weight - it's not even logically self consistent! Furthermore, if anyone comes up with a better and more accurate way of describing the world as we know with ordinary matter, then scientists will drop the dark matter theories. I wish one could say the same about theologians...
-- LOADING...
Joergen Sigvardsson wrote:
... then scientists will drop the dark matter theories.
I seriously doubt about this. Did you know the ammount of money spended on this issues? Here are lot of money from national budget... and the scientists are almost condemned to die sustaining theire theories! :) The same situation is with evolution theory. Many scientists knows it is faulty, but, did someone change scholars textbooks? No.
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It's incredible what astronomers can do nowadays. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6235751.stm[^].
the last thing I want to see is some pasty-faced geek with skin so pale that it's almost translucent trying to bump parts with a partner - John Simmons / outlaw programmer
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before. -
Let's see if we can agree to this: (1) The scientists in question have developed a map of where the Dark Matter should be if their theories and calculations are correct. (2) This is a good thing. At least now we know where we're most likely to find the stuff, which should be a great aid to future research. (3) The common title of this thread and the article it references, "Dark Matter Mapped", is inaccurate because nobody - including the scientists in question - has located any actual Dark Matter. Actual Dark Matter hasn't been detected yet - postulated, yes, but not actually detected. All of our instruments indicate that there's nothing there, though the behavior of nearby objects indicate that there might be. How's that?
Dark matter isn't a definite thing! Dark matter is a something we don't understand. It has nothing to do with "if the theory is correct". You act like it is a fact, true it is not, but nor is it a hypothesis. A theory is something we have evidence for, but there are several possibilities. 1) you say we are not allowed to say "Dark matter" because dark matter means "unknown" and we must say "unknown object we don't understand". You are going to make life very long winded. 2) ALL of our instruments do NOT indicate that nothing is there. All of our current energy spectrum instruments indicate there is nothing there, but there is MEASURABLE influence of gravitational influence in the region beyond which we can explain with our energy measurments. This implies there is something "we don't understand there". So we say "dark matter" which means "something we can measure only by influence, but we don't understand." Translation of your (3) then becomes The common title of this thread and the article it references, "Something we don't understand but can only measure by influence has been mapped by its influence only", is inaccurate because nobody - including scientists in question - has located any actual things we do not understand but measure by influence -- postulated that they don't understand, yes, but not actually detected. All of our instruments indicate there is only things there we understand, though the behavior of nearby objects indicate that there should be something there, therefore we don't understand it, but we cannot say "dark matter" because that implies we don't understand it, so we must say instead, "Something we don't understand and cannot see, but we can see influence related to other things we can see, and can measure, and thus do not understand." Which is the exact meaning of "Dark Matter!" If scientists knew what dark matter was, it wouldn't be "dark matter" it would be quantum phase particles or superstring compact hyperdimensional bodies, or something else. If scientists knew what it was, it WOULD NOT BE DARK MATTER any more! We actually do not fully understand gravity itself, we only measure gravity by its influence on ourselves or other objects. So I guess we should throw away the term gravity because we do not fully understand it, but can only measure it based on its influence on others and refer to it only as "the force which we can measure by influence on other bodies but do not fully understand where and how it comes from." :rolleyes: I like gravity, its shorter.
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While you are not asking me, I would nevertheless like to share some information on this;). There are also something call "dark-energy" which is required to interpretate observations using current cosmological model. You can treat the "dark-matter" as foreground (active part) and the "dark-energy" as the background (vacume, context, etc). The nature of "dark-energy" is one of the most elusive ones to know so far. I had a theory[^] that could pave the way leading to its understanding. But unfortunately, there is no chance for me to further develop it due to some reasons. A long story ...
Wow. I really wish I could understand that. Is that part of what's call the Grand Unified Theory or M-Theory? Are you still working in the physics field? If not, why not? I doubt there are very many people in the world who can help advance that field, so it would be a shame to lose one of them.
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Garth J Lancaster wrote:
wasnt that a Heisenberg principle
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle has to do with specially related properties of a quantum particle. You can measure the position in the x direction and in the y direction as accurately as you want at the same time. However, there is a fundamental limit to the accuracy you can measure the position and the velocity of the particle at the same time, because position in different directions are unrelated, but there is a fundamental relationship between a particles position and it's movement in that direction. It is a simple relationship in the mathematics of quantum mechanics, but there is no analogous object in human experience.
Garth J Lancaster wrote:
the more you observe something the more you are likely to interfere with whats happening
That sounds like a common statement about quantum measurement which has to do with another strange mathematical operation in quantum mechanics. In the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, each particle has two states, observed and unobserved. Depending on it's state it will actually exhibit completely different behavior. For example an observed electron will only exist in one point in space, however unobserved it can be in multiple places at once. It's the weirdest damn thing in the world.
I can imagine the sinking feeling one would have after ordering my book, only to find a laughably ridiculous theory with demented logic once the book arrives - Mark McCutcheon
Andy Brummer wrote:
That sounds like a common statement about quantum measurement which has to do with another strange mathematical operation in quantum mechanics. In the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, each particle has two states, observed and unobserved. Depending on it's state it will actually exhibit completely different behavior. For example an observed electron will only exist in one point in space, however unobserved it can be in multiple places at once. It's the weirdest damn thing in the world.
Sounds like the behavior of code when you try to debug it.:|
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Right now, no. It's 2.37 am, and I have to get to work tomorrow morning. Theology tries to define the knowable (that which can be observed) by means of the unknowable (that which cannot be observed, or even defined: i.e. gods). From there on you can expand a bit further.. I suggest reading anything by George H. Smith for a fully fleshed out explanation.
-- This Episode Has Been Modified To Fit Your Primitive Screen
Dark matter is postulated as something that causes an apparent gravitational influence; it is distinct from the influence which is (one of) its effects.
So, if the universe is the effect, what's the cause? At the root of theism is this scientific question.
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Dark matter isn't a definite thing! Dark matter is a something we don't understand. It has nothing to do with "if the theory is correct". You act like it is a fact, true it is not, but nor is it a hypothesis. A theory is something we have evidence for, but there are several possibilities. 1) you say we are not allowed to say "Dark matter" because dark matter means "unknown" and we must say "unknown object we don't understand". You are going to make life very long winded. 2) ALL of our instruments do NOT indicate that nothing is there. All of our current energy spectrum instruments indicate there is nothing there, but there is MEASURABLE influence of gravitational influence in the region beyond which we can explain with our energy measurments. This implies there is something "we don't understand there". So we say "dark matter" which means "something we can measure only by influence, but we don't understand." Translation of your (3) then becomes The common title of this thread and the article it references, "Something we don't understand but can only measure by influence has been mapped by its influence only", is inaccurate because nobody - including scientists in question - has located any actual things we do not understand but measure by influence -- postulated that they don't understand, yes, but not actually detected. All of our instruments indicate there is only things there we understand, though the behavior of nearby objects indicate that there should be something there, therefore we don't understand it, but we cannot say "dark matter" because that implies we don't understand it, so we must say instead, "Something we don't understand and cannot see, but we can see influence related to other things we can see, and can measure, and thus do not understand." Which is the exact meaning of "Dark Matter!" If scientists knew what dark matter was, it wouldn't be "dark matter" it would be quantum phase particles or superstring compact hyperdimensional bodies, or something else. If scientists knew what it was, it WOULD NOT BE DARK MATTER any more! We actually do not fully understand gravity itself, we only measure gravity by its influence on ourselves or other objects. So I guess we should throw away the term gravity because we do not fully understand it, but can only measure it based on its influence on others and refer to it only as "the force which we can measure by influence on other bodies but do not fully understand where and how it comes from." :rolleyes: I like gravity, its shorter.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
We actually do not fully understand gravity itself, we only measure gravity by its influence on ourselves or other objects. So I guess we should throw away the term gravity because we do not fully understand it, but can only measure it based on its influence on others and refer to it only as "the force which we can measure by influence on other bodies but do not fully understand where and how it comes from." I like gravity, its shorter.
Gravity is the name of a force - not whatever unknown causes that force; see here[^]. That is why I have no objection to the term. The gravitational force exists and can be, and has been, measured. Dark matter is not the name of an observed force, it is the name of the "stuff" that is supposed to be responsible for an observed gravitational force; see here[^]. And rewording my statements so that they are significantly longer and then claiming that my approach is too wordy is nothing but an example of the "straw man" fallacy.
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
We actually do not fully understand gravity itself, we only measure gravity by its influence on ourselves or other objects. So I guess we should throw away the term gravity because we do not fully understand it, but can only measure it based on its influence on others and refer to it only as "the force which we can measure by influence on other bodies but do not fully understand where and how it comes from." I like gravity, its shorter.
Gravity is the name of a force - not whatever unknown causes that force; see here[^]. That is why I have no objection to the term. The gravitational force exists and can be, and has been, measured. Dark matter is not the name of an observed force, it is the name of the "stuff" that is supposed to be responsible for an observed gravitational force; see here[^]. And rewording my statements so that they are significantly longer and then claiming that my approach is too wordy is nothing but an example of the "straw man" fallacy.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Dark matter is not the name of an observed force, it is the name of the "stuff" that is supposed to be responsible for an observed gravitational force; see here[^].
Dark matter is a "term" applied to an unknown object to which we can see observational influence of gravity, but no visible energy is seen over the distances. Because it is unkown there are a dozen theories as to what "dark matter" might be. You are saying we are not allowed to call it dark matter because dark matter is unknown, but we can call it "unknown". We cannot say that we have measured its influence through observation of apparent (meaning appearance, visible, seen) influence, but must say that we observe something unknown having an influence that we can see and measure but can't claim to measure because we don't see the object causing it. Dark matter simply means we don't know what is there, but can observe the influence. That is exactly what is happening, we are observing the influence in a region of space, measuring and qualifying that influence to the best of our abilities. If there were no influence, there would be nothing to measure. What is there, no one knows, and freely admit that they do not know, which is why it is called "dark matter" and not "superstring quantum fields" or what ever the favored theory of the day to explain the influence of "dark matter". When they actually know what it is, it will cease to be dark matter and become the object that is discovered. But until then, we measure the influence, because that **IS** all that we can see. We quantify and measure the influence becuase the influence **IS** visible. We do not know what is causing the influence, so we refrence the dozen theories to explain the visible and measurable phenomon as "dark matter".
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Nice reply, thanks ..
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Also things change as we are watching them
wasnt that a Heisenberg principle - very roughly for us laymen, the more you observe something the more you are likely to interfere with whats happening ?... Ive suggested the same thing in monitoring real-time message flows at 'my shop' 'g'
Ha! That reminds me of something another, wittier programmer here said. He was trying to track down a "Heisenbug"; everytime he tried to trap it, the crash would occur elsewhere.
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Assuming, of course, that there is such a thing as "dark matter". See here[^] for an alternative opinion. The existence of dark matter is an unproven theory - prehaps right, perhaps wrong - but certainly unproven. There is no known test for the detection of dark matter; it's composition is unknown; it is a purely theoretical construct. Which is why no one should speak of "mapping it"; such pseudo-scientific statements are simply misleading.
This sounds a bit like the arguments against believing in a higher power, or God if you prefer.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Which is why no one should speak of "mapping it"; such pseudo-scientific statements are simply misleading.
No one is suggesting that this theory is proven. But it does help to fill in some of the holes in the rest of our observations.
What's in a sig? This statement is false. Build a bridge and get over it. ~ Chris Maunder